Hotfoot
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Posts posted by Hotfoot
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My tip would be to pick ONE corner, get solid RPs for turn point and apex, and then work on the quickturn in JUST THAT CORNER for at least one session and see what happens.
WITHOUT a definite "turn-to" reference point, that you look at PRIOR to turning the bike, you will likely end up doing just what you describe above - turn the bike, but take too long to get to the desired lean angle, due to waiting and "feeling out" where the bike is going to go or looking for/thinking about where you want it to go. If you haven't really picked an apex (or looked into the corner) before turning the bike, the steering is vague and slow and gradual.
The thing I saw on the video that made me ask if you were as close to the apexes as you wanted, is that on a few right-hand corners I saw a lot of space between you and the inside edge of the corner, and then saw that you were still carrying a lot of lean at the exit, which was making you a bit stalled on the throttle as you exited the corner, until you rapidly stood it up at near the outside edge and drove it hard - if you had been closer to the inside edge at the apex it would have given you more space, room to start standing the bike up earlier and get an earlier drive out of the corner and be at WOT much sooner. I have not ridden that track but it looked like it has some nice straights between corners and I suspect that earlier harder drives would make a big difference in laptimes.
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There is a WERA expert racer that has posted some videos, some with data overlay. I make no comment either way about his technique as I haven't really watched the videos, but he is definitely a fast rider, he wins a lot of races. I'm told there is some narration in some of the videos too. Google Marcel Irnie.
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Duc Dynasty?
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You mentioned that you struggle with quick turn. If you don't have a mid turn/apex reference point (and/ or are not looking at it), how certain are you about how MUCH to turn the bike?
If you aren't really sure exactly where you want the bike to go, will you be able to make a confident, decisive, quick steering input?
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Nice video, thanks for posting that up! That looks like a GREAT track.
Saw some nice quick turns on there, especially on the lefts, good consistency of lines, and good throttle control.
You appeared to be getting very close and tight to the apex on left turns, but not as much on the rights. Do you have reference points for your apexes in the right handers, and was the bike making it to the apexes you wanted? Did you ever feel like you were running out of room on the exit or not able to drive out as hard as you would have liked?
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How can you tell when the bike is about to lose the front/rear? Or more in general something is wrong with your riding. I know, there are many variables, but I've read that tires and chassis are designed to give riders feedback. So how does this famous feedback manifest?
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So what are the specific indications you're about to lose the front and/or rear? I'll attempt one: as you push on the handle bar through the corner, you feel resistance coming back at you (again this can be very subtle but I did notice it a few times).
The main thing I notice when approaching traction limits is that the BMW S1000rr starts flashing a yellow light at me.
On slicks, when they are very cold (no warmers), they feel stiff and I notice that the bike wants to "stand up" in the corners - it's a weird feeling, I turn the bike in and into a corner and it wants to stand back up and go wide. I am told that is because the tire carcass is not warmed up and doesn't deform the way it is designed to (normally) in the corners. Usually that stops within a half a lap or so. This may be the same thing you are describing above, when you say you feel resistance when countersteering the bike.
I also notice on cold tires that they don't feel planted in turns - lots of tiny little slides, it feels a little like riding on rain grooves on the freeway; probably the same "subtle wagging" of the handlebars that khp mentions above. The traction is greatly reduced on cold tires so you get to the traction limits at much slower speeds and gentler lean angles.
A great article to read about this overall topic (traction limits, not cold tires) is "The Bands of Traction" by Keith Code, it is in the Articles section of the forum, here is a link: http://forums.superbikeschool.com/index.php?showtopic=877
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First of all, THAT IS AWESOME. Great job on using your freed-up attention to observe exactly what was happening and pinpoint the problem, and then fix it! That is really great, and thank you for sharing your success with us. It's terrific that you were able to acknowledge the shifting issue and then just let it go, and fantastic that it happened to force you to slow down and remove the entry speed and shifting distractions. The best part of this whole thing is that you were able to turn it to your advantage and really make a big change in your riding.
As far as whether a coach could observe that very slight counter-steer - it definitely can be observed, it is not an uncommon problem to have some sort of resistance, weight or tension on the bars. It is most easily observed by following a student closely and using the exact same throttle control; if I am following a student at the exact same speed and throttle and my bike stays on a tighter line (without me making any steering or body adjustments) that is usually an indicator that the student has some sort of tension on the bars causing his/her line to widen unnecessarily. (It can be seen in the mirrors when leading, too, actually.) There are other indicators; certain body positions tend to cause tension, the students arm and knee positions can give away instability in the body, and the movement of a student's body over bumps (or the bike's reaction) often reveals tensions or a weak base of support.
For me, when I am racing, if I am following or trying to pass someone and I notice they are maintaining a tighter line than I am, at the same speed, I automatically check to see if I am tense on the bars - sometimes when I am pushing hard (trying to go fast) or when I start to get tired, some tension creeps in without me being aware of it.
Good that you observed the issue with the boots. Do you have a good, grippy heel guards on your rearsets? Some rearsets come with carbon fiber heel guards but I find those to be too slippery.
Pretty much everyone has a good side and a bad side; it IS often related to body position; pay attention to whether you are hanging off more on side than the other. Sometimes hanging the butt off too far on one side or the other creates instability.
As far as steering rate goes - how is your 2-step? Do you have solid reference points for TP and apex?
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One thing I have been doing to weed out bad RP's is to see if my RP after my turn is in a spot where you can draw a straight line from that point to the turn entry point. If the line crosses curbing or any area I don't want to go it is probably a bad RP. Also I think I am doing some charging so I backed of the pace a little bit and that has helped.
Is that bad way to look at your RP after turn in?
That strategy makes sense; if a straight line from your turn point to your next RP crosses over something you don't want to hit, it is either a bad RP, or you need another point (or maybe even more than one) IN BETWEEN to show you where you want to go.
Example - picture a U shaped turn. If you are at the beginning of the U turn and you look all the way across to the final exit, you are likely to run off the inside of the turn, because you go where you look. You would need additional points to define the actual arc of the path you want to take through the turn, so you need some intermediate points - they could be a first apex and a second apex, could include a "widest point" of your arc (somewhere around the "bottom" of the U), etc.
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Unfortunately I'm not entirely sure.
Obviously, I did something different on that lap because bikes don't just crash on their own but without some DAQ info to review, or video footage to look / listen too I can't say for sure. I didn't feel like I did anything different that lap. Didn't get any feedback from the bike before it happened, and couldn't really say if I lost the front or rear first. I talked it over with a few coaches throughout the day but couldn't nail down any major specific cause. The things I do know for sure is that I lost the bike at the very crest of the turn, I went back to look for some missing hard parts and inspected the crash marks on the pavement. It was the end of a session and I had already completed a few laps at pace, so my tires were warmed up. I had switched from Q3's to GPA-Pro's that morning, so I was using a different, but better, tire than I had the previous 3 days.
Perhaps I was just a little tense on the inside bar and when the front got light I made a unwanted steering input, or perhaps I just turned the bike too much based on the tire change that morning. I'm just not sure, I know I did something, but nothing sticks out as something I majorly screwed up.
Do the new tires have a stiffer carcass than the prior ones? Going from Q3 to GPA-Pro it seems like they could. Did you make any suspension adjustments along with the tire change? I find myself wondering if maybe the new tire was less compliant to the road and maybe either sprung you up a little more over the crest or did not flatten out as much as the Q3 (giving you a smaller contact patch) when the bike was light over the top. I'm not sure how much difference there is between those two tires but sometimes when going to a more aggressive tire the suspension needs to be softened a little to compensate.
Another question - how much were the tires scrubbed in? Any chance you leaned it over onto a "fresh" part of the tire that had not yet been scrubbed in?
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Wow, Tyler, bummer. Glad you are ok! What actually caused the crash?
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Just read your latest blog entry. I really enjoy reading these, they are such a terrific real-life look at club racing. This last one was great, as always, I love the photos of the crazy costumes in the pit bike race.
I can really relate to the situation of wondering if it would be better to pack up and go home -but not wanting to lose the points you need!
Kevin says you have a two man fan club here on the forum- maybe so but there's at least one girl in the club too.
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Good job making a plan for improvement and executing it. This is a great illustration of how planned practice with goals is so much more effective than just riding around and hoping things will improve.
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OK, but then what about the wheelies I see professionals do all the time on straight hills. The front lifts off the ground often in races. Where's the 60/40 balance there? Not even close. My guess is that rear tire traction is higher than 60% anyway, so it's better to maximize acceleration/speed vs. front grip?
How close do you think you are to the limit of traction when NOT leaned over? The only force on the tire when accelerating in a straight line is the driving force from the engine. How much does the front tire contribute to accelerating the motorcycle?
The throttle control rule is for corners, to get the BEST possible traction and handling in a turn. If you have an abundance of traction, maximizing weight distribution may not be the priority, and you may in that case be focused on maximizing acceleration.
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You can extend that idea into three step - when you are sure you are going to make it to your apex, look forward to your next point.
(Question for the group: who can remember the possibilities for what that "next point" might be?)
I'll take a stab at this one but would welcome feedback (vision continues to be a work in progress for me on the track). My "3rd step" or next reference point might be:
- my turn in point for the next turn,
- if it's a long turn, segmented RPs for the next section
- if it's a straight ahead, my RP for when I want the bike stood up and fully on the gas
What else?
Wes
All good answers; you could also be looking for a Vanishing Point.
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Good answer, Fiery Robot, and Tyler - that's very creative.
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I've asked this question various times to expert riders but I always get evasive answers of the kind "stay light on the handle bars" or "the bike is designed to handle it". I know I shouldn't front load the bars, what I want to understand is how the bike is going to react and some physics explaining it. Crest apexes are thorny because the front becomes very light right after the top of the hill. The fear is that, with enough speed, the front could lift off the ground while still at max lean (different than straight hills where a wheelie is a lot more manageable). Can the bike crash in this situation? Should I cut the throttle enough to insure the front sticks to the ground?
Turn 2 at NJMP Thunderbolt is the best example I have, followed by turn 1 at NJMP Lightning. I've seen other tracks with this kind of turns (NYST, Laguna...), just can't remember exactly which turn number. Looks like track designer love to put at least one blind/crest apex at each track.
The riders you ask about this probably give you evasive sounding answers because there is no EXACT answer, too much depends on you and your bike and your setup. You will only be able to find the limit for YOU by approaching the turn with gradual, incremental increases until you find the limit for you or your bike.
There is a lot of good info in the posts above - stay relaxed on the bars, have great reference points, steer for the rear, etc.
Generally speaking, the most likely outcome to too much throttle over the crest is that you will run wide. Or, you could trigger your SRs, which could make you tense up on the bars. Causing the front wheel to lift should not itself cause a crash (although it could contribute to running wide, due to decreased traction with less tire surface on the road), but if you are hanging on the bars you can get a rough landing when the wheel comes down, or head shake as it comes up. Extremes of those could potentially cause a loss of control or a crash.
(One specific warning - pay attention to throttle and lean angle. Some riders, when they feel the bike get light over a crest, unconsciously lean the bike over MORE to try to keep it from running wide. The combination of rolling on, increasing lean, and decreased traction over the crest can exceed traction limits quickly and with little or no warning. Be careful not to add throttle AND lean angle simultaneously.)
If your current amount of speed/throttle is causing you to go offline or is triggering SRs, shifting up a gear to reduce acceleration, using a less aggressive roll-on, or just going a bit flat on the throttle to reduce the amount of lift over the crest are all good potential solutions.
Regarding the comment about throttle control rule #1, keep in mind that a primary purpose of the throttle control rule is to optimize handling by maximizing traction and keeping the suspension in its best operating range. You are looking for an ideal weight balance of 40% front, 60% rear; would rolling on hard enough to launch the front wheel in the air over the crest and top out the suspension accomplish that goal?
Would paying attention to the weight transfer through the crest help a rider determine how much throttle roll-on is ideal for that turn?
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On the freeway today I saw a rider on a cruiser with very high handlebars. As he rode, the back end of his bike was wagging back and forth. The cause of this is covered in Twist II.
Anyone remember what makes a bike do this? If it started to happen to you, what would you do to stop it?
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Let's review general 2 step timing first.
Here is the timing as written in A Twist of the Wrist II:
You spot your turn point as early as possible.
Just before arriving at your turn point you look in to the turn to see exactly where you want the bike should go.
The idea is to separate the action of LOOKING in from the action of TURNING in.
Some riders find it easier to use this method for timing:
Spot your turn point as early as possible.
When you are sure you are going to hit your turn point, look in to the apex (or mid-turn target point).You can extend that idea into three step - when you are sure you are going to make it to your apex, look forward to your next point.
(Question for the group: who can remember the possibilities for what that "next point" might be?)
An indicator that you timing is off is feeling rushed or having errors with accuracy. If you have poor accuracy to your apex (not getting the bike to the apex you wanted), you may be looking in too late for a given corner, not giving yourself enough time to look in before you have to turn the bike. If you have to look BACK at your turn point AGAIN after you looked in to the apex, that is an indication that you may have looked in too early and lost track of your turn point.
Missing your apex (running over the inside curb, for example) can also be an indication you are looking ahead too far and/or too soon.
In some cases you can't see the apex from the turn point, and in those cases you may need an additional reference point (or more than one) to let you know you are on your correct line, this can help correct the problem of looking TOO far ahead towards an apex you can't actually SEE in a decreasing radius corner.
For long sweepers, vanishing point can be very helpful in drawing your eyes forward and finding were to look, do you remember how to use that?
There are some other GREAT guidelines you can use to help you with timing in various types of turns - Twist II has some good info in Ch 23 under Two -Step Solution and Speed and Space.
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This depends on the ABS system. The complaints I have heard about ABS on track are that it is too aggressive, kicks on too early, or does not allow the rear wheel to lift or slide. So, a lot will depend on your preferences, the adjustability of your ABS system, and which bike you are riding (meaning, how good is the ABS).
On the new S1000rr, the aggressiveness of the ABS depends on the rider mode you set. In Rain and Sport mode, the ABS will prevent the back tire from sliding or lifting off the ground, which is great for most riders. In the Race mode, it is difficult to activate the ABS, you have to be braking REALLLY hard (so hard that the rear wheel is in the air and the front is either sliding or about to) to get it to come on, and in Slick mode I haven't heard anyone say they had it activate while riding unless they set out specifically to try forcing it to come on. You can also turn the ABS completely off if you choose.
A big plus point for ABS is that it can save your bacon if you make a mistake, like grabbing the brake too abruptly, or braking too hard while leaned over, or encounter bumpy or slick pavement while braking.
I personally have had both types of experiences with ABS - once someone made an error in front of me and came right across my front tire. I grabbed the front brake hard and fast and managed to miss the other rider; I'm pretty sure the ABS kept me from locking up the front wheel which may have saved me from crashing. But, in another case, I was braking really hard at the end of a straight and the ABS kicked in, reducing braking when I really needed it and scared the heck out of me. However, that was on an earlier model year bike and in Sport mode so I was pushing the threshold for that setting. I know for sure the newer model in Slick mode (or probably even in Race mode) would not have intervened, because I have tried it.
In short, if you are really good at braking and plan to brake at the very limits of front tire traction, are OK with the rear wheel lifting, and/or want to be able to use the back brake to slide the rear end into corners, you will probably have to turn off the ABS. But anything short of that, as long you are riding a recent model bike with a good ABS system, you will probably never notice it and will be better off having it, as a safety feature.
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Wow. Total, complete incompetence. Not meaning to derail the technical conversation here, but that video is the best argument for mandatory rider training I have ever seen. Also a pretty good demonstration of why ATGATT is a good idea.
Totally agree.
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I'm a slow learner it seems. After 2-3 years of doing trackdays, I'm still relatively slow riding in the beginner's group and I've yet to drag my knee more than a split second ( without crashing anyways ).After working with a coach at my last trackday, I was able to identify my biggest weakness as a fear or leaning, and it is causing me to reduce my entry / mid corner to a level where its killing my laptime.Especially shameful if you consider that I'm on an SV, a bike meant to teach your corner speed.For the rest of this year, my goal is to build up corner speed. And this is where I need your help!I'm told to practice this drill:1. Adjust my brake marker out further so I'm not charging into the turn.2. Focus on where I release my brake marker, and adjusting that to build up higher corner entry speed.3. Once I enter the corner, practice increasing mid corner speed by slowly and carefully accelerating with more throttle.My question is does those steps sound correct to everyone ? If yes, then where does adding lean angle fit into all that ?If I follow step 1-3 and get into the corner faster with the same lean angle I use with my current slower speed, my line will widen and I'll run off track.I have to lean more ( which is easier said that done ) to offset the higher speed, but when should my lean be 'completed' I assume between step 2 and step 3 since I would want to avoid adding throttle and lean angle at the same time. Just seems to me there's not much time there to work on figuring out how much lean angle to add along with adapting to the higher speed. Seems like there's a middle step missing from this drill.I think I would benefit greatly from using the lean bike in the Level 2 class. Unfortunately, its not available at my local track ( Sonoma Raceway ) for a few more months. I have a couple of normal trackdays prior to that date and I want to use those trackdays to work on this drill if I can figure out the lean angle stuff.Any tips would be appreciated. I'm also open to suggestions for other drills.Thanks!
I agree with the multiple comments above that focusing on the lean angle itself may not be the answer. Good visual skills (including reference points to get you located) and good technique (proper steering, relaxed on the bars, secure body position) will lead to a greater comfort level at speed, which will lead naturally to more lean. In the meantime, if the lean angle itself makes you uncomfortable, consider finding a body position that allows you to hang off more and thus reduce your lean angle, and improve your quick turn skills so that you can use less lean angle later in the turn.
In working with students at the school, fear of leaning the bike very often turns out to be caused by something else, often a weakness in visual skills or steering, so getting to a school to work with a coach to identify the problem would be best, if that is possible.
How far ahead do you look when you ride?
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Here are the ones I saw:
Tight on the bars
Fixed attention
Steering in the direction of the fixed attention (as he heads out across lanes)
No steering (frozen) or ineffective steering (as he realizes he is about to hit the truck)
I couldn't tell if the rider ever rolled off the gas; it sorta looked like he just kept rolling on and hoped it would work out somehow.
Just a general reminder to all - good throttle control helps the bike hold its line. If you are on a BAD LINE, continuing to roll the throttle on is not the correct solution!
What SHOULD this rider have done?
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Wow. Watching that really makes me value the training I have received! Not only does the rider seem to be hoping that just leaning his body over will steer the bike, he also seems to be target fixed on something - I never saw him turn his head to look where he WANTED the bike to go.
So...
How many SRs (Survival Reactions) can you identify in this video, and what are they?
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I agree, the school has plenty of sizes of suits available and the student services staff is very good at getting you fitted up properly.
Visualizing Throttle Control When Cornering - Video Bike Vids?
in Cornering and Techniques
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Will retired from his Chief Mechanic position at the school. He is still involved with bikes and still rides but the school has a new Chief Mechanic; I think Will had had enough of the road warrior lifestyle and wanted some time at home with the family.
As far as I know in the vids he was using front brake, I don't think he used rear brake except to set down wheelies, or scare the hell out of me by locking up the rear tire in the pits and screeching to a stop right behind me - something he did at every possible opportunity.
He may have used the rear brake in some cases to "back it in" to turns for fun, but every time I heard him talk about it he seemed to think backing it in wouldn't get you around the track any faster.
I'll have to ask Dylan if the brake info on those videos is brake data from the bike itself or whether it is just acceleration/deceleration-based. On older videos it is certainly the latter but I'm pretty sure the current data acquisition system uses real data from the bike.
I do know that Will used trail braking on turns when/where it was appropriate (fast entry, decreasing radius turns are a good example) but certainly not on every turn; if you have questions about trail braking the topic has been covered exhaustively on the forum, just do a search.