michael engel Posted May 6, 2008 Report Share Posted May 6, 2008 what exactly does this mean?? obviously higher corner speed while maintaining the ideal line is preferable so why do people say this? i always took it as a reference to movements i.e slowly shifting my body weight, slowly rolling on the throttle at apex etc.. and as a reference to perception i.e. looking through the turn to decrease the perception of speed or "slow it down" in my head. to me, it should be: slow in=fast out i havent signed my world superbike contract as a factory ducati rider yet so please guys tell me where im getting this wrong Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fossilfuel Posted May 6, 2008 Report Share Posted May 6, 2008 what exactly does this mean?? obviously higher corner speed while maintaining the ideal line is preferable so why do people say this? i always took it as a reference to movements i.e slowly shifting my body weight, slowly rolling on the throttle at apex etc.. and as a reference to perception i.e. looking through the turn to decrease the perception of speed or "slow it down" in my head. to me, it should be: slow in=fast out i havent signed my world superbike contract as a factory ducati rider yet so please guys tell me where im getting this wrong Quote "get the lowest overall time by cornering more slowly so we can get back on the gas earlier. It's always tempting to corner a little faster, but it frequently does not pay off in the context of the rest of the track." Brian Beckman PhD. Sometimes you can only go so fast in to some corners without screwing up your exit. That is why they have those corners, to test your patience. Make up the time somewhere else. I suggest reruns of Kung Fu. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
racer Posted May 7, 2008 Report Share Posted May 7, 2008 what exactly does this mean?? obviously higher corner speed while maintaining the ideal line is preferable so why do people say this? i always took it as a reference to movements i.e slowly shifting my body weight, slowly rolling on the throttle at apex etc.. and as a reference to perception i.e. looking through the turn to decrease the perception of speed or "slow it down" in my head. to me, it should be: slow in=fast out i havent signed my world superbike contract as a factory ducati rider yet so please guys tell me where im getting this wrong The e-ticket is getting on the gas as soon as possible after getting off the brakes and leaned over. The slower, more controlled, you are on the entry, the sooner you can get back on the gas, the faster you will be in the corner and, most important, the better drive you will have out of the corner... which pays dividends all the way to the next corner. Being a little faster for a short distance isn't as important as being fast for a long distance. Don't try to make up time or hang it all out for a short corner, there is little to be gained there. AS opposed to going just a little bit faster in a long corner or a straight away. Go fast in the fast parts and slow in the slow parts. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
michael engel Posted May 8, 2008 Author Report Share Posted May 8, 2008 "lowest overall time by cornering more slowly" say what??? this doesnt make any sense at all. the amount of throttle that can be applied while leaned over is limited (more accurately, the rate at which throttle is applied) but if i am applying the throttle at the same point in the turn (at, just before, or just after the apex depending on the corner) as someone entering slowly how are they going to be faster than me, especially if i have a higher corner speed and we are taking similar lines?? im not doubting the philosophy, im just trying to understand it and im a little slow. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hank Posted May 9, 2008 Report Share Posted May 9, 2008 "lowest overall time by cornering more slowly" say what??? this doesnt make any sense at all. the amount of throttle that can be applied while leaned over is limited (more accurately, the rate at which throttle is applied) but if i am applying the throttle at the same point in the turn (at, just before, or just after the apex depending on the corner) as someone entering slowly how are they going to be faster than me, especially if i have a higher corner speed and we are taking similar lines?? im not doubting the philosophy, im just trying to understand it and im a little slow. My take: Slow in, quick flick, less time in full lean = sooner up out of lean and faster back on the gas, quicker to next corner. My class is in 11 days. I will find out then. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
racer Posted May 9, 2008 Report Share Posted May 9, 2008 "lowest overall time by cornering more slowly" say what??? this doesnt make any sense at all. the amount of throttle that can be applied while leaned over is limited (more accurately, the rate at which throttle is applied) but if i am applying the throttle at the same point in the turn (at, just before, or just after the apex depending on the corner) as someone entering slowly how are they going to be faster than me, especially if i have a higher corner speed and we are taking similar lines?? im not doubting the philosophy, im just trying to understand it and im a little slow. OK, when I say "slow" in, it is a relative expression. I should say, slow enough to be well in control and the bike settled, hence, able to flick it faster which enables you to get back on the gas sooner as opposed to charging in, out of balance, running wide and having to wait while the bike settles before you can get back on the gas. The amount of throttle applied while leaned over is limited not only by how far you can twist your wrist or the rate at which the throttle can be opened at full lean to acheive 60/40 best balance for best traction, it is also limted by time (how long) on the throttle. How long you can be in the throttle is dictated by how soon you can get back on the gas. And, the fact is, if you are going too fast on the entry, you aren't able to get back on the throttle at the same point in the turn as someone who is a bit slower and able to flick it faster. Also, I think you should always be getting back in the gas before the apex and accelerating through the turn. I can't think of a turn where that isn't true. How do you define "apex"? racer Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fossilfuel Posted May 9, 2008 Report Share Posted May 9, 2008 "lowest overall time by cornering more slowly" say what??? this doesnt make any sense at all. the amount of throttle that can be applied while leaned over is limited (more accurately, the rate at which throttle is applied) but if i am applying the throttle at the same point in the turn (at, just before, or just after the apex depending on the corner) as someone entering slowly how are they going to be faster than me, especially if i have a higher corner speed and we are taking similar lines?? im not doubting the philosophy, im just trying to understand it and im a little slow. OK, when I say "slow" in, it is a relative expression. I should say, slow enough to be well in control and the bike settled, hence, able to flick it faster which enables you to get back on the gas sooner as opposed to charging in, out of balance, running wide and having to wait while the bike settles before you can get back on the gas. The amount of throttle applied while leaned over is limited not only by how far you can twist your wrist or the rate at which the throttle can be opened at full lean to acheive 60/40 best balance for best traction, it is also limted by time (how long) on the throttle. How long you can be in the throttle is dictated by how soon you can get back on the gas. And, the fact is, if you are going too fast on the entry, you aren't able to get back on the throttle at the same point in the turn as someone who is a bit slower and able to flick it faster. Also, I think you should always be getting back in the gas before the apex and accelerating through the turn. I can't think of a turn where that isn't true. How do you define "apex"? racer What about looking at it from the standpoint of the shape of the turn? If you are coming into a combination turn such as a decreasing radius into a right hander. There is no point in getting exited coming into the first turn because it will screw up your line for the right hander? So wouldn't it be better to make sure you come into the d.r. turn slow enough so that you can drive out for the correct line of the r.h. In this case "Slow in - Fast out" ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
racer Posted May 9, 2008 Report Share Posted May 9, 2008 What about looking at it from the standpoint of the shape of the turn? If you are coming into a combination turn such as a decreasing radius into a right hander. There is no point in getting exited coming into the first turn because it will screw up your line for the right hander? So wouldn't it be better to make sure you come into the d.r. turn slow enough so that you can drive out for the correct line of the r.h. In this case "Slow in - Fast out" ? Right. Absolutely. A similar scenario could be a turn that loses camber between entry and exit whereby you'd want to plan your approach to be at max lean at the point of least or negative camber. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
michael engel Posted May 10, 2008 Author Report Share Posted May 10, 2008 "lowest overall time by cornering more slowly" say what??? this doesnt make any sense at all. the amount of throttle that can be applied while leaned over is limited (more accurately, the rate at which throttle is applied) but if i am applying the throttle at the same point in the turn (at, just before, or just after the apex depending on the corner) as someone entering slowly how are they going to be faster than me, especially if i have a higher corner speed and we are taking similar lines?? im not doubting the philosophy, im just trying to understand it and im a little slow. My take: Slow in, quick flick, less time in full lean = sooner up out of lean and faster back on the gas, quicker to next corner. My class is in 11 days. I will find out then. got it! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
racer Posted May 10, 2008 Report Share Posted May 10, 2008 My take: Slow in, quick flick, less time in full lean = sooner up out of lean and faster back on the gas, quicker to next corner. A-HA! Right. The faster you flick, the sooner you can get back on the gas and begin to accelerate and/or the less lean angle you can use so the more throttle you can apply throughout the corner AND/OR spend less time at max lean and begin the exit phase and hard throttle sooner. Especially important on a bigger bike that has lots of horsepower to put down! Let me say it again for my own benefit... Slow in... sacrifice a little speed for a faster flick = earlier throttle and higher corner speed AND/OR less lean and more throttle throughout the corner AND/OR less time at max lean and the sooner you can pick it up and whack it WFO! Hey, I think I'm starting to get it. All those years on little bikes got my head wired for turn entry and corner speed. Never really turned it around to think about how a quicker flick could affect my exit ... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fossilfuel Posted May 11, 2008 Report Share Posted May 11, 2008 My take: Slow in, quick flick, less time in full lean = sooner up out of lean and faster back on the gas, quicker to next corner. A-HA! Right. The faster you flick, the sooner you can get back on the gas and begin to accelerate and/or the less lean angle you can use so the more throttle you can apply throughout the corner AND/OR spend less time at max lean and begin the exit phase and hard throttle sooner. Especially important on a bigger bike that has lots of horsepower to put down! Let me say it again for my own benefit... Slow in... sacrifice a little speed for a faster flick = earlier throttle and higher corner speed AND/OR less lean and more throttle throughout the corner AND/OR less time at max lean and the sooner you can pick it up and whack it WFO! Hey, I think I'm starting to get it. All those years on little bikes got my head wired for turn entry and corner speed. Never really turned it around to think about how a quicker flick could affect my exit ... As usual Racer...a great response. The "quick flick" is STANDARD OPERATING PROCEDURE for CSS and should be for anyone looking to improve their lap times but.....I can give you one example where there might be opposing theories of approach, Barber turn 13? and 14? if you come down off the tunnel turn flat out, you are leaned over through the apex of 13 coming into 14 which is the turn at pit out. WHy should I try to pick the bike up for the entry of 14 to "flick" when I could stay at maximum lean angle for both....It seems to me if I am quick flicking in that corner before the last turn for the straight then I am not going fast enough? Is this true? or do I need further counciling from the "Cornering Master"? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
racer Posted May 11, 2008 Report Share Posted May 11, 2008 The "quick flick" is STANDARD OPERATING PROCEDURE for CSS and should be for anyone looking to improve their lap times but.....I can give you one example where there might be opposing theories of approach, Barber turn 13? and 14? if you come down off the tunnel turn flat out, you are leaned over through the apex of 13 coming into 14 which is the turn at pit out. WHy should I try to pick the bike up for the entry of 14 to "flick" when I could stay at maximum lean angle for both....It seems to me if I am quick flicking in that corner before the last turn for the straight then I am not going fast enough? Alright, I've never been to Barber, but, I pulled up their website and I am looking at an elevation drawing of the track that appears to include camber. (Man, that looks like a cool track!) So, my comments are based on what I can see in this drawing. We (you, me, my dog and CSS) have been discussing a fundamental skill applied to single turns in isolation (easiest way to communicate and grasp fundamental concept) ... as opposed to more advanced combinations of turns that require a slightly more complex approach. So, T13 looks like a dip with some camber as you approach T14 that appears to sweep uphill and due to the elevation change and camber could effectively create a continuous decreasing radius situation. Or perhaps what appears to be DR but effectively is CR or only mildly DR. Not sure what gear you are in or how fast or how much the hill affects acceleration, ie. how much speed do you actually gain up hill toward the crest at the transition to entry for 14a? Do you upshift on the hill? Do you need to brake or downshift for 14a? It looks like there is a lot of camber through there. I don't know if that is exaggerated on the track map or if that is to scale or what. So... it sounds like you are saying that you personally are able to simply maintain lean angle or lean it over a little more for 14a without picking it up to "reset" like a double apex? Apologies for my lack of track knowledge there. Can you give me more detailed info, ie. gear, rpm's, gear changes, braking, etc? racer Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fossilfuel Posted May 12, 2008 Report Share Posted May 12, 2008 The "quick flick" is STANDARD OPERATING PROCEDURE for CSS and should be for anyone looking to improve their lap times but.....I can give you one example where there might be opposing theories of approach, Barber turn 13? and 14? if you come down off the tunnel turn flat out, you are leaned over through the apex of 13 coming into 14 which is the turn at pit out. WHy should I try to pick the bike up for the entry of 14 to "flick" when I could stay at maximum lean angle for both....It seems to me if I am quick flicking in that corner before the last turn for the straight then I am not going fast enough? Alright, I've never been to Barber, but, I pulled up their website and I am looking at an elevation drawing of the track that appears to include camber. (Man, that looks like a cool track!) So, my comments are based on what I can see in this drawing. We (you, me, my dog and CSS) have been discussing a fundamental skill applied to single turns in isolation (easiest way to communicate and grasp fundamental concept) ... as opposed to more advanced combinations of turns that require a slightly more complex approach. So, T13 looks like a dip with some camber as you approach T14 that appears to sweep uphill and due to the elevation change and camber could effectively create a continuous decreasing radius situation. Or perhaps what appears to be DR but effectively is CR or only mildly DR. Not sure what gear you are in or how fast or how much the hill affects acceleration, ie. how much speed do you actually gain up hill toward the crest at the transition to entry for 14a? Do you upshift on the hill? Do you need to brake or downshift for 14a? It looks like there is a lot of camber through there. I don't know if that is exaggerated on the track map or if that is to scale or what. So... it sounds like you are saying that you personally are able to simply maintain lean angle or lean it over a little more for 14a without picking it up to "reset" like a double apex? Apologies for my lack of track knowledge there. Can you give me more detailed info, ie. gear, rpm's, gear changes, braking, etc? racer I come over the tunnel in 4th gear and on the throttle through turn 13 apex....you are correct, on camber, uphill where the hill actually scrubs some speed...(I love this part of the track) I shift into third gear before the entrance of 14 and maintain smooth throttle through the turn....let me also say that my gearing is not right and I am in the process of changing this for the next track day. I need to go up a couple in the rear. There might be a slight lifting of the bike before the turn in point where I am shifting into third but not much at all. Since you have a map in hand, look at the apex of thirteen and draw a line to the turn in point of 14....I was thinking it might be possible to pick the bike up for the turn in point and flick it but it just seems like that is to much movement. Now if it were you or KC or a CSS instructor you might be so hot through thirteen that you have to actually stand the bike up and squeeze like holy hell to scrub enough speed off to enter 14... but i have watched multiple AMA races in person and playback dvr and don't see to many doing this at this part of the track..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
racer Posted May 13, 2008 Report Share Posted May 13, 2008 The map on the Barber site calls the hill T-14 and the right at the top T-14a. I get the idea you are calling the hill, "the hill", and the right turn at the top T-14. So, based on that, I take it that you end up to the far left side going up the hill and basically stay there until the top where you find yourself in good position to enter "14" still leaned over where you must at least roll out a bit and downshift before getting back into the gas for 14 (I assume). Yeah, the whole point of flicking is getting from straight up and down or from a previous lean angle to a new lean angle. If you are already mostly leaned over and in a good position, the only reason to pick it up would be to brake or find a better line for 14 which you already say you don't see the pro's doing. Honestly, you will probably learn more watching them than by me looking at a track map, but, I am thinking that unless you are going pretty slow at the top of the hill, you must need to lean at least a tad more for 14 even with a lot of camber. But, it is hard ot know without seeing the track in real life., Perhaps I will dig up a video online later. Good luck, racer Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
racer Posted May 14, 2008 Report Share Posted May 14, 2008 OK, I found this on-bike video "hot lap" of a CSS student at Barber. He's going really, really slow, but, the turns are labeled on screen and I get a better idea of how Turn 14/14a works. http://video.aol.com/video-detail/superbik...457?icid=acvsv2 This youtube link of the same video lets me go fullscreen: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
racer Posted May 14, 2008 Report Share Posted May 14, 2008 Oh, and by the way, Barber looks freaking AWESOME! I am SO adding it to my "to do" list. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
racer Posted May 14, 2008 Report Share Posted May 14, 2008 OK, so... I am thinking that someone who is really on it in the right gear will definitely be accelerating up the hill and needing to lift up a tad to brake a bit and downshift for 14a. In the meantime, ride the right line and get your gearing sorted. Ask a local racer what they are running. It should really help your drive out of all the corners. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
racer Posted May 15, 2008 Report Share Posted May 15, 2008 The "quick flick" is STANDARD OPERATING PROCEDURE for CSS and should be for anyone looking to improve their lap times but.....I can give you one example where there might be opposing theories of approach... Hey fossilfuel, Check out a part of Chapter 17 in TOTW II called "Track Positioning" (p. 75 in my copy). I think it might address your question of SOP conflict here. r Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
roadman Posted May 15, 2008 Report Share Posted May 15, 2008 Hi! I've been following the thread about Barber You might find Dave's video from a NESBA Track Day last year interesting. http://www.lowsideracing.com/Videos/ Scroll down to 2007_11_12 NESBA Barber Schooled By Skip.wmv and play it. He starts 14a about 1:28 on the video. I'm a novice rider. For me 14a and 14b are two turns. Barber is a wonderful track. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
racer Posted May 15, 2008 Report Share Posted May 15, 2008 Now THAT'S more like it! Thanks for that, Roadman. Barber labels these turns 14 and 14a. So... no downshift for 14a as it is labeled by Barber. I can't see if he is dragging the brake at all but he rolls out on the hill well before the entry to 14a. It looks like Skip runs it a bit deeper. Still couldn't see his brake lever. I think if it were me I would be doing some braking while leaned over there and then leaning in more for the tighter part of the turn. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
roadman Posted May 15, 2008 Report Share Posted May 15, 2008 Now THAT'S more like it! Thanks for that, Roadman. Barber labels these turns 14 and 14a. So... no downshift for 14a as it is labeled by Barber. I can't see if he is dragging the brake at all but he rolls out on the hill well before the entry to 14a. It looks like Skip runs it a bit deeper. Still couldn't see his brake lever. I think if it were me I would be doing some braking while leaned over there and then leaning in more for the tighter part of the turn. Oops! Right, 14 and 14a. I'm not sure how Dave is geared. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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