Jaybird180

My mind is blown because I never considered two turns.

Come to think of it: The track where the hairpin is T1 I haven’t been able to figure a good TP or Apex. I feel lost with no plan except for where I want to setup for T2.

I tried to crack the gas as soon as my lean angle is set. Then I tried to wait until I had assured a tight line exit. It gave me the desired trajectory but it felt weird to wait so long to get on the gas. Trailbraking until I was on line didn’t seem to help much either. See...all over the place.

Subscribing to this topic

Looking for thought-line suggestions for taking 180 degree turns as I seem to be inconsistent in doing it. I have them at a several tracks I attend. I know that the basic rule is to find a line that allow for application of Throttle Control Rule 1 - Great. But it still doesn't explain why I feel like I'm trying so many different things and getting results that are lackluster and at extremes; I'd like to reduce the variations so I can properly evaluate. I think my entry speeds are ball-park consistent, which retrospectively are lower than I want; I think I can change that next time I go out by improving on my Quick Flick overall. At one track the hairpin is at the end of the longest straight and if done correctly, I can get to the turnpoint for T2. I don't attend this track as often. At the other track it's mid-circuit and what precedes it is a sweeping left. What I feel is amiss, is the exit of the sweeper can become a compromise of getting the right attack angle for the hairpin which exits onto a chicane that can be straightened if using an inside tight line. When I get the hairpin "wrong" on this track, I'm ALWAYS too low in RPM and downshifting on corner entry there is tricky because my line removes the straight, I have been going from the sweeping left to a hard right in a single motion - staying on the left side of the tire too long (hmmm...that's probably a clue?)

Is it possible that this topic would be better served in the Cornering section of the site?

Ironically I watched TOTWII DVD again just this last week and I caught that part too. What was said is that the braking action deforms the tire, creating a countersteering action that has a tendency to stand the bike up. Many riders are too tense on the bars and they resist or are insensitive to this tendency. Bike geometry, road surface, tire profile and pressure can all affect how much of the tendency is fed back to the rider. (edit: I did take a little creative license for effect of clarifying the point)

Welcome to the forum Travis. Not a topic that if often discussed here, but there are a number of custom shops and discussion groups that specialize in the Hayabusa, being a very popular bike to customize and "trick out". It's very likely that you're going to have to spend a little bit of time finding out and being able to describe what you're looking for when you say "better than stock" as each part is designed to perform a certain function and there are always trade-offs. I took the opportunity to lookup a little about the model and learned that after a 20 year run, 2019 will be the last production year for the bike, as the decision was made to cease production due to no longer meeting Euro4 emission standards. I also find it amazing that even though production ran for 20 years, there is only 2 "generations" of the bike which tells me that Suzuki got so many things right when they designed it from the beginning...or the mod community changes it to suit the owner's needs and would rather keep it as a well-known quantity. So you've got options out there and a large knowledge base to get what you want from your bike. Please stick around awhile and tell us how your bike turns and how you can get more from it and from yourself. I'll share this little anecdote before closing: that years ago, I was doing a business presentation to a motorcycle club and some back-forth bantering started and the main instigator rode a Hayabusa- I ended the melee to get back to my presentation by saying that his bike couldn't turn. In retrospect, that was probably mean to say but it was the prevailing opinion in the magazines and .... in the room. He sat back down and remained quiet thereafter.

I almost feel ashamed for asking this question, but putting that aside here goes anyways: Starting at L1 as the sessions build from classroom to on track and back to classroom, etc is the student supposed to apply each previous drill into the next session? I'm thinking "yes", as it would totally rebuild the riders skill and making it all fit together as a puzzle. I'm thinking "no", because the new skill may not have had sufficient time to become part of the rider's skillset and may be a distraction to applying the new drill the student (rider) should be working on.

Thanks

Ok @faffi. I understand. I think I took a break from the forum around that time but I did see a few posts from you that puzzled me. You filled in the blanks.

Curious about your use of this technique. Please share.

Brake-Throttle-Turn implies, as a sequence of actions a passage of time. With the passage of time there also means that there is an interval between each successive action. We can agree that for any rider, bike, weight, lean angle, etc (add specifics) there is a maximum speed at which a turn could be negotiated successfully without running wide off or off track. It is more erratic to reduce speed only to add back what you have scrubbed off. From this viewpoint this technique has limited benefits for a track day rider. But I believe that in a race could serve a strategic or tactical purpose. For example: inside block-passing or as a tight group of 3 vying for position.

I tried it once. Brake-Throttle-Turn. There’s a loop (or used to be) near me called “Harry S” (Truman Drive) a couple of long sweeping right turns, banked a little -a good place on the street to get the knee down. I found it could be a useful technique. I abandoned it when it betrayed me on the final left turn at home that day after many laps on Harry S- I lost the front trailing the brakes off (something slippery? - I felt it go- almost in slow motion) and broke my foot peg and a small foot bone. I found that the technique wasn’t at fault, my timing and application of it was, but it as a trained reaction contributed to the inability to recover after I felt the front bite again when the brakes released and the wheel roll. I needed that tire to press on the pavement and when the throttle was applied there wasn’t enough front traction to keep the rubber side down.

Cobie you bring up a good point. Unfortunately when the throttle is on, two things are happening that impacts turn radius: geometry and gyroscopic effect. We can account for geometry by creating a chassis setup to accommodate the style. I think it would be harder (but measurable) to account to gyroscopic forces. I don’t know if more bar pressure can overcome the penalty.

Ergonomic changes are often influenced by marketing strategies. Manufacturer target marketing data is considered Top Secret in most any industry and rightly so, when you have a manufacturer competing on an international scale. For someone considering a BMW, unless you follow the brand and model development you wouldn't know that they made an ergonomic change from 2019 > 2020 and may think simply to buy the latest model your pockets can handle. I'll keep this in mind when I'm ready to buy.

I know the video. I know the tuner and have had my bike tuned by him. I've consulted with him on reading my tires. The video confused me too, but only when trying to make it fit into CSS philosophy. He's not the only advocate of this timing method (I did a 2-up ride with such person who runs a long-standing school at an East Coast track). The best I can say about it, is that the goal is to untrain street habits with throttle shyness. However, it can become a potential issue if applied as a "this is how you ride' mantra as it will require the geometry to be setup with a bias to account for this style. Thanks for starting the discussion on it. I wanted to but didn't know a good way to discuss it; I'm glad you did.

When I attended the school last year and rode the BMW, I was surprised how quickly I hit the limits of the wet mode. Prior to that I was timid with the throttle and the fact that it was a new to me bike and not mine was on my mind. I think you're suggesting that perhaps riders can approach the limits from the standpoint of starting with too much, allow the electronics to save them and learn how to come back inside the limits of the electronic nanny; interesting concept that I wonder has appeal to most riders in practical terms. I would HOPE that SRs help us in the beneficial sense of the desire to survive, because an electronic bike can certainly be crashed and it will still hurt.

TOTWII has a chapter called “Steer for the Rear”

I’m sure I read something about “greedy with the throttle”. Does that point you in the right direction?

For my sportbikes I typically add crash protection early in the lifecycle. I often take advantage of a crash to upgrade other parts and have learned the value of hardened engine cases. I’d say that in my experience the Best Bang for Buck performance upgrade has been steel braided brake lines and brake fluid (to include more regular fluid flushes). Having good and reliable brakes pays dividends in confidence and certainty on street or track. Along with this, I’ve found that levers can be an ergonomic as well as performance upgrade, but stay away from the cheap stuff. I Frankensteined a set of el-cheapos with name brand parts for my CBR1000RR to get the necessary functionality and the aesthetics I was going after when I did my makeover. I’m an advocate of suspension upgrades and I find that none of my street-only friends can relate; they don’t see the value but will invest in slip-on exhausts, which I also like - the sound helps make the experience “real”. A windscreen can be a good upgrade to provide better wind penetration as well as being more aesthetically pleasing. I prefer a tinted shield for street looks but a clear or clear enough shield for the track. I often fit rearsets on my bikes because it enables me to go GP-Shift, a must for me and I use it street and track; one style to eliminate confusion when the pressure is on. It’s not fun backshifting midcorner while defending your position, (BTDT on the MiniMoto). Rearsets also help me lock my knee and thigh into the tank a little better and in some cases prevent scraping the stock pegs. I changed gearing on my CBR600F4i for street use (-1, +2); never ran it on track like that and felt it provided some of the oomph I wanted but there was a cost so YMMV (no pun intended). Smaller chain size was customary there and often saved a few dollars on the switch without longevity or safety compromise. I always use StompGrips but there have been a few times when I didn’t have them and I don’t like the loss in lock-on. A tank pad also protects the paint from belt/zipper scratches. I think that’s about it. Anything else gets replaced as needed. I have a love/hate relationship with mirrors. I wait until I break them.

Wow! What bike has a rear brake in contact with the exhaust?

An amazing response!

Well I’ll be...and after all these years! I had a coach years before before I attended my 1st CSS advocate taking the slack out of the chain as the first throttle action. Who’d a thunk it was the same idea with different language!

Yeah!