Hotfoot
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Posts posted by Hotfoot
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Wow, this discussion is taking a lot of twists and turns, and I am concerned that there are some confusions, or misunderstandings about throttle control, or pieces missing.
pbrown and Sean - I would suggest going back and re-reading the Throttle Control section in Twist of the Wrist II. Exactly WHEN and exactly HOW MUCH to roll-on is specifically explained, and also WHY the timing and amount is what it is. Understanding exactly what you are trying to accomplish makes it a lot easier to remember and apply the rule. I don't want to push you off by telling you to re-read it, but it is too much to type here and it is GREAT information best delivered complete; I wouldn't want to try to give bits and pieces of it. Also it is copyrighted material, probably not cool to retype the whole section here!
pbrown - I agree with Jasonzilla that if Bullet told you that you were rushing the corner, he probably meant your entry speed was too high, or you were late in your control actions (braking, setting up, or looking in too late). The racer that worked with you later might have identified a different problem that came about later - sometimes when riders reduce their entry speed to get more accuracy, they FEEL (at first) like they are going too slow, and as a result they get on the gas TOO hard early in the corner to try to "make up" for the "slow" entry speed. (What happens to your line when you do this?)
Recommending that you stay off the throttle completely until the apex is a different philosophy and does not follow the throttle control rule. It might allow you to get INTO the corner faster (in some cases), but it sounds to me like your goal is to get OUT of the corner faster!
Once you get a chance to read through the text again, here are some questions to answer:
WHEN exactly should you start your roll-on?
How MUCH should you roll on?
How does good throttle control affect the suspension and traction?
Is it possible to roll-on too early? If so, when would be too early and how would that affect your line?
What happens if you roll on too LATE?
What happens if you roll on too MUCH?
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i want to learn but my trouble is the english.
I speak english a little bit but i don´t know it´s enough for understand everythink in the trainning
What language do you speak? Is it Spanish?
If you speak Spanish and need help understanding something from this forum or from one of the books, Private Message (PM) me or post up your question. I understand some Spanish but my husband is fluent and we can probably help you. You can write the question in Spanish if you want.
Which training are you interested in, the books or the class? If you are interested in the class, where would you go to take it, United States or somewhere else? I believe the school has translated books, and may also have someone that can help at a class, depending on location.
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Hi all,
I haven't been on the board for a while but returned to see quite a few more viewpoints. I appreciate all the opinions. At this point, I just want to clarify that pulling was something I "discovered" by chance and yes, I consider myself a beginner among you. I'm still trying to develop a plan. Got the TOTW DVD and seeing the techniques is really helpful. I wish Cobie or even Mr. Code himself would weigh in. Anyway, thanks again for all the suggestions. I can tell you all are truly interested in helping. Appreciate you!
Keith is in currently in Europe coaching World Superbike rider Leon Camier and Cobie is in New Jersey with the school (on a rather lengthy spring roadtrip) so it's tough for either of them to get onto the forum at the moment.
I let Cobie know you were looking for his input, he read the thread and sent an email response:
"In short, the bars don't care whether you push or pull, but it's easier/stronger and better to push more."
He also mentioned that in his riding he does pull, especially left hand. (This part was written in an email shorthand that is a little unclear but I took it to mean that he pulls some (or sometimes), particularly with the left hand.)
Hope that helps!
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Yes, the front wheel can pop up from time to time, but not usually much of a danger. Mostly I was wondering if the added weight transfer forward (and therefore a roll off) was a necessary component for a quick turn in. I don't think I was adding throttle when turning in, but I don't think I came off the gas either.
-Sean
If you have a copy of Twist of the Wrist (the first one) there is a section in there that adresses this question, it's in the chapter called "Timing", the section called "Your Timing Target". It's MUCH more helpful to read the whole thing, but here is a bit of it:
"Fast esses and compound turns. When two or more turns are strung together and cannot be taken wide open, timing is important. On a quick right/left or left/right combination, time the steering change so that the throttle is rolled off right before the transition from side to side."
Please do read the rest of the section (too much to type here) becuase it explains WHY. There is quite a bit of info on how the suspension reacts to the cornering loads, throttle changes, etc., how long the roll-off should last, and lots of other details about timing your braking, steering, roll-off and roll-on in a variety of different types of corners. It addresses the ease-of-steering, suspension movement, and overall speed into and out of the corners relative to your braking, steering and throttle input timing.
It's really good stuff, thanks for making me go read it again.
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Thanks for your reply Hotfoot.
I'm pretty sure I didn't pull the front off the ground, the bike is a Ninja 250 with only 30 horsepower, thus the desire to stay on the gas for the series of turns. The track was slightly wet, but seemingly not enough to run rains. The part which made me think I had fumbled some point of technique, instead of just loosing traction mid corner, was the skid happening on turn in, before the bike started to change direction. While it is certainly smoother and less busy to stay on the gas through the series, I may have to try rolling off if that is the way to keep the front end planted.
-Sean
Roger that, it would indeed be a lot less likely to get a wheelie on the Ninja! Suspension might still be something to look at, especially after reading your other post where you mention tire wear - have those faster guys made some suspension improvements, that they are willing to tell you about?
Speaking of wheelies on the Ninja 250 I have to share a story - my first WSMC race was on a rented Ninja 250, my husband and I both rented bikes and raced. We are very competitive and we were gridded right next to each other, each utterly determined to finish in front. The green flag dropped, and from the corner of my eye I saw my husband stand that Ninja 250 straight up. I took off and he never had a chance, although I learned later that he recovered pretty fast and was close behind me - for a while, anyway.
He was worried about getting enough power at the start to overcome the fact that he is heavier than me - he never dreamed he would get a massive wheelie! I think Ninja 250 racing is awesome, I've done it a few times and the people were great and it was really good racing. Have a great time and I hope to see you out there.
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So, at the risk of hijacking this thread, I would like to continue the above discussion:
If you have a series of turns, like turn 5, 6, and 7 of Streets of Willow, and a slow enough bike where you are accelerating throughout the entire portion, is it NECESSARY to roll off the throttle to load the front wheel for a quick turn in between turns?
I ask the above question because I dropped my bike during a proctice session a few weeks back. When looking back over the crash, I found a few things:
First, I do not remember the front ever catching or biting before it tucked, There was a smooth, quick steering movement from vertical to horizontal.
Second, according to the GPS laptimer, my course from turn entry to exit off the track was a straight line starting at 55 mph (slowing considerably as the footpeg ground away).
Third, I was still on the gas, accelerating from turn 5 to 6 as I flicked it in and dropped it .
Minimal damage to bike, none to me.
After thinking of it for a couple of weeks, and seeing I was still accelerating into the corner, I am attempting to move onto the "lessons learned" part and would like a little help.
I am thinking that the solution would be either using a much gentler line and turn initiation if I felt I must stay on the gas, or; better yet, roll on for all I can get away with on the exit of five, roll off just before the turn in, load the front, turn in, and get back on the gas as soon as possible.
Thoughts regarding the above plan?
Thanks in advance,
-Sean
Do think it is possible that your front wheel came up off the ground as you were transitioning from side to side, on the gas?
As you know, the cornering force alone adds some load on the front suspension, so as you flick the bike from one side to the other there is a moment in the middle where the front suspension has a chance to rebound (if the rebound settings are soft enough to allow it to happen that quickly) and the front of the bike can rise. Combine that with a a driving throttle, and you can lift the front wheel. Have you ever experienced a wheelie where you set the front wheel down while it was slightly turned to one side? Quite a wobble, right, as the front wheel corrects itself? So I'm wondering, is it possible that the front wheel came off the ground a bit, then you continued to turn it while it was in the air, so that it came down crooked and slid out before it could re-align itself to your direct of travel?
Here's another question: when you think back to your MOST AGGRESSIVE quick transition turns, is there any chance that you pull UP a little on the handlebar, in your effort to get the bike over quickly? I know I have done it, I made a fast transition, on the gas, on a slightly downhill turn, and I pulled up some on the outside bar, and YEE-HAH the front end came right up, YIKES! Fortunately, I was too surprised to tense up on the bars so when the front wheel landed it just snapped back into line; it wobbled, and my turn was lousy, but it didn't slide.
Have you checked the rebound settings on the front suspension? Try pushing down hard on the front end and see how fast it comes back up. If it springs right back up the settings may be too soft for your level of riding, you may need to increase the rebound damping to keep the front end from popping up dramatically as you come out of a turn.
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Hi guys,
With my recently converted CBR600rr track bike, I'm left with a new challenge. How to get it to the track, safey and securely..
I have a small van (Vauxhall Combo) which it should just about fit in. This bloke seemed to manage it! click here and scroll down until you see pics
There are several points to strap down to, so I was thinking ratchet straps. The question is where and how? I've read on a few forums that you can buy handle bar straps (canyon dancers I think they're called), but then have also read that they can damage your grips!
So - how does every oneelse do it?
I need to figure something out before saturday - as I'm going to level 4 at silverstone
There are a million different ways to do it, but I've been happy with the Canyon Dancer straps, a front wheel chock, and rear straps, so a total of four tie-downs. Canyon Dancer just came out with a new version that has plastic cans that fit over the grips instead of straps, probably to address concerns about damaging the grips (I've heard about the concern but I never had a problem). I tried the new type, I've only used them once but I liked them better, it was easier to take on and off, and the plastic cuffs held the straps farther away from the bike sides so they are less likely to rub the fairings (with the old style I used to use a soft cloth between the fairing and the strap, to prevent rubbing).
I use a plastic wheel chock from Black and Gray that mounts to the floor and is easy to take on and off - so easy that I always take them out when I get to the track so I have a smooth floor in my trailer and don't trip over the chocks. They are very lightweight, not expensive, and work well. You will want something to secure the front wheel so it can't turn.
I have never used ratchet straps because I have heard that it is easy to over-tighten them and bend the bars.
I do put knots in my front tie straps after I tighten them to keep them from slipping - I only had one slip one time but it was enough to scare me into knotting them. I secure my rear tie downs to the bike frame near the rearsets, to keep the bike from tipping side to side or the back-end hopping around - someplace farther back would be better if you can find something to attach to. Some people tie down the rear wheel, but that isn't easy to do in my trailer so I haven't tried it.
On my ZX6R race bike I didn't have a good way to tie the back down so I bought an eyebolt that screwed into the hole where my passenger pegs use to go, and used that, it worked GREAT.
Hope that helps!
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OK boys and girls, question: I've searched the boards quite a bit and haven't seen much about pulling the bars to countersteer, instead of pushing. What say you? Is that a legitimate and sound technique? Now, from reading other posts, maybe I'm steering too long into the curve and not releasing pressure on the bars after I lean it over, but pulling the bars seems to give me more effect with less effort. I really think I start out pushing but then I pull the inside of my elbow down toward the tank and immediately the bike turns in very easily. It also seems to have an added advantage on the left handers because as the inside of your right elbow comes down to the tank, the throttle rolls on automatically. And, you can regulate how much it rolls on by your hand position on the throttle. And, some might even think it's more intuitive to pull the bar in the direction you want to go. Well, that's been my experience so far. Fire away!
Well, clearly the coaches know how to do it either way, since you see them riding around one-handed when giving hand signals to students...
On a long street ride on a sportbike my lower back gets tired, and sometimes I ride with my left arm resting on the tank, so I do all my steering with my right hand. I'm not recommending riding one-handed, but it's handy to be comfortable with EITHER a push or pull for steering, if you ever need to.
Having said that, I try to use only pushing when riding hard on the track, because I can get a more consistent input using a push with pivot steering. If I try to pull, I am more inclined to yank on the bar and get a bit of a wobble at the end of the input.
I agre with another poster that it doesn't take a huge amount of strength to steer the bike - that depends a lot on the bike, of course, but also depends a lot on leverage. If you are pushing DOWN instead of forward on the bar you can push really hard and not get a result!
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One of the things I do at a track day or race day is to work to keep everything light and fun. Becuase, after all, I'm there for the fun of it. So I make sure I am well prepared for the day and on time, so I am not feeling rushed or behind, and I make sure I am around folks who are upbeat and happy, especially in the morning. If I find myself talking to someone who wants to discuss crashes or tell stories about injuries or tragic wrecks, I excuse myself, because that is not the mindset I want when I start my day. One thing I really resent is a rider's meeting that focuses on the negative, discussing rules that have been broken or relating crash stories from prior days; I think the rider's meeting sets the tone for the whole day, and a confident, supportive, organized meeting goes a long way towards creating a fun and safe riding day. Some organizations in my area do a great job with that (Hypercycle and TrackDaz come to mind) but there is one that has a really uncomfortable meeting, with lots of warnings and telling of grisly crash stories. I bet they wonder why they can't match the safety record of the other groups; but I don't think anyone has ever really helped anyone's riding by telling them all the ways other people have crashed.
An overall positive and friendly environment is one of the things that keeps me coming back to the Superbike School, I always have a great time there... they know what really works.
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Kai, please PM me your email address. I will pass it on to my husband so he can send you whatever he can from his DigiRace software.
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No info personally, let me know if you do get a response.
CF
No responses so far, but I think I have located some local (ie: Danish) potential sources of Starlane Athon logfiles
- people that I've actually met and 'raced' (read: met a trackdays) with previously.Googling on Starlane GPS laptimers brought up a user name of one Dylan Code. Do you know if he have one?
Kai
I know he has one, because I've talked with him about it, but I don't know if he uses the software. I have one, I love it, but I don't mess with the software, it seems cumbersome to use. You could try sending Dylan a PM, he is probably traveling, not sure how often he checks the forum.
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I've read all the magazine reporters stories about traction control in the last few years, and while everybody is hinting that it is a "safety net" that has advantages I notice that I've never read a bold statement such as; "Traction control will prevent high sides," or "Traction control will allow you to learn the limits of traction on the track with far less risk of injury." Are magazine testers just shoveling hyperbole about the industry's latest new thing? Or is TC a real blessing? Should a low/intermediate level track rider buy a TC bike in order to prevent smearing himself along the pavement? Is it a viable method to learn how to ride better and to higher limits without the danger of getting hurt by the problems which TC can prevent? (I realize there are things it doesn't prevent) Or do you need to learn every type of slide and push, up to and maybe including lowsides and highsides to become a proficient rider? Is TC good for race level riders but largely unnecessary for the average track day rider? I'd like to hear from both inexperienced and experienced riders who've ridden TC on the track and what their impressions are. Thanks!
I think traction control can be helpful to a low/intermediate level rider, because it would make sense to me that a more inexperienced rider is more likely to make the sort of error (and have less experience with how to handle it) that traction control can help with. For example, intermediate rider trying to "go fast" through a quick, bumpy chicane - comes in a little too fast, gets nervous, then accidentally "gooses" the throttle due to nerves or stiff body position. My Kawi 636 would jolt and possibly slide in that scenario, but the TC on the BMW seems to prevent you the bike from reacting dramatically. Or, another example, how about the new 1000cc bike owner that tries to take off in a right hand turn from a stop sign, gets on the gas a little too hard, spins the back wheel and crashes?
I had a Kawi 636 then a 2008 ZX6R, and have ridden the BMW on multiple track days, and honestly I find the BMW in Sport mode to be MUCH nicer to ride than the Kawi's were - more forgiving and less intimidating, despite the amazing horsepower. Rain mode feels very tame and in that mode I DO notice a slow-feeling throttle response when leaned over - but I would REALLY WANT THAT in the rain!!
You ask a good question about whether riders need to learn to slide, etc., but it seems a lot cheaper and easier to experiment with that on a dirt bike instead!
Overall, I think TC is GREAT for the average track day rider, if he/she willing to spend the money for it. The tough part would be if you rode with it all the time, but then had to go back and ride without it! It seems like it would be easy to get sloppy with the throttle if you got dependent on the throttle control.
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Wow, Steve, this is fantastic. I am SO GLAD you are here. That is the best, most understandable, concise summary of the Dunlop models I have seen or heard from anyone, and believe me, I've been asking!
I have been running Q2s on my 600cc bike, even in WERA races (I used to run Power Ones but I like the Q2 much better), and you are the FIRST person that has made me interested in moving up to a more race-oriented Dunlop tire. The Q2s are pretty amazing but now I look forward to trying some of the other models, and I am SO pleased that I finally have a place to go to get info about them.
While you are discussing available tire models, I just got a Moriwaki MD250. It has Bridgestone slicks on it right now. What models does Dunlop have for this terrific little bike?
Thanks for the props!
The MD250 uses the same tires as the 125gp class. KR149 front and KR133 rear. The same tires used by the RedBull Rookies Cup riders and USGPRU competitors.
You can always call me to get specific information on any racing tire application.
Wonderful, thanks. I called a Dunlop vendor a few months ago and asked which model tire I should use on the Moriwaki and he asked me to measure the rim and call him back. I told him I thought they were the same as the RS125 tire, but he didn't agree. As you might imagine, I didn't buy anything from him. Anyway, I am really, really glad to have someone here who knows what he is doing, thanks for the model numbers, you saved me some effort and now I'll buy some Dunlops.
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One point on wet riding (there are a few, maybe we ought to do a whole thread on that), is find the traction limit with the rear tire. not the front. Seems like a pretty basic idea, but we do see it violated pretty often.
So... you mean, panic and grab the front brake is not the best traction test? Darn, that's going to be hard to remember in the rain.
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Wow, Steve, this is fantastic. I am SO GLAD you are here. That is the best, most understandable, concise summary of the Dunlop models I have seen or heard from anyone, and believe me, I've been asking!
I have been running Q2s on my 600cc bike, even in WERA races (I used to run Power Ones but I like the Q2 much better), and you are the FIRST person that has made me interested in moving up to a more race-oriented Dunlop tire. The Q2s are pretty amazing but now I look forward to trying some of the other models, and I am SO pleased that I finally have a place to go to get info about them.
While you are discussing available tire models, I just got a Moriwaki MD250. It has Bridgestone slicks on it right now. What models does Dunlop have for this terrific little bike?
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Seems like a theme might be starting - parents said no, boy got a bike.
Not just boys, girls too! My mom said NO when I wanted to ride, but when I went to college my boyfriend and I bought a Honda XL250R together, and kept it a secret from BOTH sets of parents. My feet didn't touch the ground on it, I used to pull over to the curb to stop. It was my only transportation and I was in school in Illinois - I still remember trying to kick start that thing in freezing cold weather, and it used to always stall at the first stop sign when it was cold - luckily it was on a hill so I learned to keep it rolling through the stop sign and pop the clutch to restart it.
My dad still can't stand hearing me talk about riding, I hide the race photos when he comes over.
So, Pete, if you were 10 when you started wanting a bike... and your mom said "not while you're under my roof"... I'm wondering, how old were you when you got thrown out of the house?
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Hello All,
All I want to do is set my tire pressure, but on my bike, I have such a hard time even reaching my valve stems. Then, when I get the hose in there, the chuck or tip won't lock up tight. My front tires is still low. My back tire has, maybe 25# and it's supposed to have 41#, but I just can't get a tight enough seal to fill the darned thing all the way up! It's very frustrating.
How do you fill your tires? I'm thinking a hand pump or foot pump made for bicycle tires might work. Something that "locks" or clips in place and has a tire pressure gauge build in. Or, is there a different chuck that a "real" tires store or motorcycle shop might have out in the garage? I hate that uncertain feeling when my tires are off. Any suggestions? Thanks.
Best wishes,
Crash
I bought a cheap electric pump at an auto parts store (Pep Boys, if you have those near you), I think it was about $20. It plugs into the wall, has a nice gauge on it and has the clamp-type valve attachment, like a bicycle pump, so it locks onto the valve stem easily and can be removed rapidly without losing a lot of air. It plugs into the wall, so it's not good at the track where you usually don't have power. It's slow but that actually makes it easier to get the pressure right on a bike tire. It could fill a car tire, too, in a pinch, but it would take a while! I'll see if I can find the brand and model for you.
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Thanks! That sounds like a good time to head down there then! So time to start making arrangements.
It's a desert area and can be surprisingly chilly in the morning, even when temps are expected to get to mid-70s or higher, so bring warm stuff to wear in the morning. Usually by the time you get on track the temperature is really nice. April should be a nice time to go!
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Well,
@ crash106 apples and bananas..., 20 years old two-stroke without TC, ride by wire and with narrow temprange tires compared to modern day four-stroke with every electronic aid in the world plus multicompound widetemp range tires.... that's why, simple as..
On the subject of a toplevel rider would have/will gone/go slower if they followed Keiths teachings, well the top ten guys would, because they follow no rules, if they want the bike to turn on a plate, they chop the throttle completely (mamola) and don't crash like the rest of us. If they had to adhere to the fairly rigid rules that is CSS, then they would hit a upper limit that you and I don't know exist. But for 99,9% of riders, CSS teachings make them faster, safer and give a better understanding of the bikes reactions.
Ronni
Quite a few world champs listed as students in Keith's bio, and of course I can't wait to see how far Leon Camier, Austin DeHaven, and other current students go, I don't buy that the top guys would be slowed down by following Keith's teachings. Also I think its worth noting that Keith's coaching does continue to evolve, and changes as bikes change. For example, the change to the BMWs has resulted in some new teaching techniques that the coaches can use, making use of the BMWs electronics.
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Bummer, Fossil. Sorry to hear you are injured and uncomfortable. Sounds like your attitude is good, which is either admirable or a sign of heavy medication.
I bet you're bored, let me know when you can laugh and I'll send you a bunch of redneck jokes or something. I hope you aren't stuck at home watching Oprah. If you are, get a Kindle (or an iPad!), they are awesome, an endless supply of books, instantly available.
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Wow, OK, lots of cool ideas, thanks! Holy Moly Rainman, what a story, glad you came out of that OK and that is quite a good reason to be scareful with the bar-end straps!
Thanks to those that posted about the Tyre-down, I had never seen that product before and it looks like a great idea, I think I'll give that one a try, at least on the rear. The cords don't do any damage to soft race tires? Do these straps actually prevent the bike tipping side to side?
Don't think the Pit Bull restraint is an option for me yet, AFAIK they don't make one to fit my current ride, an MD250H. Same problem with clamping front stands, I have one but it is too wide for the ultra skinny front tire, the wheel just twists out of it.
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One more question, anyone used the new version of the Canyon Dancer, with the plastic endcups? Do you like them better? Do they seem secure?
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OK, I hear a lot of different things about tying down bikes. So I have some questions:
1) Is it bad for the suspension to tie a bike down tight, compressing the front forks? Is there any problem with leaving a bike tied down like that overnight?
2) If you think it is detrimental to compress the forks, what do you do instead? Do you use one of those fork brace things that goes on top of the front tire? Use a clamping front chock? Tie the back down?
3) Do you tie a knot in your tie-downs to lock them down? Have you ever had them slip and loosen over the course of a trip?
4) I usually use a Canyon Dancer but recently someone told me they "ruin your handgrips and can damage the throttle." Any truth to that? Have you experienced it (I've been using them a long time and haven't had any trouble) and if so, what do you do instead?
5) I never use ratcheting tie downs because I have heard they give so much leverage you can bend your bars, is that true?
FWIW, I currently use a Canyon Dancer, a front chock that cups the front tire but does not clamp it, I use 2 tie-downs in front and 2 in back, and I knot the front ones but not always the back. I did have a tied down slip once and that is why I use the knots. Haven't had any problems with this plan (so far), but maybe I am ruining my suspension and my handgrips.
I look forward to hearing what others do, especially tips for quick, easy, reliable techniques. -
Congrats and I bet you'll have a blast, that a great track bike choice. You mentioned that the track bike has the same tires, but are they new tires or the one that came with the bike? Might check that, it sounds obvious but if they are old or worn funny or out of balance that would probably give you a weird feel coming into turns.
Also I agree with the suggestion of checking the ride height on the bike - many owners of ZX6Rs raise the back or lower the front, it's common trackside advice, and I personally think it helps the handling a lot. If the front is lower than you are used to, it might steer quicker and feel sketchy, and if it is higher, it might feel like it is hard to turn or running wide on the exits. When I had my forks done on my ZX6R they moved the forks 2mm in the triple clamps (raising the front) and it felt totally different to me, ruined my corner entries until I figured out what the problem was and lowered it back down. It seems like a small adjustment but makes a big difference in feel.
Throttle And Lean Angle, At The Same Time.
in Cornering and Techniques
Posted
You did.... GREAT!!! Excellent answers, great understanding of the technique and the reasons behind it. Really well done.
Your response is so good I am hesitant to add anything at all... but in the interst of getting one point really clear for others, relative to the question of WHEN to start the roll-on: you say "When you have completed your turn-in..." and this is correct but there might be some confusion about when THAT is. So another way to say it would be "when you have completed your steering action", or "when you have reached your desired lean angle". (And, naturally, the idea is that you don't have to steer the bike again or lean over any farther later in the turn, because you have chosen a good turn point.)
So, you wrote this quite nicely - what sort of results have you been getting with the technique?
I know, for me, it made me stop charging the turns and worrying about 'losing the front', and it certainly made my bike hold a line a lot better!