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Deacceleration And Turn In Point


jps600rr
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It seems to me that we have a relationship between how hard we brake,downshift,slowdown, and the turn in point should the bike be sliding slightly just before turn in, the harder we are on the brakes the faster it should turn in, but if we release the brake, and then turn does that not lead to a slower turn in?

To me this transition seems to be the most critical of all the issues in maintaining high corner speed.

Is trail braking a consequence of a fast turn in?

 

James.

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It seems to me that we have a relationship between how hard we brake,downshift,slowdown, and the turn in point should the bike be sliding slightly just before turn in, the harder we are on the brakes the faster it should turn in, but if we release the brake, and then turn does that not lead to a slower turn in?

To me this transition seems to be the most critical of all the issues in maintaining high corner speed.

Is trail braking a consequence of a fast turn in?

 

James.

 

The inherent problem with that logic is that when the front end is compressed beyond compliance, you're far more likely to lose traction (and fall down).

 

Turn in is as fast as the rider makes it.

 

Yes, the bike's geometry has a bit to do with it, and having the front compressed and rear extended creates an instability which favors 'twitchiness' which makes the bike want to 'fall' into a turn. However, this same result can be had with a concise input to the bars.

 

Strictly from a turn-in perspective, no, being hard on the brakes will not improve the speed. It's all about rider input.

 

Trail braking can work, and can be effective. However, the amount of concentration rises significantly and the majority of people I see trail-braking can't cope with it and either end up overbraking or falling down.

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It seems to me that we have a relationship between how hard we brake,downshift,slowdown, and the turn in point should the bike be sliding slightly just before turn in, the harder we are on the brakes the faster it should turn in, but if we release the brake, and then turn does that not lead to a slower turn in?

To me this transition seems to be the most critical of all the issues in maintaining high corner speed.

Is trail braking a consequence of a fast turn in?

 

James.

 

The inherent problem with that logic is that when the front end is compressed beyond compliance, you're far more likely to lose traction (and fall down).

 

Turn in is as fast as the rider makes it.

 

Yes, the bike's geometry has a bit to do with it, and having the front compressed and rear extended creates an instability which favors 'twitchiness' which makes the bike want to 'fall' into a turn. However, this same result can be had with a concise input to the bars.

 

 

 

 

Ok just to clarify I break very, very hard, gently let out the brake, and turn with some pressure on the brakes, but the front end is not fully compressed, and I do contersteer the bike wants to turn very fast, which is good.I think this is the fun part about riding, nothing like the feeling of hard braking, it is also a good work out to.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Strictly from a turn-in perspective, no, being hard on the brakes will not improve the speed. It's all about rider input.

 

Trail braking can work, and can be effective. However, the amount of concentration rises significantly and the majority of people I see trail-braking can't cope with it and either end up overbraking or falling down.

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Strictly from a turn-in perspective, no, being hard on the brakes will not improve the speed. It's all about rider input.

 

Trail braking can work, and can be effective. However, the amount of concentration rises significantly and the majority of people I see trail-braking can't cope with it and either end up overbraking or falling down.

 

Trailing the brake: OK, just going to put out one thing here, when the brake is being trailed, does the bike want to hold it's line or run wide? Will there be more or less effort to turn it?

CF

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Strictly from a turn-in perspective, no, being hard on the brakes will not improve the speed. It's all about rider input.

 

Trail braking can work, and can be effective. However, the amount of concentration rises significantly and the majority of people I see trail-braking can't cope with it and either end up overbraking or falling down.

 

Trailing the brake: OK, just going to put out one thing here, when the brake is being trailed, does the bike want to hold it's line or run wide? Will there be more or less effort to turn it?

CF

I understand exactly what your point is, but one can apply the necessary force to the bike to turn it,

but it does take effort, weight lifting has its advantages some times.

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Strictly from a turn-in perspective, no, being hard on the brakes will not improve the speed. It's all about rider input.

 

Trail braking can work, and can be effective. However, the amount of concentration rises significantly and the majority of people I see trail-braking can't cope with it and either end up overbraking or falling down.

 

Trailing the brake: OK, just going to put out one thing here, when the brake is being trailed, does the bike want to hold it's line or run wide? Will there be more or less effort to turn it?

CF

I understand exactly what your point is, but one can apply the necessary force to the bike to turn it,

but it does take effort, weight lifting has its advantages some times.

 

 

In addition to this letting off the brakes, and waiting a short time for the bike to settle means you are gliding.

 

Also a fine touch with the brakes is required, but I think that is a necessary skill to learn.

Having the ability to trail brake to some degree is a big advantage compared to those who have never tried it. many have mastered the throttle. But the brake. is another story.

 

If you have come in too hot staying on the brakes can stop you from running wide.

Also the harder you can brake the deeper you can go into the corner before you turn, because eliminating the glide distance is a significant advantage.

 

i has seen photos of Doug chandler hard on the brakes, while going through a corner.

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Strictly from a turn-in perspective, no, being hard on the brakes will not improve the speed. It's all about rider input.

 

Trail braking can work, and can be effective. However, the amount of concentration rises significantly and the majority of people I see trail-braking can't cope with it and either end up overbraking or falling down.

 

Trailing the brake: OK, just going to put out one thing here, when the brake is being trailed, does the bike want to hold it's line or run wide? Will there be more or less effort to turn it?

CF

The difference in effort you are talking about is so incredibly small on even the most difficult to turn bikes, that I wonder why you find it necessary to use that as an excuse for not trail braking.

 

There are much better reasons for and against trail braking - and they all speak to the specifics of a turn.

 

I have been a disciple of the Code techniques for more years than I can count on both hands, but there are fundamental exceptions to the basic rules that become more and more prominent as the technology advances year after year.

 

Yes, you need to learn the fundamentals, but when the fundamentals start becoming a subset of what works every day for every rider, you need to stop and look at the basic philosophy and the premises behind your assertions.

 

I think you are starting to lose your grip at the school, and you need to be more detailed and explicit in the questions you ask.

 

Personally, I am starting to wonder if the teaching techniques you are using have outlived their usefulness as they are being applied today.

 

The technique and style has incredible merit, going all the way back to at least Socrates, but the technique is violently opposed to any sort of dogma (hence, Socrates never writing a single word...ever. Plato, his student, wrote what he said.)

 

I feel like you are becoming extremely dogmatic and have been that way for too long. I fear you may now be too established to every get back to the roots of thinking that made the initial venture great.

 

Please prove me wrong!

 

I don't want this to be an insult to how incredible your school is, but I think you are losing touch and your thinking has become polluted.

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Hey tfc600,

 

As Cobie said, there are situations where trailbraking can be effective. Keith mentioned decreasing radius corners.

 

However, some general things to keep in mind:

 

Any braking forces being applied will reduce available traction. And, the more compressed the forks are, the less they will be able to perform their intended function of keeping the front tire in contact with the road.

 

In any case, I agree. It takes a very fine touch to effectively use trail braking. A fine touch that most people are not born with and will take many miles of practice to develop.

 

In my opinion, trying to learn and incorporate that fine touch while still learning a basic sense of how fast one can corner or steer without being on the brakes would be confusing and perhaps counter-productive, if not dangerous, for a rider still learning the basics.

 

Cheers,

Racer

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Hey Thor,

 

I can sure get behind your comments regarding dogma vs thinking.

 

Can you be more specific about where the CSS program has fallen into dogmatic training techniques or which fundamental skills that are mere subsets or how those subsets aren't foundational to what works everyday for every rider? (In my opinion, fundamentals are foundational, subset or not.)

 

I'm sure the school would listen to and consider any specific suggestions or ideas you may have. In fact, I recall someone confronting Keith at a Road Atlanta school after GNF some time back about how all the top riders then were usng the rear brake to back into corners "dirttrack" style and a series of Keith Code articles about using the rear brake appearing in RRW just a few weeks later. So, by example, I find the school quite responsive to specific observations and suggestions.

 

I think folks need to keep in mind that racing skills are not the same as riding skills. And riding skills are fundamental and foundational to racing skills.

 

Cheers,

Racer

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I just listened to Keith's new interviews on the home page. Good stuff.

 

Especially the parts where he talks about foundational skills and constantly experimenting with new training techniques on a constant flow of new students.

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On the question of braking, on my CBR600RR I have found the brakes very easy to modulate, it takes a full

hard pull to make the brakes bite hard, small changes in lever pressure only make very small changes in braking until you get to the end of the lever travel. I found on my F4i that the brakes bit harder sooner,

and were much more difficult to modulate.

 

 

I have found from my riding on the street that if I want to slow down when leaned over a light touch on the brakes to start with, and then stand the bike up, as I comes up you brake harder, you have to be progressive about it. Standing the bike up and then braking means you have covered more distance in a given time period. I think what happens on the street is that some peole just give up on the front brake,

and stand it up, and slam on the rear, which is very diffcult to modulate. And off the road we go.

 

Trail braking under race conditions cleary requires a great touch, but I think for the street rider trail braking

has advantages.

 

In may ways it is no different from braking hard in a straight line if you want to stop quickly you need to know how to modulate the brakes, and with a little practise you can get very good.

 

I agree that on the track if you set your entry speed reasonably well you should not have to touch the brakes at all, and you can certainly concentrate on the line, and momentum.

 

I have the DVD, and I still think that the CSS is great.

 

James.

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