Cobie Fair
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Posts posted by Cobie Fair
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I hope we go over recoveries before that then we can count it as extra credit =)Come say hello when you get there, I'll know who to bump on the trackExtra credit, perfect, hadn't thought of that!!
C
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JB,
Most of the references you list with Keith, he refers to the bike already being in the turn, and coming back onto the throttle as soon as possible, after the steering is completed. The last one, page 29, he is talking specifically about high speed turn entries, and lists the turns he's takling about, like the kink at Road America for example. On page 30, " In many cases the rider finds he never had to roll off completely ".
Very specific turns/situations, and how to handle them.
There is nothing wrong with bringing the idle up to 3 or 4k, it will have an effect (even at higher RPMs). This is covered in Soft Science.
Answer a few questions for me: will the bike turn better with weight on the nose, off throttle, front end compressed a little, steeper steering angle?
Is it pretty busy to try and come into the gas and throttle at the same time, and make that smooth?
Will the bike run wider than it would, if some throttle is on at turn entry, than if the throttle is off?
We are heading to some schools in Vegas, very limited Forum time from now until Tuesday, try and get back as soon as I can.
Best,
CF
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A highside is when the rear tire loses grip, normally under acceleration coming out of a corner, and suddenly regains traction. It causes a compression in the rear shock, along with the tires being out of normal position changing the angle of the motorcycle, with a quick release pushing the seat, and the rider, up forcefully. Since you're weight is already forward, and your back end is over the point of launch, it flips you over.
Decent description for sure. The key is the sudden snapping back, sudden regaining traction. That is where bike and rider often part ways.
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so the tires will give me a warning before they slip, if their warm and i add throttle too much right?
If you don't get too greedy with it, they will give you warning. I was just re-reading the chapters in Twist 2 on this, good stuff if you haven't looked it over lately. He covers all the different pieces, and what the warnings/results of not having good T/Control.
But if it's good, you will not get a rude surprise--that is also assuming you aren't making other errors at the same time.
C
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JB,
OK, a short quote from Twist 2, page 25:
"There are some additional guidelines. Normally riders don't get back onto the throttle until after the steering is completed. This makes sense. During the steering process, it is very difficult to work back into the throttle smoothly enough to keep from jerking the bike and upsetting it. To meet the throttle standard, steering is completed before you start to get it back on."
The chapter is on throttle control, chapter 5. Best to take a look at the whole thing, get all the other data he has there, in sequence.
There is the additional point of the line it takes, discussed a bit more earlier. If you get a chance to do some riding in the next few days, see if you can try it both ways (throttle on, or rolling on while you turn) and then letting the bike finish the turning, then begin the roll on. Hey, is it still decent riding weather where you are?
Let us know if you get a chance to try it out.
C
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#4 is the statement you're looking for "4. Reducing the lag between off brakes and on gas. The moment you release the brake there will be a lag as you orient yourself to the speed you have. Focusing on that lag can shorten it."
I made a little ditty for myself. Here's the expanded version: Off gas, Brake and shift, Look, Gas, Steer, Roll out. IMHO the gap Keith refers to is in my "look".
JB,
Doing the gas before the steering--this can cause problems, and we work on fixing them at the school all the time. There is a too early on the throttle mate.
C
Okay, how about....change "gas" to "maintain entry speed with a leeetle gas". (LOL)
Except for the turns that one enters with the gas already on (like a faster turn following a slower one), it's the standard action to be off it all the way. A major skill is how quickly the bike can be turned, and that gets comprimised with not enough weight on the front.
C
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#4 is the statement you're looking for "4. Reducing the lag between off brakes and on gas. The moment you release the brake there will be a lag as you orient yourself to the speed you have. Focusing on that lag can shorten it."
I made a little ditty for myself. Here's the expanded version: Off gas, Brake and shift, Look, Gas, Steer, Roll out. IMHO the gap Keith refers to is in my "look".
JB,
Doing the gas before the steering--this can cause problems, and we work on fixing them at the school all the time. There is a too early on the throttle mate.
C
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Biran,
No worries, we won't be insulted, for sure you should meet Keith. He is, with very rare exception, at all the schools. You can for sure ask when you sign up, and let it be known if it is a make/brake issue, but like I said, he's there for just about all of them.
Laguna Seca: that is about the most popular track, and we only get a few dates there. So, watch the web page, starting in a about 10 days daily. When the schedule comes out, sign up THAT DAY. It typically sells out very fast.
Come say hello when you get there, I'll know who to bump on the track
Best,
Cobie
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Just to get it out here, what exactly is a highside? Anyone got a good concise definition of what one is?
CF
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Guys--we are posting at the same time, that keeps it interesting. A reminder that this is a friendly discussion, let's keep it polite.
Regarding being off the throttle, at turn in: doesn't the bike turn better when off throttle? Front compressed, steeper steering angle, more weight on the front, it turns better than with no weight on it, no?
CF
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well it happened extremely fast. like i was sliding and then immidiatly tried to remember what happened but couldnt. I didnt just gun the throttle on though. when i set my lean i was at the point where i slowly roll on but i cant remember anything much afetr that. but low slides are rarely caused by the tires right? its mostly rider error.
Skyler,
Yeah, in the end it's going to be rider error, hard to esape that one
OK, here's the deal: if the throttle is coming on nicely (you said you didn't gun it), and the tires were warmed up, then the tires will give you a nice warning, you won't all of a sudden be down. But, if a little lean angle is added at the same time==deadly combo. Keith's article on the bands of traction covers some good info on this, you just go past the different bands and are sliding, thinking, "Now what the hell just happened there?" Irritating for sure.
C
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I lowsided coming out of turn 4 at Barber. Think that's the right number, the tight hairpin. I was well through the corner, started to give it some gas and next thing I know I'm sliding along the asphalt. Not a tire problem or anything just overcame the traction on the rear tire while still leaned well over and away it went. The bike and I ended up in the grass on the far side of the gravel trap which reinforces the notion that the problem was coming out of the turn, not going into it.
OK, so in this case, were you adding lean angle at the same time as you were coming into the throttle? Even just a little bit?
CF
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OK, back to one of the points on having the throttle on when entering a turn, and my question: will the bike hold the line, or run a wider at turn entry? It runs wide doesn't it? The more throttle, the wider it would run. That running wide at turn entry, won't it have to be "paid for" later in the turn with more lean angle added?
Anyone want to bite on that?
C
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Greetings,I'm Albert from NY. This year I attended Levels I and II. Level I at Pocono in May and then level II at Mid-Ohio in August. I attended the school in 1990 at Loudon, NH. I currently ride a 2004 CBR 1000RR and look forward to doing level III, likely in early '09.
Hi Albert,
Good to hear from you, and back after a long time off! I was at the schools in '90, not sure if we met then or not.
How do you like the changes in the school since then?
Best,
Cobie
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Hey,
My names Brian. I currently live in British Columbia, Canada and just moved from Nova Scotia, Canada. I've been riding a 2004 Ninja 500R for 2 years now. I took a Kawasaki High Performance Riding School back on the east coast at the end of last season. And who would have guessed now I'm hooked =) .
I'm waiting on purchasing a new CBR 600RR for the track and plan on taking the West Coast Super Bike School this year.
The G/F and I have decided were most likely going to check out Cali for our next vacation. So I'm going to plan around trying to attend a class at CSS. on the way.
That's all for now,
brianp
Hi Brian,
First off, welcome to the forum! BC, a pretty place, my dad is from there.
Let us know know if you have any questions about the school, we travel quite a bit, and do a number of tracks in Calif, as well as the rest of the US. The new schedule is being working on now and should be ready in about 2-3 weeks, and up on the web page.
Best,
Cobie
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I'd like to quote Keith Code in saying, "It doesn't matter what you ride or where you ride, the principles remain the same"
I think that performing turn-in at maintenance throttle would work because:
1- The Chassis and suspension are settled
2- No drivetrain lash when getting back in the gas leaned over
I haven't done Lvl1 yet, so take this with a grain of salt, but isn't that one of the goals of the Throttle Control, no brakes drill? To train the rider to go into the corner at maintenance throttle, ON the gas?
Thanks Slowass for bringing up your "basic" question. Topics like this help us all.
If you roll on the throttle while turning in, or have it on already, then what happens to the line the bike will take? In other words, does it run wide if you have throttle on at the beginning of the turn? If it does run wide, how does one handle that later in the turn?
CF
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It is at the Calabogie Motorsport Park here in Ontario Canada. I did complete Phase 1 of FAST racing school up here in Eastern Canada, the year before and have plans to attend some more schooling this spring.
This video is the fourth track day on this track and it is 3 session of the day before lunch. My first track day this year was a little scary with the organization I went with ( lack of organization). However, the rest of my track days were with Team promotion and my first day with them, the coaches spent the morning sessions showing me the lines on the track. Two thumbs to them for that.
The corner itself in a left hand decreasing radius going downhill. The apex is blind. Here is a discription from the web site: A fast approach into a long, sweeping, left handed entry (63º, 100m radius) is followed by a drastically tightening apex sector (47º, 62 m) and an even tighter final radius (109º, 23m). They call the corner temptation.
Andre
Hi Andre,
Got it. To recap briefly, you ran wide, and looks like you rode it off the tires. The bike went down before it went off the track.
There is a lot of technique that goes into riding well, and we won't be able to cover the whole gamut here. Many on this forum have read Keith's 3rd book, Twist of the Wrist 2. Have you by chance? Having a look at Chapter 23, the Two Step, might shed some light on what happned (pg 98).
There are other things that could be the major contributing factor, but without talking with you, can't just give a blanket statement/critique, and really have it be accurate.
Best,
CF
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oh sorry.. it just looks cool. but im level 4 and practicing body positioning mainly hip flick. but on turn 1 of big willow its pretty fast and my tires stuck. turn 3 i added more lean angle and the bike slide out. i was just wondering if tires could be the problem. i know its mostly the rider who adds gas too fast or is adjusting lean throughout the corner
Here is the deadly combo--adding lean angle, adding throttle at the same time.
If the tires were warmed up (both sides), and you said you added lean angle, wonder if a little throttle was coming on at the same time. We see it a lot.
Best,
CF
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October 25, 2008 was the first day of the rest of my riding career. I completed level one and the light has switched on.
I have to admit that I was expecting a lot because of how highly recomended CSS came to me.... the bar was realy high and I was even a bit skeptical that my expectations would be met... All I can say is that CSS surpassed my highest expectations.
Although only completing level one, my riding has improved 100%. How can that be.... It is because the guys and girls at the shcools take all the guess work out of riding a sport bike.
The real proof is in my riding. The day after the corse I joined the boys for my usual sunday canyon run.... before I could barley keep up on a good day, (most guys have been riding way longer than me) now after only one day of coching, I was keeping up with 50% in reserve wile everyone els were trying to hard... I have a feeling everyone I have ever rode with will soon be attending CSS.
I am actually foaming at the mouth to get in for level 2-4!!!!!!
NICE!
Not so sure about the foaming part though.
Best,
Cobie
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We just finished our fall CODERACE school, and what a blast. A great fall day at Streets of Willow Springs (perfect weather), 2 days of practice, followed by racing at the end of each day. Day two had a very entertaining race for the lead, right down to the last turn. Margin of victory: I have to verify, but 500th of a second was mentioned. The winner on the podium had his stuffed dinosaur there, and weighs, what-- 70 lbs? Classic. 2nd place, young gun from AZ, on a GSXR-600 (it was fast).
Variety? Racers from all over, and covering the spectrum. Kids on 125 GP bikes, 3 of them.--can you say high corner speed?--riduculous! they go past you and you have to just laugh, while you think, "Ah, I can't get in there that fast." A father and son from AZ. An Irish computer dude, that works in Japan (he took 8 seconds off his last race school). A mother, (and engineer) that broke 1:30 (did two '28's in the race, finished 6th or 7th?).
Crashes==0
Fun factor==out the roof.
But that's just my opinon!
Best,
Cobie
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OK, here's what happens; I went out for a ride today to work on this. I can do the clutchless downshifting and it's almost as smooth as the upshifting. The little bit of throttle adjustment to unweight the transmission for downshifting is similar to what you need for upshifting. The one thing I need to be careful of is to make sure my foot isn't holding any pressure on the shift lever in between gears- if I don't quite get it up then it won't shift when I push down. I was not going very fast and the engine speed wasn't high. I can drive this was in normal traffic to change speed although coming up to a light I tend to not go through all the gears but rather hold the clutch in and just shift all the way down to first. The time I find it does not work is if I'm braking hard because then my throttle is not on at all and while holding the brake lever on I don't think it's practical to do much of any throttle management. Right? In this case I just use the clutch and shift.
Another experiment I did was when there was a bit of throttle on and I wanted to upshift. I was thinking about the blip thing. If you hold the throttle steady and pull in the clutch, the engine speed goes up- quickly. So what I did was hold the throttle steady, pulled in the clutch and shifted and let the clutch out, all very quickly. This worked out to be pretty smooth if you do it all as one quick action.
Holding the clutch in and throttle on is called "speed shifting" and is hard on the clutch, wears it out too soon. It's not needed and doesn't really help anything. Just roll off the throttle for a moment, shift the gear.
When I do commute, one can go from 1st-6th, around town, and back down, never going over 5 or 6K (usually 3-4k), shifting as needed up or down. It's easy, give it a try.
CF
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I agree, Cobie - lots of good info here.
I'm motivated to make my next eye appointment now!!
Thanks to all!!
Let us us know what you do and how it works.
CF
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I agree, Cobie - lots of good info here.
I'm motivated to make my next eye appointment now!!
Thanks to all!!
Let us us know what you do and how it works.
CF
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I agree, Cobie - lots of good info here.
I'm motivated to make my next eye appointment now!!
Thanks to all!!
Let us us know what you do and how it works.
CF
Hello / Intro
in School Questions/General Discussion
Posted
Hi Teg,
Glad you are aboard, and the schools went well in the UK (expected nothing less, Andy and his lads are keen at doing it right).
Sounds like you've had good success with your riding, and your approach, please feel free to chime in with questions/answers/opinions at any point.
Best,
Cobie