Bullet

I actually ride an R1 a lot Jason, as we use Yamaha's in the UK. The new R1 has a lovely engine, makes a great noise, and has the best throttle to engine feel I've ever experienced, it's sublime, it really is. Couple of areas where the "Standard" R1 isn't so good, is the looks, (not really a beauty), the size of those rear cans, my god, they're enormous (though I'd be junking them), and the suspension, esepcially the rear shock, which is appauling under hard use (well, under my severe ass weight), though again, I'd be junking that as well. Final piece as you can see from the figures, it's not very ripsnortingly fast. It's not slow either, but I rode my R1 very hard against that endurance racer I was speaking of earlier, and got smoked for dead down the straights, so badly, it wasn't funny and had to really stick my neck out a bit to work with my student. I'm hopeful they'll address some of these issues, though with Yamaha having a bad time commercially at the moment, I doubt we'll see a new R1 in 2011. Now if they could just make it as amazing as the R6 is, (i.e. clinical, sharp weapon out of the box), I'd be very happy man indeed. Bullet

I understand having read some of the forums, that you can turn of the TC and the ABS, however, the computer still controls how the throttlfe re-acts. for example, the throttle butterflies don't fully open until 4 seconds after you twist the grip, regardless of mode. in the lower modes, they never fully open. It reminds me a little like driving a VW car, something like a Golf GTI, you turn off the electronics, but you never do really, as they still interffere and override you. Not sure I like the idea of that? I've no doubt with considerable effort, you can turn them all off, and I completely agree, I think BMW have done a stunning job of creating a bike so fast, so competent, and so easy to ride, its very impressive. but, to coin a phrase, "the best things in life are worth working for", so I'm more interested in challenging, rather than easy. Bullet

Interestingly, I've found I've leaned off less as I've improved, as I make sure that my visuals aren't disrupted by a desire to have my chin on the floor. either that, or i'm getting to old, fat and unfit. (OK, maybe a bit of that. LOL) Jason's advice on how to achieve this though is excellent, and you'd be very well advised to sit and consume that over a cup of tea of two! Bullet

I rode an endurance racer GSXR1000 earlier this year, motor was stock apart from Akra System, filters and PCIII, Ohlins , gearing and brakes had been added and it was very fast, was eating my Standard R1 for breakfast. The rider let me have a pootle about, and it was very impressive, specifically the linear pull of the motor, though I didn't really feel at one with it. You also sort of sat in it a little, which felt a little odd. Was quick mind. The BMW is without doubt it's very fast. I thought (as I'd been researching), I'd share the standard power outputs, as they leave the factory, no exhaust, PC3 etc, etc (rear wheel) of the bikes, all from the same source, (akrapvoic) for continuity and so their is room for arguing, and akra race full system figures latterly (I'm sure it varies a little mind, but it'll give a good idea to anyone interested. So the players: - Standard - Akra Race Aprilia RSV4 = 165Bhp - 168Bhp BMW S1000RR = 185bhp - 191Bhp Ducati 1098R = 167Bhp - 175Bhp Honda CBR1000RR = 170Bhp - 174Bhp Kawasaki ZX10R = 169Bhp - 179Bhp KTM RC8R = 160Bhp - N/A Suzuki GSXR1000 = 168BHP - 178Bhp Yamaha R1 = 161Bhp - 165Bhp Interesting figures eh? Easy to see why the BMW S1000RR is kicking butt in Superstock racing isn't it, and why no one uses an R1. More research data as I find it. Bullet

RC8R has come up a few times, they're rare, anyone ridden one? I know the original RC8 had some throttle and gearbox foibles, but perhaps that is worthy of some research. I will have a look, see what I think, anyone with experience of riding one, please share your thoughts. Bullet.

Not that I've ever owned a duke (well, never a Ducati racebike), but I think you've already figured it out Character, excitment, the potential it could blow oil all over the back tyre just adds that edge to every corner! kidding... the Ducati seems to tick all your boxes hey? Ha Ha jason, your post made me laugh a lot. Now, I cannot deny, I am very taken with the potential idea of a Duke, the wifes got a 749R, and she lets me have a pootle about on it now and again, and it's fab, though its almost impossible to lock onto. I'm hoping someone going to tell me, my misconceptions of the BM are wrong, and that a blades really the one I want. LOL. I am sort of hoping that Big H will release a V4 and that will probably be the ticket, sounds like a twin, got soul, etc, etc. It's a big quandry for sure though, less cash for as great bike, versus more cash and more charisma and soul. I suppose getting VIP passes for Ducati Xerox @WSB didn't realy help either. I'm doomed aren't I really. LOL. A mate phoned yesterday and we know someone who has a 1098R and its done 1500 miles, and had 5k of extras put on too. all ones I'd do myself, termis, rearsets, quickshifter etc, etc. A lot of our UK crew have done the duke thing 10years back, and they all say it's pain, but maybe I need to find out for myself, after all the wife's duke's been 100percent perfect to date. I've never ridden really trick inline 4, and wonder what they're like? Bullet

what's right with it might be a better starting place? nah, theymre actually brilliant road bikes, a friend had one, and it was brilliant, but theyre not track weapons. be good for one class race series, be brilliant wihinging that around with your mates for sure. now the rsv auggestion is an excellent one for sure. i have an older rsv and its great, though dealer support in the uk is terrible. my biggest issue is that I am a big lad, and it will look like I am riding a small childs bike rammed between the cheeks of my ass. Leon camier races one, and talking to AndyI, he says whilst he gets on with it, he struggles to fit properly and get locked on, and you can see that from TV. I know there is a new ZX10 coming out, anyone know of any other new kit being released? I've looked around, but to little avail. Cheers Bullet

ah, my cynical old friend. Ride always way more important. bling's not my thing, ride experience and excitement is paramount. B. I rate these bikes the following CBR BMW Ducati Technology 07 10 08 Reliability 10 08 08 Trackability 10 09 08 Aftermarket Parts 10 08 08 Cost 10 08 07 Maintenance 10 08 07 Beauty 07 08 10 Crash cost 10 08 06 Track Comfort 10 10 08 So Fossil, thanks for your comments and scoring, nothing like putting some science and metrics to it I guess.. I also recognise you know better than most, as you have a Blade and a Duke, so have that informed real opinion. So, I calculated your final scoring as: - Honda 84 BMW 77 Ducati 70 Seems the money is very clearly on the Blade. I agree in many respects with your scoring. We're perhaps missing the two most important factor though? Excitment and desire to ride? Which should surely score with higher weights, as they're the most critical factors to me? These bikes are all quick, and can be made quicker, I'm going to junk standard suspension for Ohlins kit, etc, exhausts and Power commanders will also be fitted, as wel as Dunlop Slicks, and so on. They'll all pull a skin of a rice pudding to coin a phrase! so it's not raw speed that's the issue here, as I suspect they'll all lap within shades of each other, so it's involvement and enjoyment. Bullet

Great job man! exciting the racing eh? the buzz of chasing someone, knowing it counts and you really want to get past them so much it hurts. Warning, can become very addictive and as our old pal fossil says, You will get better! keep us posted. Bullet

ah, my cynical old friend. Ride always way more important. bling's not my thing, ride experience and excitement is paramount. B.

Interesting thought, and I see your thinking my friend. oddly, I really like/relish the challenge of learning to master something difficult. it's a bit like driving a car with these new flappy paddle gearboxes. much as I admire them, and would love to experience the performance possible, it still doesn't compare to getting it right with a good old stick and clutch pedal. So that's a bit how I feel about gadgets on bikes. sure they're incredible, and without doubt add greatly to the safety and aids the normal rider to exploit more safely from the bike, I love the idea of the challenge, the having to adapt, tentaively learn how to get the best from it. coming back into the pits after scaring myself gives me something to remember and to bore my mates about. bullet

Its not the "amount of steering input", its the rate of steering, i.e. quicker. Jason's given you a really good plan of how to go about building and trying different things. Bullet

Man... I am exactly the same, hence my other thread! if you crack it let me know read the thread colin, its all here. Bullet

Hi Guys, This thread actually has some real genuine interest personally for me, as I'm going through this very debate myself right now, so I thought why not start a thread on here, and see what everyone would do, and why. So, my quandry is this. I've got a few bikes, but I'm going to buy myself a new bike over the winter (not neccesarily brand new), to become my new trackbike/potential endurance race bike. Now, there are a few things it needs to do, it must: - Fast and very capable of 175bhp at rear wheel It must provide a challenge to ride (or be capable of be entertaining or make me get off and go, ######, that was fun) either be fully kitted already or be upgradeable Be able to compete in endurance racing So, I've looked around, and I've few options on my list right now, BMW S1000RR Jap Litre bike (most probably fireblade), superstock racer Ducati 1098R Now my thinking behind each is. BM fastest thing going by a mile, winning everything in superstock and it looks nice. I've not ridden one though, and I do fear I won't like all the electronic interference (I hear that for example even in slick mode, it doesn't give you full power till 3-4 seconds after you open the throttle tube). Fireblade, well, it's a great superstock bike, and it's fast, reliable and parts are pretty available. I like the look of it as well to be honest. Now, I'm a massive Twin fan, I love the things, and this is clearly the daddy of all twins, however, I know there much more expensive than the Japs, but it's a Ducati. :-) So, you can probably guess I've got a reasonable budget for my next bike, so the question is, what would you buy, and why? Bullet p.s. it needn't be any of these by the way, let you imagination run wild.

Luke, I'm sorry if you were unfortunate enough to have me as a coach, though you're not alone in that misfortune. I've never drove a student to emigrate to the otherside of the world before, so that's a first. Yeah, I think you've pretty much nailed that my friend, drive of the turns is everything in racing, and it's got to be your number one goal, you cannot compromise this aspect if you want to go fast. You correctly observed people on the video low lining, (turning in early), then running wide, I'm later, quicker and can drive earlier in the turn, and you can see the resulting pace of the turns. So, you've got some things to consider next time out, you know you need to change somethings, and you can now think about having a plan, just try it one turn first, see how it works out, then apply to the next, and the next. Pick your worst turn, or a turn where improved drive of the turn will give you the greatest benefit. Yeah, was a rare day that there sun being out, and it not pissing down, Angelsey can be sunny. Sometimes, though oddly never when I race there it seems. Please do let us know how you get on mate, what you learn from the changes you make, I'm sure everyone would be keen to know. Bullet

Hi luke, Good call on putting in some thought, we like that. So, my usual observation of people who want to go faster, is that they try and make it all up on the way into the turn, so the rush into the turn, normally with more speed than usual. They turn the bike with the same speed (We'll talk about your point 1 in a moment), try and get the bike back to gas harder and almost inevitably run wide. The point is they don't normally change much in their equation of cornering, just I want more speed and i'm going to have it by doing more of the same. Another situation we often see is people start to low line, i.e they turn in earlier as they don't have the confidence to go faster and turn in deeper. Guess what happens in that situation? You guessed it, you're always going to run wide. So, we're agreed then we need to change something? Some part of the cornering equation needs to change to enable more speed. Now the question I really want to ask you is, which part of the turn is more important for making laptimes, and being quick? Entry? Middle? Exit? Once you understand this, you can then work to finding where you need to compromise one thing to get the other. Now as you said very rightly that may well be that you'll turn quicker, it could be you'll agree to carry more lean angle mid turn, it could be leveraging hook turn. But you need to decide which part of the corner is most important, and then work back from that. Now if you have a look at this video of me testing my race bike, you should notice something that's different to many of the riders. Now bearing in mind my race bike is only a little 1997 600 racer, it's massively out powered and out classed in performance and chassis terms, but you'll still be able to make some observations. See what you can see, see if the situation you're talking about is done by many of the other riders. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PoPwqwcZMqY Have a think, let us know. Bullet

Hi bobby, Really glad to part of something that's helped and aided you so much. Great effort on your part though, and you shouldn't dismiss the importance of that part, we can't do it without your desire to do commit and work on the technology, and you've got that commitment in spades my friend. Keep working at it,we're on a journey together! Bullet

Hi Luke, Glad to hear you're enjoy your racing, though as you've noted, it can be pretty tough for sure. So, a few observations and questions, (you knew there were going to be right..?). You talked about charging the turns, would that be your definition of "your running into the turns hot and then turning in early" this is then delaying when you can get back to gas? How do you define where you're going on a track? Do you have RP's for your actions? TP's braking markers, and what not? Or, are you a big picture rider, you ride in your available space, but beyond that, it's all a bit vague? When you want go faster, how do you know you can? what do you change to push that little bit harder? Bullet

Hi Bullet, Yes, I had help to measure out and adjust the static sag last year, but didn't write down the details and frankly .... I can't remember the numbers :-| Are you thinking too little sag on the rear? Kai Its definitely possible mate, yeah. I found on my Aprilia that with too much pre-load in the rear, it caused a few problems, one of which was this. As it's so easy (relatively), to check, I'd start there, and make sure you've got some good sag numbers, then, if not that, check you've not got compression wound on to much (in the rear). Let us know, though others may well have other ideas. Bullet

HI Kai, Do you have your sag set correctly? Static and with you on the bike, are you getting much compliance? Bullet

That's very inspirational. Awesome job. Bullet

Conquered? we were an early relocation area for misunderstood individuals who had particular interests.....like winning at sport againts Poms!!!!!! And I thought he was referring to US. well, the empire was once so large and all encompassing, it's hard to be very specific:D. things of late however haven't quite been the same. doubt we could break out of a paper bag, our overpaid football team can't score goals or win matches and the less said about the cricket history against them their OZ fellas the better I think. Good job our banking industry is the envy of the world or what would we have? Doh! Bullet

Michelin power race tyres is a brand, not specifically meaning they're racing tyres. They are a track/road tyre and they're very good for reference. 1) unlikley. 2) No, but he does increase his chances of a lowside by doing so. 3) No, there is race lap time performance to be had by doing this, braking later into the turn and carrying more into the turn, but also see point 2. He wouldn't (well shouldn't), be braking all the way through the turn, that's completely uneccesary, you either brake, or use the throttle, not both to my mind. 4)Yes, that's right, the application of throttle does transfer the weight, though you can (and I don't reccomend it any beginner/moderate level), to brake into the turns (see point 2). What in essence happens, is the rider leverages the exceptional grip levels of the modern tyres and gets away with it. and thus thinks its something you can/should do.# The reality if using the brakes with the bike leaned over is possible, though if you look at top level riders, as they increase lean angle, the brake lever pressure decreases. So lots of brake straight upright, and release pressure from turn point into the turn. How far you can go into the turn depends on the type of turn, how the bike is setup, the grip you have and so on. Reccomended. Not until it's really becoming your limiting factor to going really fast, No. Bullet Ok, I am with you on the tire question. It's a trade name, not a race tire. And now for some other clarifications. I can be anal at times, don't take it as me being cheeky. 1) Which is unlikely? Riding to the limits or mimicking the pros? 3) I understand braking later will help lap times. He is dong this throughout the turn. no problem, the devil is in the detail. 1) limits, am sure your friend is trying to mimic the pros. 2) braking later doesn't neccesrily help laptimes, its carrying extra speed into the turn and only getting to your mid corner speed as late as possible. so, the gap between brakes and gas is minimal. if your friend is indeed braking all the way through the turn, that's unneccesary for sure, into the first part of the turn perhaps some time to be had, though so is the risk of a crash. I would clarify with your friend how long in and through he's braking, though I still wouldn't reccomend it at inter level. Bullet

Michelin power race tyres is a brand, not specifically meaning they're racing tyres. They are a track/road tyre and they're very good for reference. 1) unlikley. 2) No, but he does increase his chances of a lowside by doing so. 3) No, there is race lap time performance to be had by doing this, braking later into the turn and carrying more into the turn, but also see point 2. He wouldn't (well shouldn't), be braking all the way through the turn, that's completely uneccesary, you either brake, or use the throttle, not both to my mind. 4)Yes, that's right, the application of throttle does transfer the weight, though you can (and I don't reccomend it any beginner/moderate level), to brake into the turns (see point 2). What in essence happens, is the rider leverages the exceptional grip levels of the modern tyres and gets away with it. and thus thinks its something you can/should do.# The reality if using the brakes with the bike leaned over is possible, though if you look at top level riders, as they increase lean angle, the brake lever pressure decreases. So lots of brake straight upright, and release pressure from turn point into the turn. How far you can go into the turn depends on the type of turn, how the bike is setup, the grip you have and so on. Reccomended. Not until it's really becoming your limiting factor to going really fast, No. Bullet

So, observation no.1 what happens when you come of the brakes? does the tyre stay deformed? Does the suspension still load the tyre? Or does something else happen? Thinking about that then, and your inital thoughts Bobby, what difference does this make to your two scenarios now? No trail braking, you're off the brakes before the TP, and...? Bullet