Hotfoot
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Posts posted by Hotfoot
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I don't recall anything in the books about that screwdriver grip but it is often covered when a studen rides the Lean Bike.
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You can certainly practice this on a parked bike in the pit - practice blipping and sliding your fingers on the lever without varying the pressure on the lever.
One of the other coaches (I think it was Lyle, actually) had a good way to explain this - with your hand on the grip and your fingers putting pressure on the brake, imagine you are holding a cylinder in your hand, and rotate your hand around that imaginary cylinder, allowing your fingers to slide over the lever.
Another option is to think of pushing your thumb forward to blip the throttle instead of your palm. This doesnt work for me personally (small hands) but it does for some.
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161 mph in 4th gear. Wheeee!
I hate to feed your addiction too much, but you know you could gear it down a bit and get even more acceleration out of it....
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So reading over this topic leads me to a question. It's been stated a couple of times that adding lean + throttle roll on is bad juju and I agree with that. I wonder however how weight and a geometry shift might affect such a scenerio? The hook turn drill that the superbike school teaches could be used to add a geometry change and weight shift to tighten the line. Would that help or hurt a going wide situation while on the power?
Hook turn helps to tighten the line by shifting weight forward and inside, which helps compress the forks, changing the geometry and tightening the line without having to add more lean. However, rolling on the throttle strongly creates the opposite effect, shifting weight rearward and increasing speed which will widen your line. A strong roll-on on a bike with decent horsepower could overcome the effect of the hook turn position. Hook turn is most effective when used before you start driving out of a corner, or can be used in combination with going 'flat' on the throttle (pausing your roll-on) briefly, which you might do in the middle of a double apex corner.
To answer your question, it wouldn't hurt, it would help, but the effect of accelerating the bike would be much stronger, so it likely wouldn't help dramatically. It's a much more effective tool when used at the beginnning of a turn.
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Very interested in this topic. I will not offer advice because there are others here much better equipped to do so. I just wanted to mention that I had a very similar type of crash at a very similar stage of development as a track rider. Already in the corner, just decided to crank it over more, rear end went away. I was nowhere near the lean angles I now achieve on the same bike with similar tires. The major changes I made in my riding since then were: 1. getting WAY more comfortable and therefore relaxed on the bars while leaned over, and 2. setting my lean angle with one quick steering input then not adding more lean while in the corner and rolling on. If I get it wrong and don't think I will make the exit I will just hold steady throttle (which actually produces deceleration) a bit longer before rolling on. Rolling on + adding lean = bad juju.
Me, too, almost exactly the same thing happened to me at about that same stage in my riding - my crash and the whole process and list of changes I went through were just like YellowDuck describes above.
I ended up attributing my crash to the mid-corner steering adjustment, combined with continuing to roll on the throttle, and now I don't do that any more - if I need to tighten my line in a little in a corner I do it with hook-turn or by using the throttle (stopping or reducing my roll-on to let the bike slow a little and tighten the arc). I do not make mid-corner steering change. (Keep in mind this is not the same situation as a double apex corner, where you actually do have a second turn point for steering the bike, that is a different situation.) -
So I went out this morning and had great ride. I felt far more stable on that corner when when I got on the gas early. The increase in elevation through the corner was nearly unnoticeable. I also noticed that approaching the corner a bit slower helped me feel more confident in flicking the bike over faster; and I was pretty much on the gas as soon I leaned the bike over and through the entire turn.
I really appreciate everyone's feedback, advice and suggestions. I think the only reason I was able to have confidence in myself, was because I have full confidence in all of you and trust your knowledge.
Thank you all again. Safe riding.
It's great to hear you got it sorted out and thanks for posting this update! It's great to read about successes like this.
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Are you getting any feedback from the bike itself telling you the front is overloaded on the uphill turn? Is it shaking, sliding, bottoming out the suspension, or anything like that?
What do you think would happen if you entered the uphill corner with more speed, or rolled the gas on a bit more once the bike is turned?
I feel a little bit of wiggle from the front tire at times, and it definitely feels like it's overloaded. Almost like it's bottoming out, but not to that extent. Just feels like it's at the bottom of its range.
I see what you're saying.. If I get on the gas earlier it'll take some of the load off the front tire in the weight transfer to the rear.
I gotta be honest with you though, sounds like SR city! I feel like I'm going to be pretty reluctant to get on the gas knowing that incline is there.
If you entered the corner a little slower, at a speed you knew you would feel comfortable, would that allow you to roll on the throttle more and observe how the handling of the bike changes when you shift some weight to the rear wheel? If the bike felt significantly better with improved throttle control, could you then increase the entry speed a little bit each lap? The trick is to work up to it on a gradient that allows you to ride without triggering SRs, since (as we have already discussed) getting tense on the bars does not improve the bike's handling.
You may have answered this earlier, but I can't remember - does the hill crest while you are still leaned over, or are you still going uphill as you straighten the bike up coming out of the corner?
PS - good comment earlier about the "steer for the rear" section in Twist.
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Are you getting any feedback from the bike itself telling you the front is overloaded on the uphill turn? Is it shaking, sliding, bottoming out the suspension, or anything like that?
What do you think would happen if you entered the uphill corner with more speed, or rolled the gas on a bit more once the bike is turned?
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Cool avatar, badger.
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Let's look at the uphill corner question first. If you feel as though there is a lot of load on the front, what can you do to shift some weight/load from the front to the rear wheel, once you've got the bike leaned?
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I've never been on slicks at the track, always a soft compound street tire. Something I've always been really curious about is the level of grip when you contrast, say the Dunlop Q3 vs. the slicks the coaches run at CSS. What kind of pace must you keep up to keep the slicks performing better than the Q3? What criteria would I use to decide that it's time to think about slicks and tire warmers for a track day vs. running the Q3s I have on my S1000RR.
I ran my Q3s at 29 rear, 31 front and the looked like they were getting plenty of heat in them:
There were times that I felt like the traction control was overriding the throttle when leaned over and it makes me wonder what that would feel like on slicks.
Wes
I think this question should be moved to the tire forum to have Steve the Dunlop guy answer.
It is pretty amazing how hard you can run those Q3s. What mode are you using on the S1000?
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Hotfoot, even I could easily tell when the Bridgestone BT001 was cold, and on a cold day it was very slippery. But, probably poorly worded, what I wondered if you think a tyre could cool down enough to be easily felt by you after slowing down your pace from a 92 second to a 93 second lap mid-race? Because that's what the racers claimed, that slowing a second per lap made the tyre cool enough to be next to impossible to read. To me, that indicates that either the tyres are sh!te or the riders are pushing so far beyond what we can comprehend it ain't even funny.
Well, I don't know what their tires are like at that level but it does seem possible to me that a 10C temp drop and slowing down 1 second per lap could make enough difference in the grip to surprise a rider, and that presumably they ride enough on the edge that there is no room for recovery when taken by surprise. It also seems possible that they could not (or did not) perceive the change in grip and that resulting in a crash. If they were not aware of the change in air temp (which seems possible in a race setting) they might not have factored that in - possibly just slowing down a little would have been OK without the temp drop, but both together was too much.
I also think riding on an asymmetrical tire would make judging the level of grip more difficult, especially if different parts of the tire are cooling unevenly as the temperature changes.
Of course it is also possible that there is something about the tire they really don't like but they are trying not to say anything negative.
I will say that I was shocked, when I started riding on race tires, at how quickly they could cool off (especially if they are getting worn) and start to feel slippery compared to a mid-range or street tire; on a cold day you can sometimes never get the tire warmed up at all, or you can have it cool down in the middle of a lap on one side if you have a section of the track with no left turns, for example, so the rights feel OK but the first left turn gets sketchy.
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BTW I rode at Las Vegas Motor Speedway on the S1000r all weekend on the Q3s. The tires are really impressive, I really like how they handle and the grip is amazing.
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Tires cooling off and having less grip is common while coaching. Generally the coaches are using race tires, which are designed to work best when thoroughly warmed up. The tires can cool off rapidly if we stop to watch and wait for a student, especially on a cool or windy day, and for sure we have to be conscious of that when we take off again. I always pay close attention to the traction and ride conservatively for at least 2-3 turns to feel it out before picking up the pace.
It also happens sometimes that we have students that ride at very different speeds, and anytime there is a transition from a moderate pace to a fast pace we are cautious to make sure the tire is properly warmed up before really pushing the pace.
You asked if it can be perceived, and yes it definitely can. How easily it is felt probably depends somewhat on the specific type of tire, but on the race tires here is what I notice: if they are REALLY cold (first ride out) they are harder to turn in and the bike feels like it wants to stand up in the corners instead of holding its line. If the tires are partially warm but not fully up to temp they will feel a little squirmy in the turns or do little tiny slides on the front tire; generally I just start increasing lean angle in the turns bit by bit until they warm up and start feeling planted. The Q2 and Q3 tires, though, seem to have a lot of grip at a much lower operating temp so I rarely notice any difference in feel in those, except in the very first laps in the morning or after the bike sits a long time.
There are a lot of tips and tricks on managing cold tires, some of the CSS techniques are very useful - anybody care to name some of them? -
Hugh;
My sincere condolences on your losing your spot on the Prairie Dog Racing Team's [Go Dogs!] final round of the endurance race season...just don't tell us that Brody took your spot. As for SDRP (Spousal Denial of Racing Privilege), you're not alone brother. My wife prays for rain every time I go to the track. After doing this for a dozen years or so, she's getting quite close to God.
Laughing out loud over this. The other people on the plane are looking at me funny...
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One source of info is to check the recommended laptime breaks for track day providers group format. I think one local group recommended 1:35 or faster for their Expert group. Or you can look at race results and check actual race laptimes.
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The coaches crash?
Ha ha, that was exactly what I was thinking when I read that.
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Not sure if you are talking street or track, but what I do on the track is pick a few points on the track to use to reset or confirm my gear count. In other words I start in first and keep track of shifting up to second, third, etc. On a track with a big straight I can get up to top gear and that confirms (or resets) my mental count of which gear I am in.
On smaller tracks or in other parts of the track I sometimes note the gear and rpm at a certain point and use that to confirm my count - for example I know that at the end of the curbing coming out of turn 3, I upshift to 4th. If the bike is lugging at that point instead of being at a high rpm, I know I am a gear higher than I thought.
I personally try not to use first gear much on the track, if I can help it, and will use third instead of second if I can, because it is very easy on some bikes to get that false neutral - probably not an ideal solution but third gear pulls pretty hard on most bikes and as long as I start my roll on as quick as is appropriate for the corner, it doesn't seem to have much (if any) negative impact on my laptimes. Even on the S1000rr I don't use 2nd gear much... except when I just want the sheer thrill of the acceleration it can give you in a straight line!
I know you can buy a gear indicator that will work by sensing rpm, it is probably not too expensive to add that.
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Good ones guys, good ones!
Anything else?
Acceleration and deceleration, mapped on the track (green and red) and gear.
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So for Micheline Pilot or similar (including Q3), tire warmers or not? I've seen Moto-D for $350 and $180 from Pit-Posse. Why the large difference?
I can't answer whether warmers work well on Q3s, but I can help with the price difference question. I have owned three different brands of tire warmers and the Moto-Ds are superior by a long shot. They are super easy and quick to put on and take off, they cover the tire and rim very well and they are touted to be much more resistant to shorting out or hotspots, and that has been my experience with them.
I use the single temp Moto-Ds, but they also have multi temp ones with a digital display.
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Very cool, but I wonder how useful it really is in a practical application sense. For example, I'm guessing it probably only tells you the surface temperature of the tire and not the temperature of the carcass which is what really matters. You could do a burn out on a cold tire and make the surface hot, but try to rail it through a corner and it would barely grip better than a fully cold tire so I wonder if you could possibly get a false sense of security. Another thing I learned the hard way is that one side of the tire can be a very different temperature than the other which will affect your grip on right vs. left handers. If you get it telling you the middle is hot and it turns out an edge is barely warm, you may be too confident throwing it into a corner. I wonder if you can get a separate reading somehow on right vs. left side. I'd be surprised if you could get that kind of fidelity but it would be a really awesome tool if you could.
Benny
I think for it to be useful you would have to use it comparatively - what I envision would be taking the bike off warmers and looking at the temp display. Say, for example, it reads 180 degrees. Then you run your warm up lap for a race, on a warm day, and get to the starting grid. Check the temp display, it says 175. You start your race, the tires feel good, at the end of the race you check again and the display says 185. Ok, now you have a baseline - it was a warm day, warm track, everything felt good, your tires were staying hot or heating up more in the race.
Next time you race it is a cool day. You check the temp right off the warmers, 180. Then at the grid after your warm up lap on a cold track the display reads 140. You take off and the tires still feel perfect. OK, next time you race on a cool day if the temp reads 140 you know you are probably reasonably OK on the tires, but if it reads 85 you know they are much colder than the last time and you might want to be more cautious in Turn 1.
That is how I would imaging using this thing - sometimes we get stuck waiting to enter the track due to a track cleanup and it seems impossible to guess how much your tires are cooling down as you sit and wait - especially if the wind is blowing. But you can't be TOO conservative on a race start or you lose a ton of positions! So it would seem to be an advantage if you have a way to quantify how much your tires have cooled off especially if competitors do not have that ability.
Certainly it would have to be used with caution because yes, the surface temp can be warm before the carcass - like if you only put warmers on for a short time - and a surface temp reading would be deceptive.
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I have been WAITING for something like this to come out, it's about time!! Anyone see pricing yet?
Good find!!
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Hey, with cruise control, we can come up with more coach hand signals - how about one where we stand up on the tank like the motorcycle cops do in parades?
It couldn't be THAT much harder than the Wide View one, right? -
This is, in my opinion, the smooth flow of information that is desired in the Wide View drill. A huge part of getting used to high speeds is learning to process the visual info; the better your Wide View, the more space you have to ride and the less rushed or panicky you feel.
I absolutely agree with what Tyler says above - some people are overwhelmed even at very low speeds - try going to a public Go-kart track and watch beginning drivers. Some will go so slow it will boggle your mind to watch them, you could jog faster.
In any case, good job, Robert, on achieving that zen-like state, that is an accomplishment and presumably it means that you were using your $10 of attention in all the right places, and had change left over.
How Do You Maintain Your Leathers And Boots?
in School Questions/General Discussion
Posted
+1 on getting a good underlayer. I use UnderArmour for my underlayer (shirts and pants), they help keep you cool (or warm if you use the ColdGear), make it easier to get in and out of leathers, and don't bunch up at the elbows and shoulders. They also prevent chafing from the leather or mesh liner at elbows and knees. The underlayer keeps the inside of the suit clean, and like Robert I just gently clean and condition my suit about once a year.
I do find that I have to wash and condition my gloves more often, and I use a mild leather cleaner or diluted Murphy's oil soap, then condition with Lexol.
Helmet liners can usually be removed and washed, check the manufacturer recommendation on that.