Fajita Dave

During my hundreds of motocross track days racing with friends I'm always thinking about what is about to happen. While I'm approaching a section I'm thinking about what bumps I need to hit/avoid, what rut/line I need to get into, what gear I need to be in and make sure I get on the throttle as soon as I'm in it. While I'm going through that corner or rythem section I'm already thinking about the next section. So I'm treating the track like its broken up into small sections or turns. When I get into some spirited riding on the street it seems to be pretty much the same. Before I get to the corner I'm trying to judge my braking point, what gear I need to be in, my turn in point, and my on throttle point. When I get the bike leaned into the corner I look for the exit to judge how much throttle I can use without going to wide. If its a chicane or switchback I make sure I'm set up for the next turn while exiting the first turn. I still can't believe how physically demanding the sportbike can be. I figured it would be pretty easy compaired to wresling my dirtbike around but it will wear you out quick! I think physical endurance is a bigger deciding factor for most people at the end of a race. If you can't put your strenth into quick turning the bike you have to turn slower or sooner. If you turn slower you need to slow down more to make the corner and apex. If you turn sooner you apex the turn to soon which ruins the exit. Unfortunatly I wont make it to VIR at the end of the month . So I have to wait for next year to get my first trackday on the sportbike.

I definitely don't have a lot of experience yet but from what I've seen it has a lot to do with tires and how you use them. If they are riding racing slicks or something like the Michelin Power One tires you need to ride them a bit harder to get them up to operating temperature. Once they are at operating temps you need to keep load on them just so the tires don't cool down. So the front tire is designed to handle the kind of load that trail braking puts on it and provides enough grip to do it. If you aren't a fast enough rider to get tires like that up to temp and keep them there then the tires are pretty much useless. Keith wrote an excellent article on tires called "The Bands of Traction." It explains what I was trying to say a lot better too. http://forums.superbikeschool.com/index.php?showtopic=877 I don't have to much on-road riding experience yet myself so I can't help you with that part .

I never though about whether I was intentially trying to slide or not. Riding motocross I never tried to slide the rear end around coming out of corners it was always just the result and I got comfortable learning how to control it. I can deffinitley see how trying to exicute a small slide that you want exiting a corner could make it much more comfortable and consistant. It would probably boost your confidence about the control you have over the bike instead of the bike controling you. I'm sure sliding makes your lap times slower on a sportbike but its nice to know where those traction limits are without eating the pavement. Sliding at all will be the last thing I'll be trying to do when I get to the track. Having the right braking points, quick turn in points, and on throttle points will be my top priority while keeping everything as smooth as possible. Hopefully those first track days will be at the end of this month at VIR but financially I don't think its going to be a smart idea at the moment.

I like Hotfoots idea about the YSR50 more. The terrain in motocross is so inconsistent but forgiving. So I think practicing on the street with a slow bike on a tight track would be a faster way to learn. I haven't had a chance to push traction limits on the sportbike yet but from what I've heard the "bands of traction" that Keith calls them is much more narrow and less forgiving. Which makes sense... a lot of off-road tires gain some grip as they slide (unless its very hard pack) where as street tires lose all grip when they slide past a certain point. When I do get to the track I'm kind of worried that I might try to push the tires to hard for short periods of time instead of being smooth like a sportbike requires. I'm still comfortable sliding my motocross bike as far as I want to and that point is always way past the limits that I'll have on the street. So street practice will make for better street riding.

I haven't read all of the posts on here so something similar might have been said. Also I'm not an advanced rider on a sportbike yet but I guess I can say I am in the motocross world. Even though off-road and on-road are almost two completely different things I noticed the feel of the tires sliding is almost the same. The biggest thing I noticed is every single time I've fallen off-road because of a slide I NEVER learned what the traction limit was because I went straight past it. Every time I kept the front or rear tire sliding and maintained control I knew EXACTLY where the traction limit was and didn't fall. Basically if you can get to the point where you can feel the tires sliding and keep it in that band of traction without falling you learned a lot more then if you just went into a corner, lost the front end, and fell. You don't need to wreck to find the limit of the motorcycle. You will need to be extremely smooth to find and ride that edge before the tires let go so I guess you can say you'll be "close" to crashing. I don't think finding the traction limits of the tires/bike has a very big factor in running fast lap times though. I think braking points, apexes, throttle on points, and throttle control have a much bigger impact on turning out fast lap times.

I'm with Harnois on this one. I have a few hundred (maybe thousand?) miles riding with him on the street and we have hit sand, gravel, and even cow manure at one point while riding somewhat aggressive for the street. With slight throttle or accelerating a little bit I never got more then a twitch even after riding over some river rocks from someones driveway, however, those were small patchs. If you see somewhere that the sand might be covering more then 5-10ft in distance through a corner I would try to slow down and get the bike stood up as much as possible before hitting it. The front tire might not hit fresh road to recover in time and always make sure your slightly on the throttle while going through it. I have 13 years of motocross experience so the sliding around was nothing new to me but it can be a nerve-wracking moment sometimes!

With how crazy fast the moto GP riders can flick the bike I wouldn't be surprised if they were just getting lifted off the seat because of the flick. When I flick my bike from one side to the other on some fun sections of street riding I feel like I get pretty light on the seat and they flick it twice as fast as I do from much lower lean angles. If you think about it its the same motion that happens in a high-side wreck. The bike stands up quickly and you get thrown off the top. I was kind of nervous about quick turning my bike from a somewhat low lean angle as well, however, like Keith said "I don't think you could ever turn the bike quick enough to lose the front unles it was setup wrong or there was something on the track." Sense I don't have any track experience either (on-road anyway) I haven't reached the full lean potential of the bike and tire, but it has to be true otherwise there would be a lot more wrecks in sportbike racing. I don't think it would be a good idea to try a quick turn while on the brakes but I could be wrong. Besides that the bike wont turn very quick on the brakes anyway.

I'm pretty sure they are talking about using your right knee for a right turn to help get into position. I never actually thought about what muscles/body parts I used to get slid off the seat and into the hang off position. I think I usually lift off the seat with my legs and slide off to the side of the bike. It would probably make it a lot easier to just slide yourself over by using your inside knee so you don't get tired as quickly.

I should have though about my first responce better because I made it sound like if you downshift mid corner you'd fall over instantly . I meant to just state that its pretty risky when your riding aggressive. You mentioned downshifting mid corner which I was trying to say simply is that you shouldn't have to downshift mid corner. If your already at a high lean angle you should have the throttle on slightly to keep about a 40% load on the front tire and 60% on the rear tire which keeps the bike stable. If you downshift mid corner you could either overload the front tire causing a low side or you could lock up the rear tire for a moment and cause a high side wreck. So its just easier to make sure your in the right gear before you get there. I downshift mid corner all the time on the street but only because I'm not leaned over far enough for it to cause a problem. If anyone has something to correct please do so. I Have a lot to learn myself and I'm not trying to be Mr. Right.

Well I don't think I can afford a new trailer anytime to soon so I'll be using a friends when he goes to the track. So it will be strapped down but not for much longer then 3 or 4 hours anyway. I will definitely keep in mind to just lightly tighten the bike down and use four straps. I like the idea of that Pit Bull restraint system so when I get my own trailer I'll have to look into that. Well here is how I posted the picture. First you need to upload the image to a site like PhotoBucket.com . After the picture is uploaded you can just hover the mouse over the picture and some web addresses will come up. Copy the one that says "Direct Link" then come back to this site and click on the "Insert Image" icon thats right under the font menu. Then paste the Direct Link address into the Insert Image box. Its a lot easier to do then it was to explain this! Sorry I missed the "pin type stand that sits under the forks" part somehow. I'm also sorry for kind of hi-jacking your thread.

If you do that on the track at a 40 or 45 degree lean angle I can almost guarantee that you'll find yourself on the ground very fast. On public streets there is even less grip because your tires wont be (or shouldn't be ) up to temperature and the road surface isn't as well taken care of. I've had the rear end step out downshifting into 3rd gear on the street while the bike was just slightly leaned over and ended up "backing it in" to the corner and I was only at about 70% of the bikes braking potential. Besides being caught off guard and scaring the ###### out of me it wasn't a big deal unless you let it get to far away from you. ALWAYS make sure your shifting is done before you even make the initial turn in. However if your just riding around close to the speed limit on the street it doesn't matter much. I never had a problem with the standard 1 down, 5 up shifting on my bike in street shoes but after I got the boots that changed a bit. It didn't make a big difference in the sitting up position but when your crouched under the windshield trying to up shift its harder to get your foot under the shifter so its easier just to push down with an inverted shifter. Depending on the bike its a very easy modification and I just leave it inverted.

It looks like you have the same front stand that I do. The only problem I had with mine was one pin was to small and the next size up was to large for the hole in my triple tree. It was a pretty soft metal though so a local machine shop took some material off of it for me easily. When you said something about tie down systems I though it was something to keep the front suspension from compressing when you tie it down. I read somewhere on this forum that keeping the bike strapped down with the suspension compressed can hurt the front springs. Do they make anything like that for sportbikes? That other tie down system you were talking about sounds pretty good to .

I haven't used tire warmers yet but I like my Vortex rear stand. http://www.kneedraggers.com/details/Vortex...-53-VORT-1.html I don't think you can make a stand to much lighter unless its made out of titanium or something. My front stand is a Lockhart Phillips pin stand that holds the bike up by the tripple tree. http://www.kneedraggers.com/details/Lockha...nd--636297.html The front stand has A LOT of leverage the way it works it doesn't take much effort at all and I don't have much of an issue with the rear stand either (I weight 145lbs so I'm not to heavy). You can also take the handle off the rear stand which takes a good 8inchs or so off the length which sounds like something your looking for. It just uses a small push in pin at the base of the handle. The bad thing about the front stand is sense its only balanced on that one pin I would never use it without first putting the bike on the rear stand. So if you only need to lift the front end off the ground you should deffinatly use the rear stand to. P.S. On the front stand where it hinges it falls over pretty easy after you take it off and put it to the side. I put it down next to my bike once and the pin end fell right on my white front wheel which put a nice scratch in it.

They do get surgery in the forearm to reduce "arm pump." Motocross riders have been doing it for a while because once you get arm pump you lose most of your grip and accurate feel in your hands. I wouldn't be surprised if hanging their leg out helped the bike turn in a little bit more because of aerodynamic drag. I'm sure all of you know how much force the wind has on your upper body at 140+mph when you sit up for a braking section. That arm surgery was popular for a while, but is it really, really needed (as often as it has been done)? What causes the arm pump in the first place, and what's the solution to that? Haha I like that question. Well from my motocross experience its from having to grip the handlebars pretty tight to muscle the bike around in certain rough sections of track but its only caused by to tight of a grip. On a sportbike I don't think you should ever get arm pump because you shouldn't have to grip the bars that tight at anytime even under braking. I have more track time on a ditbike then I could ever keep track of but I have zero track time on a sportbike so I could be wrong. As soon as my bank account allows I'll be at VIR with CSS .

They do get surgery in the forearm to reduce "arm pump." Motocross riders have been doing it for a while because once you get arm pump you lose most of your grip and accurate feel in your hands. I wouldn't be surprised if hanging their leg out helped the bike turn in a little bit more because of aerodynamic drag. I'm sure all of you know how much force the wind has on your upper body at 140+mph when you sit up for a braking section.

I've been racing motocross sense I was 9 years old but I've only been riding sportbikes for a year now. I haven't been on the track yet so I might give some interesting feedback. I have had some help from a friend that has been corner working for CSS at VIR for a few years but I wont mention who it is in case I give some bad answers . 1. Untill reading this thread I didn't even think about the visual skills about riding. Looking where you want to be instead of getting fixed on a target spot in the corner is extremly important. If you aren't sure where you are going to be before you get there then you could get in some serious trouble. 2. I would have to say is staying relaxed on the handlebars. When I first started riding my sportbike a little faster on public roads then I should have been I would tense up a little bit and the bike would refuse to turn as sharp as I would have liked it to. I was used to slamming on the rear brake and just sliding the rear end around on my dirtbike in a tight corner so not being able to do that was just uncomfortable for me. 3. Entry speed and the correct apex is extremly important. If you don't have the right entry speed and apex the exit of the corner is basically reuined hands down. I put entry speed and apex together because combined they are the most important aspects of racing lines to lay down fast lap times. 4. Would be throttle control and throttle on point. A smooth progression onto the throttle at the right point without having to back off exiting the corner is critical to getting a good drive and staying under control exiting corners. Quick turning isn't something I've had to do yet so I don't know where to put it in order of importance. Of course sense I don't have any track time I can't be 100% sure of this answer myself.