Jasonzilla

NICE! Looking at a track map now, nice little S through 10-11 and a healthy of enough straight to be tempted to get into trouble coming into 12-13. Looks like a lot of fun. Is pit in and out pretty much that same little stretch? Doubt I'll get to ride there anytime soon. Moving back to the bay area in the spring but that's still 400+ miles... Pit in is going straight on 12 instead of taking the right. It loops around by the oval and goes back in. Out is getting onto turn 1-2 area. I guess it'll be 6 hours for you. It's 5 for me and I'm doing it again next year. Totally worth it.

It's Auto Club Speedway in Fontana, Ca. It's an incredible track. That's turn 13. I came closer to having a massive high-side there than anywhere else. That's why I'm riding so hesitantly in that pic. I'm riding Pirellia Supercorsa SP's. They're street tires, and I found their limits pretty quickly. No warning, no slippage. They just gave. I didn't know the difference in the track tires and SP's until AFTER I bought them and had them mounted.

Thanks. I got the helmet before I went to levels 1 and 2 in Oct '09. I have another one that I wear sometimes.

Sorry. I tried to spin them but it didn't work.

I didn't realize how sloppy I was getting until I saw how crossed up I am on the first pic.

Welcome. 15 hours is a LONG haul for a trackday. Hopefully you've found a place to practice the drills and make them a permanent part of your riding.

Good for you. I was doing pretty well when I attended my first CSS. I could lean pretty far over and still maintain traction. At some point it will give. Stay away from that habit. Easily one of the worst habits a track rider can have.

Waiting to get back on the gas will also compromise stability. Maintenance throttle is actually a slow acceleration. If you're going through a longer corner, you still need to apply throttle, but just enough to keep speed, your line, and weight transfer. When you start picking the bike up is when you start really throttling up. The topic of adding throttle and lean angle at the same time is accurate. DON'T DO IT. BUT, increasing throttle and reducing lean angle IS the true goal. The more straight up the bike is, the more throttle you can add. If Bullet is accurate in his assessment of your riding, it sounds like you'd be pushing out too soon. Going wide. Is that right? The racer is off, I would still say. What you are doing is accurate. Brake, turn, throttle. Apex belongs nowhere in that statement. It's irrelevant in regards to throttle application. Incredible post, Jason. You've explained it very well.

I think Bullet was referring to your entry. That's what it sounds like when he says "rushing" the corner. You could be having a number of different problems causing you to get passed on the straights. Bike, picking up the bike coming out of the corner, comfort pushing traction limits exiting corners, getting on the throttle so late, burning into a corner then not carrying enough speed through it will effect your exit speed. I just did Auto Club Speedway (the best maintained facility I've ever been to) and until we got half way down the straight, was getting along side 1,000 race-bikes because of my exit. I pushed through a corner and could almost get along-side some of them on the straight. I had an unbelievable line through the turn. Usually though, if it's a standard entry/exit, I get passed a lot because I'm on a stock 600 with street tires. It is what it is. If you work on getting through a corner, have a good exit, and pick the bike up as well as you can, you're doing what you're doing. BUT it all begins with corner entry. Is your suspension set up? I'd guess it is. I'm usually 210-220 pounds and am now 240 because I can't exercise due to two herniated discs I'm dealing with. My stock suspension can't be set up properly because of my weight, even at my lightest. My bike won't "settle" properly, so I have to get back on the gas ASAP. You're probably getting on the throttle a little late still (most of us are) or when you're supposed to. The racer is giving bad advice, and I'll wager he doesn't even realize when he's actually getting back on the throttle himself. Unless he's a back of the pack rider. You obviously don't want to crack on the throttle if it's a long corner, but you won't maintain speed or settle your suspension properly if you don't get back on the throttle at all. Don't worry about where you are in the corner as much as where you are in your turn input. When I unweight the bars is when I know I'm done with my turning input. THAT'S when I get back on the throttle. I couldn't tell you where that is in regards to the apex.

Nate. Great story. Very motivational.

Hitting your apexes too slow? If you're hitting your apex (especially if you're going too slow), you might want to look into your visual techniques. If you're overcooking it, you're going to be going too fast and be too stiff on the bars to hit your apex, let alone be going too slow when you get to them. Both of these problems will make you overshoot and miss the apex. Maybe when you're braking so hard, you're wide-eyed and focused on what's straight ahead of you and not on your turn points and where you're going after that. I'll bet if you work on vision (two step in particular), you'll realize you're not charging as much as you think you are.

If you still have Assen have a look at Crutchlow. The difference is day and night between him and Rossi. There is even a moment where Cal coasts for a real short moment. Where-as most riders vary only slightly, there is a huge disparity between these two. Watching that will explain why you're on Cal's bike watching Rossi from behind.

During the initial turn, what a lot of riders don't realize is that going from straight up to full lean lightens the bike. It's not a gigantic difference, but you're basically putting the bike into a fall. It's an inconsistent in the equation. It's also another reason newer riders don't suffer the wrath of improper riding technique as much as a more experienced rider. I could learn the throttle limits of a bike while turning pretty easily, if lean angle and amount of throttle application were the only things to factor, but there is the de-weighting of the bike, if you will, elevation change of the track (adding to or taking from the weighting or unweighting of the bike), road surface. That adds a lot more making the rule of "don't apply throttle and lean at the same time" even more relevant.

I did level 1 again Saturday, and it's my first trackday that I've been able to try what I figured out on the track. I spent almost half the day working on this and have to say that I got great drive after cornering being able to have a finer control over the throttle. Going left I can't really have the screwdriver grip so much, as someone stated above, but even going left I can have a variation allowing me to have better control over my input. Later in the day, while I was in a class, I noticed Keith mimicking holding a throttle. He was holding his hand in the air like a screwdriver. After the lecture, I approached Keith and asked him about it. He said that it's only done on right handers because of the unnatural extension of the wrist if you don't. Someone said something like this above, but I can't find it to give them props. I love the control I've gained with what I'm doing and will continue to work off of this. Unless I'm just grabbing a handful on the straight, I'm going to continue my focus on using my thumb and index finger as my primary way to grip the throttle. I'll post pics of how I hold the grips when I remember.

That overhead shot it amazing.

Wicked video, Kai. Everywhere we have around here is dirt. That track is gorgeous. Very nice photos, Yigit.

Thanks so much for thinking to explain it like that. I could relate to how Eirik was thinking and couldn't think of any other way to explain it.

It's all I could find quickly, but it's exactly what I'm talking about.

Sorry Bowells, but I'm typing this right before leaving to Vegas for a few days. Last minute thing. If nobody has, I'll take a pic and post what I'm talking about. What I found, though, was that as I was taking a loop from one highway to another on the way home. I play around with hand position occasionally, but after hearing people tell me over and over to hold the throttle like a screwdriver, could never understand why. While on the loop, I was just doing about 90 mph, but I "screwed" the throttle, and even on the EX-650 I could feel how much more precision I could control the throttle with. I mean it was amazing. I got on the highway and tried 3 things. I got into 5th and was doing 80 mph (EX's don't really have a power band) I grabbed a handful of throttle and gave it a steady twist to 100 mph. It accelerated, but nothing special. There is "give" in the glove, in bent hand skin, and you won't have the exact control as with the screwdriver grip. My example is when you've reached throttle limit. It's vague and you're twisting and can feel the give in everything until you know you're at your limits. With a screwdriver grip, I know I can feel it hit the limit of twistability (?). Then I put my hands on the bike as I would with the throttle cruising through traffic: 3 fingers on the brake and a relaxed palm on the throttle. Again, I twisted the throttle smoothly until I reached 100 mph. Even more vague. Granted, ALL OF THESE ARE DONE WITH RELAXED ARMS/SHOULDERS. Next I grabbed it like I would a screwdriver. I gave it a twist as I would a screwdriver, and I could feel, SOO much better, the effect of the throttle, and had a more precise control over it. It was insane. I've been playing with it the last couple of days riding to work. I don't go very fast on the street, but am going to play with it some more. I'm about to the point where I'm consciously pushing the traction limits. This was a huge find in being able to deliver a more precise amount of power to the rear wheel. My next day going to work I'm going to take my ZX6R and I'll bet I get the exact same thing.

I just figured this out on the way home from work. Everyone says to hold the throttle like a screwdriver, and nobody ever says why. So, WHY should you hold the throttle like a screwdriver?

Welcome. I got REAL far behind the power-curve because I didn't have anyone to help or talk to. That's how I found this site and the school. Make friends at the track. You'll find plenty of people willing to help you. Practice in parking lots. The video, TOTW 2, is helpful because you can see what they're talking about. Learn what you can in the book and after a trackday, re-read it. You'll find so many new things. It's crazy. The school is great.

Looking real good. Your photographer over there is awesome.

If you're accelerating while entering a corner, you're doomed at some point. Plain and simple. I was lucky enough to listen while I was at level 1 when I got black flagged for adding lean angle while accelerating because, although I was doing some alright times and was comfortable, I didn't have to learn that lesson the hard way when I got to the limits of my tires. With todays sportbike tires, you can go farther before the traction gods come to collect for your mistakes. What this actually means though, is that you are going to pay a higher price once you are shown the error of your ways. I was at this level when I attended level 1: I knew I did it and used it to adjust my corner speed (accelerate) while entering corners (adding lean angle). I was making up for poor corner entry. When I actually surpassed my traction limits, had I not listened at nor attended the school, think of the potential repercussions once I met that limit. I would have needed a stewardess and no smoking signs. If you're at "static throttle," you're safe because you're going to meet some deceleratory forces against the tires that will allow the front to be weighted during cornering. I think it's part of slip angle. The problem is that at corner entry your forks are extended and the rear wheel is still weighted down more than it would be if you were even just off the gas, let alone being on the throttle. Your best option of the two, if you're going for speed, is braking into the corner. It steepens your fork angle more than just being off the throttle and even unweights the rear tire just enough to improve turning that much more. Both of these allow for quicker steering. There's also the question of body position. If you're on the throttle, even maintenance, you're probably over the tank already. This decreases the force with which you can place your weight forward on the tank while steering into the corner, which would have helped decrease the fork angle while steering. If you're braking, you're sitting up making the above statement null while you're leaning into the corner loading the front. Being off the throttle, I believe, would also give you a smoother roll-on after the steering input with a better understanding of where the throttle position already is once you crack it on. Also, think of the comfort you'd take the turn with if it's a right handed turn. You'd be opening yourself up to "auto throttle." I don't have my book with me, but it's the effect you get when you're on the throttle and holding on too tight. Bumps and things will make your hand move as well making you possibly twist and accelerate. My guess is this can happen as well while holding the throttle and giving a turn input. Not to mention the bumps causing the actual auto throttle while in a corner. THEN there's holding the right throttle and making a left handed turn. That hand and arm are supposed to be relaxed. Lastly: it's a rule that being stuck on the throttle is the sure sign you've got a bad line. The rider of the two who's stuck on the throttle entering a turn (given it's not a max speed corner which is an exception to the throttle control rule) needs to work on that corner to improve his line. I'm sure I've missed something, but there you go. You don't have to be off the throttle if you are at a static, or maintenance, throttle, but don't be accelerating and why not try to fix your line?

We rarely have a photographer around at our Inde trackdays. I usually share all the photo's I take with friends. I FINALLY have some newer ones of me.

I think this is why I prefer to be on the brakes and also why my apex speed is generally the lowest between entrance and exit. When you trail brake deep, you have the option to ease the brakes early if you see that the corner is more open than first anticipated. Conversely, if the corner is tighter, you can brake a bit harder to get the speed down and safely hit the apex. Sitting on the brakes also means that you can brake a bit harder to tighten the line to avoid a patch of sand or a big bump etc. quickly - or even stop - since you do not have to alter the stance of the bike; if you're already gently accelerating when you learn you must slow/stop it takes a lot of distance to get the front loaded again. There are plenty of very good reasons why you want to set your cornering speed early, but IMHO it invariably makes you slower - for the same level of safety - on an unfamiliar road, particularly one infested with blind corners. Still, my main priority at the moment is to increase my smoothness and enhance my survival rate, which is why riding smoother and within my comfort zone is the route I have chosen. So be it that I'm no longer the first to arrive at the other end - at least I'm pretty confident I will arrive. Eventually I've recently started making up turn points in unfamiliar corners (I've been comfortable apexing on the street for quite some time), and am loving it. It's rarely the ideal line, but it gives me a point to reference to make my turn. I have found that I'm inevitably faster and smoother. Not perfect, but it gets me around the corners better and with work will improve. Some knowledge from TOTW 2 that got me to start doing this. Pg 81 WHERE TO TURN: "Do you choose a turn-point each time you approach a curve? You should. Where do you start to turn if you don't have a turn-point? Usually, where your SR's force you to." "Without a selected turn-point, you are leaving it up to the 'winds of fate' to determine t turn-entry point." "Everyone has a turn-point: whether they consciously selected it or not is the key. A predetermined turn entry point is one of the most important decisions you make." Of course, there are still common errors made by choosing the wrong entry point, but so many things are solved by picking something, anything, as a point. The key is to learn to pick more appropriate lines. That takes work, but we can't improve if we don't start working on it. There are 11 things listed that are affected by the decision to choose a turn-point. The first 5 concerns are taken away when the turn-point alone is selected.