Hotfoot
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Posts posted by Hotfoot
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This was fun to read, what a great story!
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Lots of good ideas on here already, but I'll add a few other thoughts:
Any tension on the bars? I know you said you are already watching for that, but bracing one or both arms can make the back end wag or come around. Take a good look at your body position on that side and make sure you are solidly anchored for turns and also during braking.
Are you running dual compound tires, and could they be getting worn or greasy at the edges?
Was your rear tire fully warmed up, on both sides? For example, did you do something like a series of right turns, then slide on your first left hand turn? Sometimes one side of a tire can cool off if you have no turns in that direction for a while.
As others have said, check to make sure your bike is not spitting any fluids on your tire, that your rear brake is not dragging, and that your tire is in good condition. A really sudden and unexpected rear slide would make me very suspicious of either cold tires, fluid on the tire, or something slick on the road surface.
How much are you leaning the bike? When you are in a turn and leaned over, are your head and body aligned with the bike, hung off to the inside, or crossing over the bike to the other side? In a left turn is your face near the middle of the windscreen, near the left mirror or near the right mirror?
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Yes. You will be asked to run Rain Mode for the first session, then after that you will have the option of using Sport mode (assuming you are riding in control and it is not a safety issue.) You can also request Race mode, if you want, but you will need approval from your coach and from course control.
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I've used a folded up blue paper towel (the thick ones they call "shop" towels) for a long time, folded up into a ~1.5" x 3" rectangle. Most of my friends used some medium density foam.
a sponge sounds like an interesting idea to soak up sweat... just make sure you clean it after every weekend!
Hopefully it won't collapse too thin when it's wet though.I'm pretty sure Stroker meant a sponge-type foam (i.e., open cell foam) not an actual absorbent sponge. I used a folded up paper towel for a while, too - it's what I had on hand as a "field fix" and it worked well enough that I didn't change it for while. I'm not sure any helmet company likes the idea of putting ANYTHING other than your head in your helmet, but it seems like a soft foam would be the best option - probably good to avoid anything non-compressible or anything with corners (like a folded up washcloth) because it might add pressure points in the case of a crash.
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Yes, that is really common. Adding some padding in the top is the easiest and most common solution that I know of. On some helmets you can order a smaller liner piece for just the crown piece, to make the helmet sit higher.
Also check to make sure your leathers or back protector aren't hitting the back of your helmet and rotating it forward when you are in a tuck.
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I-zapp - is there specific problem you are trying to solve in your own riding, or a concern you are trying to address before trying something? If we can boil these theoretical questions down to something that applies specifically to you and your own riding, there may be more specific and useful information available for you. Are you currently having a problem with your front or rear tire sliding abruptly or unexpectedly? Are you concerned that going any faster than you are now would mean sliding the tires more than you want to? Does it seem possible to you that you could slide the front tire enough that it actually MOVES sideways noticeably, without that resulting in a crash? Would you know what to do if the tire slides like that?
bingo - that's it in a nutshell. I think it's the quintessential dilemma for most aspiring riders: how much faster can I go before it results in disaster? If it truly ISN'T a knife-edge limit, then I guess it comes down to the combination of a machine that's set up in a way that lessens the abruptness of the loss of traction (when that slip vs feel non-linearity becomes uncomfortably exponential), and a rider's willingness and ability to ride through it.
the last part is why is finally decided to cough up the big bucks for two days at CSS at Laguna.
I guess I was just interested in first hand testimonial from guys/gals that do ride deep in that slip zone.
I think at your school in Laguna you will be pleasantly surprised to find out a variety of ways you CAN go significantly faster WITHOUT having to slide more. Your personal style and setup may end up including a greater or lesser degree of sliding, depending on your preference, but for sure CSS will give you tools to predict, and manage and/or avoid sliding.
As far as personal experience goes - I am obviously not riding at MotoGP level, but I am racing competitively and I don't slide much at all. I pass a lot of people who are sliding a LOT, and often I can see errors in their technique that are causing the slides. Here are some things I see a lot in races:
- trail braking and too much tension on the bars causing front end slides
- over-braking, getting the corner entry speed too low, then whacking the throttle on too hard mid-turn and sliding the rear
- braking hard with tension on the bars causing the back end to wag around or step out
- crossed up body position resulting in excessive lean angle, combined with imperfect throttle control, causing front or back end slides
These are the ones I see the most and are the most obvious but there are other reasons having to do with line selection, etc.
For me, the more schools I attended, the more confidence I had in what the bike was going to do - so the limit seemed less and less like an unknown sudden-disaster possibility. Getting educated and getting the survival instincts under control does WONDERS for confidence and control.
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When tired, not using reference points is a good one, I feel there is something more common though. If you're not holding on with your core/legs, what does a rider have to hang on with?
Lemme ask you this. On those long sweepers, bowl corners and other hairpins, feeling idle with nothing to do for a few moments? Would adding a few more reference points to help stay on line give you the confidence to keep a steady throttle roll? And speaking of lines... What is the #1 reason for throttle issues mid corner? If you're not hitting your reference points how do you know you're on a good line? There are many lines through a corner, the good ones follow rule #1. Yep, easy to lose sight of things near the end of the race, especially while focusing extra attention on the rider ahead, setting up the next pass... all while tired.
Oh yeah, duhh.. hanging on with my hands instead of keeping a light grip (which also can affect how smoothly I roll onto the throttle)
I'm probably going against the teachings when I say this, but in the long bowls, when I'm doing it "right" (and by that I mean, nailed my points, and I'm carrying as much speed as I think both tires will hold), I *think* that if I was able to roll onto the throttle, then I was going too slow into the corner to begin with? I have added another 2 RP's in T9, (much like you said) to know that I'm on the right line.
Am I that incorrect in thinking that (only in long corners), if I could be rolling on the throttle, then I'm going too slow, because I have no more lean to give, and have to stay on this particular line for another xx feet until I can begin the exit to the corner? I get the idea that in most corners, once you're done turning the bike, you should be starting your roll.. But... are you saying that I may be turning in too early, thereby shedding speed to get on the line I *think* is the correct one and carrying that speed (say, 50) around, when in fact, the fastest way though the corner might be making a bigger arc out of it, coming in faster, and only getting down to that 50mph speed for the split second between finishing the turn and exiting the turn? Dang.. if that's what you were getting at, I think the light bulb just clicked on. I hope it is, because I'm dying to try that out!
#1 reason for throttle issues - being off-line?
To add to the above - if you come in too fast or too slow on the entry, what happens to your throttle control?
Answer short? it goes to ######.
Better answer - when I come in too slow, I usually end up throttling too soon, which can have the tendency to run you wide if I'm able to resist the urge to speed up/slow down/speed up again!
Coming in too fast - Usually, blow the turn in point, or at the least, miss the apex, keeping me off throttle too long, and can sometimes end up off throttle at the apex, which can lead to overloading the front.
Close?
Yes, good job - your posts show a good understanding of the techniques and it sounds like you have come up with a number of ideas to try, the next time you ride!
To answer the question I think you asked in the thread above - if you have a long sweeping turn (not a decreasing radius), and the best way to get the IDEAL traction and suspension response from the bike is to follow Throttle Control Rule #1, then YES, you have to think about your entry speed and you have to NOT be too greedy with the throttle at the beginning. A common error in a LONG turn is to feel rushed to get on the throttle too much too soon, and then have to STOP rolling on (or even roll off) because you are accumulating too much speed for the turn, which can run you wide or overload the front - especially if you tense up on the bars at the same time. Getting the roll-on correct and consistent is a big challenge of long turns, but boy when you get it right they are FUN!!!
Good job thinking this through, sounds like you have some good plans.
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Not using all my reference points.. Bad body position..
By the way, and maybe this is thread-jacking my own thread, but I mentioned a bowl turn because those are the only ones where I feel you really can't follow the textbook "once you open the throttle, smoothly & continuously open it", but have to hold a 'maintenance throttle' because you stay at max lean for a little while. Am I wrong there? (thinking about the lightbulb, t9 at NJMP thunderbolt as an example)
I don't see it as you're highjacking your own thread.
When tired, not using reference points is a good one, I feel there is something more common though. If you're not holding on with your core/legs, what does a rider have to hang on with?
Lemme ask you this. On those long sweepers, bowl corners and other hairpins, feeling idle with nothing to do for a few moments? Would adding a few more reference points to help stay on line give you the confidence to keep a steady throttle roll? And speaking of lines... What is the #1 reason for throttle issues mid corner? If you're not hitting your reference points how do you know you're on a good line? There are many lines through a corner, the good ones follow rule #1. Yep, easy to lose sight of things near the end of the race, especially while focusing extra attention on the rider ahead, setting up the next pass... all while tired.
To add to the above - if you come in too fast or too slow on the entry, what happens to your throttle control?
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thank you for the article. having the "theoretical" knowledge is one thing, but FEELING it is quite another. I would imagine that the relationship between slip-angle and the rider's sensation in detecting it is not exactly linear. In other words, as you increase your speed and slip angle more and more, is there a point at which the tires SUDDENLY feel much less connected the road (whoah!), and this point defines the limit of cornering capacity? Or to be truly fast is it necessary to venture into this territory of slippy feedback and maintain balance and forward momentum? (and then what defines the REAL limit?)
I would agree that the relationship is not linear, and of course it will vary quite a bit from person to person! What may feel like excessive slip to one rider might feel quite comfortable to another rider - especially if they came from a motocross background! I don't think you will find anyone who can tell you the "REAL limit", there are too many variables and the biggest one of all is the rider and what he or she is willing to experience. And, of course, the rider's willingness to let the bike slide can CHANGE - through training, for example. Training on dirt bikes is a good way to increase a rider's comfort level with sliding the tires around.
Getting experience with sliding is one of the benefits of the slide bike and brake rig at the school - those bikes give you the chance to experience (and learn how to handle) sliding or locking up the front wheel (brake bike), and sliding the rear wheel (slide bike), with some stabilizing hardware to help keep the bike upright and make it easier to slide. Of course, these tools come with some direct one-on-one coaching on what to do and what not to do; there are specific riding techniques that help make sliding much more controllable. (Hey lurkers - can you name some skills or techniques that can be used to PREVENT slides, RECOVER from slides, and handle or prevent front tire skidding under braking?)
I-zapp - is there specific problem you are trying to solve in your own riding, or a concern you are trying to address before trying something? If we can boil these theoretical questions down to something that applies specifically to you and your own riding, there may be more specific and useful information available for you. Are you currently having a problem with your front or rear tire sliding abruptly or unexpectedly? Are you concerned that going any faster than you are now would mean sliding the tires more than you want to? Does it seem possible to you that you could slide the front tire enough that it actually MOVES sideways noticeably, without that resulting in a crash? Would you know what to do if the tire slides like that?
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With good technique, on a dry track with a bike with functional suspension and good tires, sliding is not necessarily a sudden and catastrophic event. As long as the riding technique is good (especially throttle control), sliding can be approached very gradually. There is an article in the "Articles by Keith" section called the Bands of Traction that you might find helpful, it talks about the various ways the tire can feel at different levels of riding.
There is another article he wrote recently and hasn't released yet that talks about traction and points out that the tire is ALWAYS slipping, as you corner - it is DESIGNED to do so. So there is actually a gradient there, from the slip that you don't feel at all, to the slightly squirmy tire, and all the way up to the type of slide that gets the back end sideways. I asked him about that article and he said he'd get it posted in the next few days so you can have a chance to read it.
It's really awesome to watch Will, the school mechanic, ride the school's slide bike. He can get in a circle and just run that back tire through its paces - from no visible slide all the way up to smoking and spinning, and everything in between, all without losing control of the bike. Watching him do that is a good reminder that sliding the tire does not have to be like falling off a cliff - it can be done a little, or a lot, and anything in between; the trick is learning good technique so that you can be in control of the bike.
The traction article is posted now, here:
http://forums.superbikeschool.com/index.php?showtopic=4275
It's a good read and a nice reminder that a certain amount of slippage of the tire is always happening.
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With good technique, on a dry track with a bike with functional suspension and good tires, sliding is not necessarily a sudden and catastrophic event. As long as the riding technique is good (especially throttle control), sliding can be approached very gradually. There is an article in the "Articles by Keith" section called the Bands of Traction that you might find helpful, it talks about the various ways the tire can feel at different levels of riding.
There is another article he wrote recently and hasn't released yet that talks about traction and points out that the tire is ALWAYS slipping, as you corner - it is DESIGNED to do so. So there is actually a gradient there, from the slip that you don't feel at all, to the slightly squirmy tire, and all the way up to the type of slide that gets the back end sideways. I asked him about that article and he said he'd get it posted in the next few days so you can have a chance to read it.
It's really awesome to watch Will, the school mechanic, ride the school's slide bike. He can get in a circle and just run that back tire through its paces - from no visible slide all the way up to smoking and spinning, and everything in between, all without losing control of the bike. Watching him do that is a good reminder that sliding the tire does not have to be like falling off a cliff - it can be done a little, or a lot, and anything in between; the trick is learning good technique so that you can be in control of the bike.
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For me I think getting faster means being able to be comfortable with the idea that those moments MIGHT occur, and having the skills and reaction to catch it before it goes wrong. I’m not trying to become at racer, but wondering if that sort of thing is teachable and how it can persist (finding the limit on a special BMW slider bike is one thing, but what about your own bike, on a different track???).
At the Superbike School you will absolutely learn skills that will help you exactly as you described above - knowing what sort of things COULD happen, how to anticipate undesirable outcomes, and the skills to deal with them if they occur. Most importantly you will improve your ability to predict and CONTROL what the bike - ANY bike - will do.
For example, you will learn how to make the bike handle more predictably, how to maximize your traction in all situations - including dealing with low traction conditions and how to compensate for a poorly set up suspension - and also learn what causes slides, how to avoid them, how to deal with them when they occur, how to achieve maximum braking without locking up the tire and how to deal with it if it does lock up, and much more.
The skills will absolutely translate to other bikes and other tracks.
Yes, you may find that you don't want to ride at the absolute limits of traction on a rented bike, but as you will find out in the first few minutes of class, it is quite difficult to LEARN anything when riding at your absolute limit anyway, so part of CSS is riding a bit below your absolute max pace, so you have some attention left over for learning new skills and observing results.
You will not be asked to maintain a certain set pace, or match the pace of other riders - you will just be asked to ride at a pace that is comfortable for you, a pace where you can learn - for some riders that is slow and cautious, for others it is quite fast, but your coach will be looking for you to ride at a pace where you are in control of the bike, able to do the drills, and are making improvements.
As for whether you have to slide or ride at the limit to go fast... well, as you have no doubt observed, you can often see a rider who is sliding all over the place get passed easily by a rider who doesn't seem to slide at all. That can be a skill issue (poor throttle control, rough inputs, and tension can all cause sliding even at a very moderate pace), but also there are many styles of riding. Some riders prefer the bike to feel loose and slide around, and others want it to feel planted and solid. The amount of sliding also depends on tires and setup, and a good part of riding at that top level is getting the bike set up properly for the rider, so the rider can make best use of his/her skill set.
I have no doubt that CSS will help you improve your riding, get better control of the bike, understand more about how the bike works, etc., and that the skills will translate to wherever and whatever you ride at home.
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Isn't level 4 more personalized? So why would you get less track time?
It is a logistics issue. Typically we are able to use the track from about 9am to 5pm, plus a lunch break. In a single day school, we are rotating three student groups onto the track, with sessions roughly 20 minutes long for each group (plus the transition time it takes to get one group off the track and the next one on), and that gives us time for 5 sessions for each group . In a 2 day camp, there are only 2 student groups, so we are just rotating them back and forth from classroom to track, so we can fit in 7 sessions for each group.
(This is all assuming the track is usable the entire day - sometimes weather conditions or safety considerations - like having to relocate a turtle trying to cross the track - can shorten a session.)
From a student perspective, in a single day school students are either in classroom, on track, or on a break, but in a 2 day camp it just goes classroom/track/classroom etc. with very little in the way of breaks, other than lunch. It is a busy day, and most riders at a 2 day camp are pretty tired by the end of the day.
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The material and instruction is the same, the main differences between the single day schools and the 2 day camps are that in a 2 day camp you get more track time - 7 sessions vs 5, and the student/coach ratio is 2:1 vs 3:1, so you get a little more time working with your coach, and there are fewer people on the track. Also for 1 day schools you have the option to use your own bike; at 2 day camps everyone is on school bikes.
2 day camps are great, if you can make it to one, but you will not be missing out on any material or instruction by going to single day schools instead.
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Maybe we need to add a new "Jump Bike" to the lineup of specialty training bikes/devices.
Benny
Hee hee, I am picturing outriggers, and a parachute!
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Well, the tires get pretty light at Barber in one place if you are going fast.
The school doesn't spend any time teaching you how to loft the bike but we CAN teach you what to do to maximize your chances of staying upright if you do!
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Eirik,
If you get a chance, have a look at Twist II, Chapter 25, called "Traction". There is a really interesting section in there that seems to relevant to your description of the riding style that feels comfortable for you, and the pros and cons of that style. Here is a bit of text from that section:
"Riders who rely solely on the perception of maximum traction have a certain style they develop. They appear to be lost if they can't feel that particular band of traction and don't believe they're going fast unless they do feel that traction."
The section goes on to describe the "grunt and bite" feeling of the tires in the turn, and describes in detail the advantages/disadvantages of this style and possible riding errors or barriers that can result. Your description of coming in hard on the front tire (braking late and to the apex), then exiting hard on the rear tire (rolling on the gas hard), reminded me of this particular info in Twist II.
I'm not sure if this what you are running into in your riding or not, but I DO think there is some info in that section that could be useful to you in working through the challenges you describe in your original post. I hope it is helpful!
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If someone did set up a bike with some kind of steering force input data logging system, it would be quite interesting have riders who claim to not use counter steering take it for a spin and record just how much steering input they are actually using.
Wow, that's a really good point. It would also be interesting to see a graph of the characteristics of the pressure over time - for example, what does the riders pressure release look like, it is abrupt or does it taper off, and you could also look for a resisting force from the other hand - does the rider steer with one hand but fight it with the other.
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Eirik - something to take a look at on your bike is your front suspension setup. The way your front end is set up can make a big difference in confidence entering corners, on or off the brakes. For example, a front end that is very soft - especially if the rebound damping is set very low (soft) - can compress under braking, but then pop back up (extend) when you let off the brakes, prior to - or entering - a corner. Then once in the corner the front will compress again from the cornering load. This is a disconcerting feeling as the handling of the bike changes as the geometry changes, and that odd feel and unpredictable handling can really affect the rider's confidence in entering a corner.
Once the suspension is set up properly, then the way the rider manages timing on the brakes can also really improve the situation. The ideal scenario for a regular 90 degree type corner* is to get the bulk of the braking done prior to your chosen turn point, then taper off the brakes such that you are releasing the brake right as you turn the bike, so that the front end stays compressed throughout - first from the braking, then from the cornering load - but without that full brake release in between that allows the front forks to extend. (*There are exceptions to that ideal scenario - some high speed entry decreasing radius corners that might be handled differently, staying on the brakes longer.)
If the rebound damping on the bike is REALLY low, it can force the rider to have to stay on the brakes harder and longer than he/she should have to; increasing the rebound damping can slow down the reaction from the front end and make it much easier for the rider to have more of a brake release at the turn point without getting that uncomfortable compromise in handling that comes from the front forks extending right as you are turning the bike.
If you can get to a school, overcoming barriers like this - that seem insurmountable - is one of the greatest feelings in the world, and the Superbike School is expert at helping you do just that.
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rikker,
Your concerns are common, don't worry. You couldn't put a specific number on the force required because it would be different at different speeds. As you go faster, the gyroscopic forces of the wheels turning increases, increasing the steering resistance. How much force does it take to quick flick the bike? It depends but probably much more than you'd expect. If I had you as a student at a school I'd demonstrate how much force is required at higher speeds (60+ MPH) by pushing on your shoulder with you leaning against it. I have yet to see a student be able to resist being pushed back quickly when I push, even big dudes. Keep in mind it's not how FAST you push (don't punch the bar), it's how HARD you push. The harder you push, the faster the bike leans over.
I recommend you find a controlled environment like a clean/dry parking lot, set a constant speed and push a little harder each time you steer. This will give you some feeling for how much bar pressure it takes, and will build your confidence in the traction the front tire has when quick steering. Let us know how your exploration goes!
Cheers,
Benny
This is an awesome post, but let me just add one point - make sure you have room to set a decent speed, 25 mph or higher, otherwise quick-flicking can be unnerving since the bike feels less stable a very low speeds.
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This may seem like a slightly goofy question, but I am curious - what sort of motorcycle seat do you prefer, and why? Do you like a seat that has some cushion, or one that is thin and lightweight? Do you like the seat to be very grippy to improve your lock-on, or slippery so you can easily move from side to side? Have you added a "stop" in the back to support you during acceleration? Made any other modifications for comfort or security? Do you use a stock seat or a race seat?
Let's hear about your seat setup, for whatever types of riding you do!
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Congrats on your new bike.
You mentioned one clip-on is longer then the other - is it really longer, or is there just more clearance for the bars to turn farther to the right than left? You might want to measure the clip-ons, see if there are the same, and check to see they are mounted evenly. Getting the bars working equally and evenly would seem like the first logical step in working on steering.
After that, I agree that working on your steering technique should come before playing with the geometry. How exactly do you steer the bike? What do you do to steer it?
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Yes that is exactly what it is used for, good point and thanks for bringing that up. Level 4 students, or students at a 2 day camp, can ride the slide bike if qualified by their coach. The student must demonstrate solid body position, good throttle control and a good pickup, to progress to trying to slide the bike.
It's a really cool.
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Dzus fasteners are the bomb. Love them, have them on both bikes - I can drop the belly pan on the MD250H without even getting off the bike! The Supersingle has Dzus fasteners that connect the top and bottom fairings - those are easy but there are weird spacers behind the fairing stays plus the frame sliders have to come off to remove the lower fairing, so there is some work to do still.
Hopefully it won't collapse too thin when it's wet though.
Helmet Specs, Back Pad / Air Vest For 2015
in School Questions/General Discussion
Posted
CSS will just want a relatively recent DOT or Snell approved helmet in good condition with no damage. They will not require a new 2015 helmet. The air vest would be fine and it should be no problem to connect the tether and leave it, as long as it is secured so that it is not bothering or hampering anyone else who is riding the bike. It is best to let the office know in advance that you will be using it and will want to connect the tether, but the most important thing will be to get with the school mechanic in the morning on the day of your school to set it up. Catching him early will make it much easier for him to handle making time for installing the tether. If you are riding two days in a row, let registration know to make sure to keep you on the same bike both days.
It would also be helpful if you are already familiar with where and how to attach the tether on a 1000rr, in case the mechanic has not installed one like that before, it could save him some time.