Hotfoot
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Posts posted by Hotfoot
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It's often quite cool at Laguna. I haven't checked in the last few days but the forecast a few days ago said high of 63 degrees. In the morning it is likely to be chilly, it would be a good idea to bring a jacket.
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So, the obvious question...I am in the corner, throttle rolling on, and suddenly I don't believe my line is going to let me make the exit. Then what? The natural SR is to roll off, but as I understand it that is going to stand the bike up and also create a weight transfer that will reduce traction. But adding throttle and lean angle at the same time is deadly. So.....?
If your line will not allow you to make the exit, you've blown the corner. You just have to regroup and get through it - which would typically mean stand the bike up, slow down (possibly braking hard), and then turn the bike again. You can slow the bike down a lot in a short distance. Getting the bike upright will allow it to handle the weight transfer to the front.
As you get farther into Twist II (which I know you just recently acquired) you will find lots of great info about steering and lines that will give you a lot more tools to avoid getting INTO that situation.
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Hotfoot posted that she purchased one of the School bikes - rumor has it she had two podiums on the Big Track at Willow on Sunday on it; also nice work if you can get it!
Rain
Just to set the record straight - I did have great race results Sunday, but I wasn't riding the BMW, I was on my Moriwaki. I sing the praises of the BMW, but for sheer fun factor (and learning how to carry unreal corner speed) its hard to beat the Moriwaki, it's big fun to race.
Speaking of random bikes on the track, there was an MZ660 pitted near me - ever see one of those? Single cylinder 660cc engine.
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Along the line of this thread, I have a question for you guys. Would you feel comfortable buying one of the school's retired 2010's S1000RRs? There are a few left and they range in miles from 20-23K. They have been ridden hard but you know they have been maintained well. It's an option that would make for a very nice second bike.
Thoughts?
I bought one.
They come with all the electronics - quick shifter, abs, etc., and all the street stuff. The stock fairings have been packed in a box and never used so they are like new. They have been regularly maintained and you know you are buying from an honest seller, clean title, etc. Used BMWs are not that easy to come by, so I think the school bikes are a good deal. I jumped in early and grabbed one with low miles (it was the camera bike) and I've been happy with it. There isn't any other sport bike out there I'd rather have - this bike handles great, it's comfortable to ride (by sport bike standards), it has lots of cool technology - the quick shifter is AWESOME - and it is blindingly fast... without being intimidating to ride. It's also reasonably affordable (a steal, when you consider its performance capabilities) and you can get track bits for it (fairings, etc) and if you did crash it you could repair it without having to take out a second mortgage on your house. I agree there are bikes that are more beautiful and/or rare, but I want to ride it not polish it and for overall performance and utility on street and track the BMW is the bomb.
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I am reading TOTW2 right now, and since definitions and proper use of technical language are emphasized, here is one for everyone, relevant to this thread:
plural of apex = apices. As in, "that corner actually has two apices".
....now back to your regularly scheduled, useful discussion....
I know from my book-larnin' that apices is the plural of apex (we often used the term apices in math classes)... but I so rarely hear "apices" at the racetrack, that your post prompted me to look it up in a few dictionaries. Each one listed both "apexes" and "apices" as acceptable plurals for apex. So I think we can get away with using "apexes", if we so choose; it may sound less sophisticated but it also may lower the risk of confusion, as a new rider may not recognize the term "apices".
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My friends and family think it is "nuts" that I race motorcycles, and usually the first reaction I get from anyone who asks about it or sees the pictures is "You really do that? You're crazy!"
Of course to ME it doesn't feel crazy at all... but recently I watched some guys whose weeekend hobby is to pack a hang glider on top of the car, drive up the side of a mountain, and jump off a steep cliff to ride thermal currents to insane heights.
What hobbies seem crazy to you? Let's talk real hobbies, not one-time daredevil experiences, but stuff that people spend time, effort and money on. Here's another one for me: combined driving. These folks get in a little cart behind galloping horses and charge through streams, obstacles, deep mud, and other challenging terrain, at speed. That looks scary to me!
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Surtees --vincent thruxton manx mv agusta lola ferrari cooper maserati obe.
Isn't this sort of a random place to put this? And... what is it, hero worship, in Code?
Or are you just trying to say "think it through"?
And... is Ago your signature, or part of your list of giants?
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My fantasy is to have a top brand of protection, but custom fit...wonder if anyone does that for regular punters?
CF
Z Custom in Huntington Beach will make custom gloves for you. However, I've asked him about modifying production off-the-shelf gloves (most production gloves have fingers that are way too long for my small hands), he says that is very difficult. You have to turn them inside out to get to the stitching, and I think all the molded plastic parts are added after the fact making it very hard to reverse the glove.
What would you change about your current gloves, if you could get them customized?
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Make sure you are not confusing a stabilizing roll-on with an exit drive.
Could you please expand on this, Hotfoot?
(Yes, I agree with you about re-reading Twist II, I think it's essential that I stay current with that book.)
Sure. You made the comment in your earlier post that you might want to delay your roll-on until you start your Pick-up, or slow or stop your roll-on in a turn with bumps. While I agree that you might want to delay your hard-throttle EXIT DRIVE in those situations, would you really want to delay your initial roll-on? Would delaying or halting your stabilizing roll-on help the bike's handling over the bumps?
What does good throttle control do to the weight load on the front and rear tires, do you recall the weight distribution we are looking for? What does good throttle control do to the suspension?
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I certainly agree that learning how to control the bike, and predict what it will do, is the best approach. Falling sucks and it costs money and possibly injury.
YellowDuck, I completely understand that you'd ike a specific answer, drill, or solution to help you, instead of questions, but there is a lot TO your question! There are many things that can affect front tire grip, everything from technique to suspension setup to tire compound and temperature to road surface. Additionally, there are multiple triggers for the Survival Reactions that make us not "trust the tires"; it could be a "false feedback" problem from tension in your arms, a vision problem that results in an skewed sense of speed or lean angle, a technique problem with your chosen lines, even a suspension problem that prevents your tire from being in constant contact with the road. Something is telling you that you shouldn't lean over any farther; it could be real or it could be a perception problem, but just telling you to "quit worrying about it" is not likely to help much.
At a school, the drills combined with a coach watching you and talking with you would rapidly identify the source of the problem and find a drill to solve it. But since that is not an easy option for you, Twist II is the next best bet - I see that you have ordered it already - and right on Page 3 is a description of the Survival Reactions and the things that most commonly trigger them. It may be that reading that one page will help you identify what is worrying you, and possibly even identify something (or things) that you are doing that are aggravating instead of improving the situation. Certainly the more you read, the more solutions you will find, and most of us have found that as our riding progresses and we encounter new barriers, we refer back to Twist again for more solutions.
The forum group is a generous crowd and will try to help you, but it would require a bunch of questions to ferret out the source of your concern and suggest a drill to handle it; not to mention that we will need to try to explain the technique behind the drill itself. Reading Twist II will put you WAY ahead of the curve, and with that data in hand, the forum conversations can be much more productive!
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Does the throttle rule no.1 have any exceptions?
A very profound question, Rain. Let's see now.
1. In a rear-end slide, it may be advisable to stop rolling on the gas (but not to roll it off). The motorcycle will slow down smoothly and gradually, and the slide will be corrected.
2. A double-apex turn should be treated practically as two separate turns, which means slowing down smoothly, even by rolling off the gas and straightening the bike before the second entry.
3. In top-gear, full-throttle turns there's no way to continue rolling on the gas simply because it's already open all the way. In that case, the necessary pull through the turn should be created by coming into the turn roughly 500 rpm lower than normal, and then when the motorcycle is leaned over, the rpm will pick up and the engine will pul the motorcycle through the turn.
4. In the crested turns, getting on the gas should be delayed until after the the bike "lands" after the crest, because it's already too high on the suspension, and getting on the gas too early may lift t even higher, which may result in the front wheel pop-up. It may even be necessary to roll off the gas slightly and smoothly, if the crest is really steep (in that case the motorcycle may still be accelerating even as the throttle is being rolled off).
5. If a motorcycle is leaned over to the extreme, the rider has to wait until the beginning of the Pick-Up to start rolling on the gas (this is not so much an exception, but rather a modification of the Golden Rule).
6. If there are bumps in the middle of the turn, the throttle roll-on may be slowed down or stopped temporarily till the end of the bumps. (No roll-off, though.)
7. A long downhill turn may require a brief delay in rolling on the throttle.
8. Changes in camber in the middle of the turn, or off-camber turn, may require a brief delay in rolling on the throttle.
9. A decreasing-radius turn may need a brief delay in the roll-on.
10. Any combination of all of the above may also require slowing down or temporarily stopping the roll-on.
That seems to be it, even though I should confess that most of what I just wrote is pure theory to me, because I simply don't have enough track experience to encounter all of the described circumstances. I may have gotten some of it wrong, and I may have missed something. As always, an input from a more experienced and skillful rider would be much appreciated. Mugget, I hope you kept your text after you snipped it out, I would very much like to read it.
If you have a copy of Twist II, you might want to go back and review the benefits of good throttle control, and see if you still think all these exceptions apply. Make sure you are not confusing a stabilizing roll-on with an exit drive.
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Yep. Hook turn. It's a Level 3 technique, very handy.
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Hey Stewal, I touched on that point in my last post just a bit above. I have tried moving the braking point closer to the corner (in an effort to increase corner entry speed) and I found it really difficult.
Moving the brake point later can work (especially for racing) but it's a steep gradient, and can fire off a lot of SRs, including target locking on the turn point... and what does THAT do to your sense of speed?
Cobie's recommendation to me some time ago was to move the braking RELEASE point earlier, instead of moving the brake point later. If you get OFF the brakes a little earlier each lap, that brings your entry speed up. Knowing you COULD stay on the brakes longer (if you really had to) helps avoid panic, and being off the brakes before the turn point helps focus your attention on entry speed instead of on braking. It maks a nice intermediate step between no-brakes and moving the brake point later.
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I sure got a lot of practice on pickup drill tonight.
Pick up clothes, pick up toys, pick up groceries...
I don't think this is making me any faster.
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Anyway we've been dragged off a bit onto RPs etc. and I am still wondering about an answer to Lnewqban's original question, about judging entry speed on the track. Judging, say, a braking point is one thing, it's a spot on the tarmac or whatever, but how do you "measure" your speed? If you're going to incrementally speed up on each lap, you therefore need to have a handle on how fast you're going.
Mugget and Brad covered a lot of good points, but one thing I remember Keith suggests in Twist is to try increasing your entry speed a little at a time, by coming in at a bit higher RPM the next lap. That, at least, is something you can feel and hear, so you aren't trying to look at the speedo; and if you DO need to look at your tach, hopefully it is highly visible so you can either see it in peripheral vision or glance at it (and process the info) more quickly than the speedo. That's the best way I know (maybe someone else has something better!) to judge/measure incremental increases in entry speed from lap to lap, on the fly. A data logger would help, but only after the fact, when you review the download!
The OP, as I recall, has been through Level 1 at the school, which does have the no-brakes drill - but in Level 2 a number of other drills are introduced that can help tremendously with sense of speed. To give you an idea of the TYPE of skills they are, think about this:
Which of your senses is the MOST important for judging your speed?
If the flow of information you are getting is intermittent, choppy, or distorted, can that make judging your speed difficult?
For those of you that have taken Level 2 or higher, what skill helped YOU the most with judging entry speed?
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2-step is a vision technique. If you can't see, you can't really use it, can you?
If you can't see the shape of the turn, you can't really choose an apex or turn point, you simply have to wait until you are far enough into the turn to see how it's shaped, and THEN you can choose your points and apply the 2-step. A new rider, unfamiliar with the 2-step, might find their eyes drawn to the inside of the corner, and unintentionally steer the bike there, and end up riding around the inside edge of the corner - not ideal, since it tightens the curve AND makes the visibility even worse. 2-step helps with this as well.
Is this 2-step visual technique used in actual racing or track days?
I ask because, in Florida track days, I have seen a lot of "riding around the inside edge of the corner", especially in turns close to 180 degrees.
Yes the 2-step visual technique is used in actual racing and track days. I think obviously it is not used by everyone. I'll generalize it this way: those who know the 2-step use it; those who don't know the 2-step, well they don't know what they don't know.
Riding the inside edge also can be a method to protect your line so you don't get passed on the inside, although I suspect this is not the scenario most frequently seen at track days.
On a very long 180 degree or more turn, there may be riders that figure the quickest way around the turn is to take the shortest path, which would be riding around the inside edge. On a low HP bike, if you are already entering the turn in top gear at full throttle, that might in fact be the best strategy! Which line is the best/fastest line can be an endless debate - every turn is different, and of course you must play to your own strengths and the characteristics of your particular bike. I think the main point here (talking about the 2-step) is that you make a PLAN, and follow it, instead of allowing your Survival Reactions to tell you when and where to turn.
Yes, 2-Step is used in racing and track days. A more advanced rider might already be well capable of separating the actions of looking and turning, but 2-step is still utilized, most commonly to improve accuracy to the apex (which becomes more and more important as the pace comes up) or to correct a problem with vision getting hung up a little too long on something (brake marker, rough patch in the pavement, etc.), it helps the rider notice the visual lag and improve the timing of the look-in.
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Welcome, glad you had a great time at Barber! As far as the name on the coach bike - Brian was probably just riding Lyle's bike that day. Lyle was doing video review, he was not on track. Part time coaches ride whatever bike is available.
Hope to see you back for more schools!
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Taking that thing on the track is like riding a Clydesdale in a steeplechase.
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Interesting point Hotfoot, I guess it was taught to me like that but not quite in those words. More like, look at the first RP, then keep an eye on it with peripheral vsion as you look for the second. Either way round it still means "look where you're going" as at this point in the school, reference points are being used a lot and people can hang on to them too long.
FYI, Turn points and 2-Step are Level 1 drills. Reference Points are not covered until Level 2. So, 2-Step is not explained using the Reference Point data. However, we do mark turn points on the track and you're correct that riders can get stuck on those; having the turn points marked helps correct the tendency to drift in early, but once they are there sometimes riders can get stuck staring at them - most commonly if they feel they are have come in too fast and are focusing on trying to get slowed down for that turn point. So we use 2-step to help them understand the timing of WHEN to let go of the turn point and look to the apex.
Have you ever been on a road ride, where you came into a turn "too fast" and ended up staring at something you didn't want to hit? Like a guard rail, a point on the center line of the road, or the edge of the road? Would using 2-step to force yourself to look into the turn instead of staring at something straight ahead have helped you get around the turn? This is one way 2-step can be helpful on the street.
You can do it on the road but not always, you might not be able to see very far round the bend, so you then don't have a turn-in point because you don't know where the bend goes. Think of an extreme, following a cliffside or forest road round a tight bend. The first time you figure out where it's going could be when you see it open up. You can't really turn in (across the bend), you can can only really follow around the outside until you can see more. Or you can head for where you think the apex will be and cross your fingers.
2-step is a vision technique. If you can't see, you can't really use it, can you?
If you can't see the shape of the turn, you can't really choose an apex or turn point, you simply have to wait until you are far enough into the turn to see how it's shaped, and THEN you can choose your points and apply the 2-step. A new rider, unfamiliar with the 2-step, might find their eyes drawn to the inside of the corner, and unintentionally steer the bike there, and end up riding around the inside edge of the corner - not ideal, since it tightens the curve AND makes the visibility even worse. 2-step helps with this as well.
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A coach watching a video of a student on an unknown road would watch to see that the rider looked in (at a chosen apex or midcorner point) BEFORE turning the bike. The two step is designed to separate looking in from turning in. If the rider looked into the turn and turned the bike simultaneously, or if the action of looking in caused him to start drifting into the turn, that would indicate that he is not using the two step.
Could you judge this from how the bike is going down the road, or would you also have to see the face/head/eyes of the operator?
At the school we use a camera mounted above and behind the rider, so you can see the rider's head and their steering action, so it is really easy to see it when a rider looks and turns at the same moment, instead of looking BEFORE they turn.
If you couldn't see the rider's head, there are other indicators. For example, if the rider is just riding around a curve in the center of his lane, that would indicate he doesn't understand turn points - he is making no attempt to straighten out the turn, and is probably having to make a lot of steering corrections. Before you can tackle 2-step, the rider needs to be able to understand turn points and how to choose one.
If the rider drifts into turns early, and ends up running wide on exits, that can indicate that he is not yet able to separate looking from turning, so when he looks into the turn he is also unintentionally steering the bike in; he needs to use 2-step to make sure he hits his chosen turn point before turning the bike.
Another indicator is accuracy to the apex - assuming normal turns with good visibility, if the rider's lines never get near the apex of the turn, or if he appears to be very inconsistent with apexes, that would indicate a weakness in 2-step. Either the rider is not choosing an apex point or he is so late in looking at it that he can't get the bike there.
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A coach watching a video of a student on an unknown road would watch to see that the rider looked in (at a chosen apex or midcorner point) BEFORE turning the bike. The two step is designed to separate looking in from turning in. If the rider looked into the turn and turned the bike simultaneously, or if the action of looking in caused him to start drifting into the turn, that would indicate that he is not using the two step.
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When you say "punch" on the bars, that makes me wonder - are you making a jabbing motion at the bars? Quick turn requires a firm push on the bar, but not a punch - that can result in a wobble in the steering. At the school, check with your coach on exactly how you are executing your quick turn, that might uncover the source of the problem.
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Streets of Willow also does not have the noise restrictions that Laguna has, and due to other logistics you can get a bit more time with your coach at Streets. Laguna is prettier, and more well-known, and has the corkscrew which is a fun thing to ride, but for overall training benefit it is hard to beat Streets of Willow.
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OK, OK, I'll jump in.
I'm at Barber in the midst of schools, working on an iPhone so I wont try to include any quotes! I laughed aloud at the descriptions of trying to follow faster riders. It's happened to me, too, of course, most memorably at Fontana. A guy ahead of me was going into Turn 1 faster than I had ever gone, and I thought -well, if he can do it, I can do it! But he didn't make it, he went straight off into a runoff area! Suddenly I had to decide whether to follow him off or turn. I made the turn (barely) but I definitely learned a lesson, you have to ride your own ride!
We see it at the school, of course - a rider gets passed and then gets a little red mist going - but as everyone here seems to have learned, it can certainly fire up all sorts of SRs to suddenly find yourself entering a turn at Mach 10!
Riding Instructions Pre Css
in Cornering and Techniques
Posted
Goodness, THAT certainly made me appreciate the improvements in suspension and tires since that video was made!