Want To Be Leaning Further

[acebobby]

I feel like I have reached a barrier that I am struggling to break through, getting more lean angle! I feel like I'm leaning over quite far but when I see pictures of myself they tell a diferent story, also my tyre wear tells me I could be over further! I use the quick turn technique combined with the 2 step vision drill and by doing this am able to put the bike over the exact area of road that I choose, I know this because I play around with it a bit e.g. I look towards my chosen apex area (where I am going next), chosen turn point is now in peripheral vision, reach chosen turn point, quick turn, relax, crack open throttle and drive exactly where I intended!

So is this just a speed SR I am encountering or is it a lean angle SR? I read in one of the books that the human body is happy to be vertical or horizontal but not comfortable with the transition in between the two, could this be my problem?

I have booked track time for next week and would like to overcome this so any suggestions are very welcome or would it be as simple as picking a few corners on the track and doing the above e.g while gradually increasing my speed and speed of quick turn every lap! lol that sounds easier said than done

[Kevin Kane]

Acebobby;

 

I have always beleived that lean angle is a component of cornering and when isolated as a goal of and by itself becomes a problem.

 

If your Two-Step and Quick Turn focus has you on the line you want, I would suggest that you try to incrementally add to your entry speed by very small margins. As your entry speed increases, you will by necessity need more lean angle to carry the same line (or arc in this case). If you do this in small chunks maybe only focusing on one or two corners each lap, you will see an improvement in your lap times. A few seasons ago I mentioned a similar frustration to my CSS Coach at Mid-Ohio and he recommended that I try this technique. As I became more comfortable with the selected corners, I found without even realizing it that I had begun to make the same adjustement at other corners. YRMV but it worked wonders for me.

 

The goal was accomplished by focusing on cornering more thoroughly including better corner entry speed and not from even thinking about lean angle.

 

Kevin

 

PS Working for CSS as a Corner Worker last season, I remember expressing concern about a member of our Corner Working team using way too much lean angle for the speed he was carrying into every turn. Within three laps, he dragged a footpeg and ended his day with an expensive low side.

[hubbard_28]

Could be a couple things. You might not have your head down far enough. Your body gets the impression that you're falling when you dip into a turn without your head being low already and wants to, at least keep you from falling, if not straighten you up altogether. That forms a definite barrier.

And as Kevin said above, you might just need more speed. If you have a carousel type corner just get into your position, stay steady with your steering, but try making small, SMALL, body positions at a time while in the corner. Try to lean more off, keep your head down, and try to push the bike more straight up and down. You'll have enough time in a longer corner, like a carousel, to feel the difference and be able to see if it works or not. Take the time around the rest of the track to implement what works to reenforce it.

Of course, you just might not be cut out to be doing this. KIDDING. Take your time and stay focused and it will come to you. Get a track expert to watch or follow you, and they'll be able to tell you more than we can without seeing you ride or pics of your BP.

[hubbard_28]

This is from a couple trackdays ago, and you can see I still have a ways to go. I worked on it in the carousel Saturday and am doing way better with my head position, but still need to lift the bike more so I can carry more speed. Lifting the bike will allow me to lean more. I have stock pegs, so I'm almost maxing the bike out in some corners. There is also space between my chest and the tank. I look small in this pic, but I'm 6'2, 210 lbs.

[acebobby]

Acebobby;

 

I have always beleived that lean angle is a component of cornering and when isolated as a goal of and by itself becomes a problem.

 

If your Two-Step and Quick Turn focus has you on the line you want, I would suggest that you try to incrementally add to your entry speed by very small margins. As your entry speed increases, you will by necessity need more lean angle to carry the same line (or arc in this case). If you do this in small chunks maybe only focusing on one or two corners each lap, you will see an improvement in your lap times. A few seasons ago I mentioned a similar frustration to my CSS Coach at Mid-Ohio and he recommended that I try this technique. As I became more comfortable with the selected corners, I found without even realizing it that I had begun to make the same adjustement at other corners. YRMV but it worked wonders for me.

 

The goal was accomplished by focusing on cornering more thoroughly including better corner entry speed and not from even thinking about lean angle.

 

Kevin

 

PS Working for CSS as a Corner Worker last season, I remember expressing concern about a member of our Corner Working team using way too much lean angle for the speed he was carrying into every turn. Within three laps, he dragged a footpeg and ended his day with an expensive low side.

 

Thanks for the quick reply Kevin, I think that what you are saying is correct about isolating lean angle as a goal, it is becoming a frustrating obsession to me as every time I finish riding I immediately look at my rear tyre to see if I have worn it over the edge. I also think like you say if I pick a corner and gradually enter it a little quicker I will speed up in other corners by default!

I feel a little bit of entry speed is the barrier I face here, I have practiced the e.g. procedure I gave in my previous post for cornering for a while now and I believe that to be correct, I think I have spent so much of my $10 of attention on it that I never had any left for more speed, so that where I have been practicing is within my speed comfort zone. Since studying the CSS methods I can see that you can carry too much lean angle as I have been riding with people who do wear over the edge of the tyre but are clearly not riding as fast as me, this re-enforces to me that what I practice is correct, I am riding faster than them and have more lean angle available than them, (imagine how much faster I could be if I could use that extra lean angle)!

I think the answer to my next little riding breakthrough is going to come from challenging my speed comfort zone, I need to free up a few dollars of attention, but cannot lose anything from my cornering procedure as this has become a rule I strictly adhere to.

Sorry if this is a bit of a mixed up response, hope it makes sense!

 

 

B

[acebobby]

Could be a couple things. You might not have your head down far enough. Your body gets the impression that you're falling when you dip into a turn without your head being low already and wants to, at least keep you from falling, if not straighten you up altogether. That forms a definite barrier.

And as Kevin said above, you might just need more speed. If you have a carousel type corner just get into your position, stay steady with your steering, but try making small, SMALL, body positions at a time while in the corner. Try to lean more off, keep your head down, and try to push the bike more straight up and down. You'll have enough time in a longer corner, like a carousel, to feel the difference and be able to see if it works or not. Take the time around the rest of the track to implement what works to reenforce it.

Of course, you just might not be cut out to be doing this. KIDDING. Take your time and stay focused and it will come to you. Get a track expert to watch or follow you, and they'll be able to tell you more than we can without seeing you ride or pics of your BP.

 

 

Since doing my level 1 with CSS I have really relaxed my body position for the moment to the point where I dont really hang of much now, I do however aim to get my head looking between the screen and the mirror, this forces my body quite low on the bike and gives a nice bend in my elbows for good power in my counter steering, the reason I stopped hanging of so much is that I learned so much at my level 1 day that I wanted to practice my drills without the distraction of moving about and unsettling my bike so much, ironically I am faster and smoother now than I used to be when I used to really hang off,(and I lean the bike less, how strange) so I decided to build on my level 1 drills! you are at a much higher level than I am at the moment and my main concern is that I am worried about messing with my body position to much incase I find a good feeling position then when I do my level 3 find out its wrong and have to change everything, I intend to do levels 2 and 3 early next year and feel that if I have my level 1 drills up to a good standard it will make it easier for myself and my instructor to focus on what is to be learned/taught throughout the next 2 levels.

 

Your picture looks good to me, and to have the ability to ride a bike like that is my longterm goal, It makes it clear to me that by studying and practicing the CSS techniques is opening a big can of worms that will never end, from instructors to students we are all working on something, what can be a major block to one person can be achieved without a second thought to another, but one thing everyone on this forum knows is that when we work so hard to get over a riding barrier there is another even bigger barrier waiting for us! Its great!

 

As for not being cut out for this I maybe just sell my bike and buy a sewing machine and go into the leather repair business LOL! seriously though I know I will never be a racer, riding my bike is what I do for fun and my goal is to be the best I can be and the help and advice from everyone on this forum is an amazing advatage to help achieving that!

 

B

[hubbard_28]

I couldn't stop laughing at the sewing machine comment.

I don't know how much I have on you. November will be a year that I've been doing track, and before that I was never a canyon rider or anything of the sort. I commuted. It's practice and attention to detail. Without leaning off the bike, the peg or a hard part will quickly become an indicator of the bikes max lean angle. You can lay the bike on its side, and it's going to give you the exact amount of how far you can go.

I spent a long time fighting the bike, and the more I got off the bike, the more comfortable I got. And just going faster around a corner had nothing to do with my improvement. When I tried that on a couple trackdays I nearly lost the fight a number of times. It had everything to do with positioning. My hands, thighs, feet, shoulders. And it continues. Be VERY careful on a track thinking that just going faster will be the answer. Especially in the corners.

[acebobby]

I couldn't stop laughing at the sewing machine comment.

I don't know how much I have on you. November will be a year that I've been doing track, and before that I was never a canyon rider or anything of the sort. I commuted. It's practice and attention to detail. Without leaning off the bike, the peg or a hard part will quickly become an indicator of the bikes max lean angle. You can lay the bike on its side, and it's going to give you the exact amount of how far you can go.

I spent a long time fighting the bike, and the more I got off the bike, the more comfortable I got. And just going faster around a corner had nothing to do with my improvement. When I tried that on a couple trackdays I nearly lost the fight a number of times. It had everything to do with positioning. My hands, thighs, feet, shoulders. And it continues. Be VERY careful on a track thinking that just going faster will be the answer. Especially in the corners.

 

 

I was out on my bike today and decided to experiment with hanging off and body position a bit, was only out for a road ride so I was taking it easy at quite low speeds but I found it comfortable after a while! I also found that my outside leg seemed to fit the profile of the tank much better and in turn this put me in a more natural position to do the calf raise making me feel securely locked onto the bike thanks to the stompgrip. I did however run into a few little problems that I will need to practice out, firstly I found myself trying to turn in earlier than I would like even when picking a turn in point I still felt myself drifting in a little bit early, this slowed my quick turn down, I think this will be easly fixed on the track on monday when I have consistant turn points and the benifit of repeating the same corners over and over on the track! The other problem I had was the urge to pull my head in when the bike leaned over, thats like an SR reaction in its self. So I am looking forward to my track time on monday to practice this along with my L1 drills!

 

thanks for the advice

 

B

[Jaybird180]

Some people teach and demonstrate hanging off differently than others. I've never seen a pic of mine, but I have a monkey hanging style. I get waaay off the seat (nearly 3/4 butt) and my inside foot is used as a lever to lock my position. I consciously focus on my foot pressure, and LOOKING INTO THE TURN. My head then is far over and faceshield into the breeze. My only task at this point is to add gas.

 

Like you, I do find that it's easier to have the tendency to turn-in too early, but this is working on a carousel like section of practice area on the street. Darn traffic can sometimes be on my intended line.

[acebobby]

track time this morning turned out to be torrential rain, still had a good time though never got the chance to improve my entry speed or lean angle, I did however get a good opportunity to work on my level 1 drills, especially throttle control, never got it sliding like Nicky Hayden at Indy but did work hard on keeping it smooth throughout the corners!

[Cobie Fair]

Some people teach and demonstrate hanging off differently than others. I've never seen a pic of mine, but I have a monkey hanging style. I get waaay off the seat (nearly 3/4 butt) and my inside foot is used as a lever to lock my position. I consciously focus on my foot pressure, and LOOKING INTO THE TURN. My head then is far over and faceshield into the breeze. My only task at this point is to add gas.

 

Like you, I do find that it's easier to have the tendency to turn-in too early, but this is working on a carousel like section of practice area on the street. Darn traffic can sometimes be on my intended line.

 

One problem can be (with hanging way off) holding onto the bars. That can create some real handling problems with the bike, we see that a lot at the school. Some guys can do it, but it has posed problems for many (tight on the bars). Tons of data on this in Twist 2 (do I sound like a broken record with that?

 

Cobie

[hubbard_28]

Some people teach and demonstrate hanging off differently than others. I've never seen a pic of mine, but I have a monkey hanging style. I get waaay off the seat (nearly 3/4 butt) and my inside foot is used as a lever to lock my position. I consciously focus on my foot pressure, and LOOKING INTO THE TURN. My head then is far over and faceshield into the breeze. My only task at this point is to add gas.

 

Like you, I do find that it's easier to have the tendency to turn-in too early, but this is working on a carousel like section of practice area on the street. Darn traffic can sometimes be on my intended line.

 

One problem can be (with hanging way off) holding onto the bars. That can create some real handling problems with the bike, we see that a lot at the school. Some guys can do it, but it has posed problems for many (tight on the bars). Tons of data on this in Twist 2 (do I sound like a broken record with that?

 

Cobie

I've just advanced my position more, and it required hanging my upper torso farther off the bike, and quickly came to figure that I could get lots of pressure off the bars in a turn by relaxing my inside shoulder. I just let my shoulder and elbow drop and the bike pushed itself around the corner perfectly. Even compensated some for track imperfections. The difference was day and night.

[Cobie Fair]

I've just advanced my position more, and it required hanging my upper torso farther off the bike, and quickly came to figure that I could get lots of pressure off the bars in a turn by relaxing my inside shoulder. I just let my shoulder and elbow drop and the bike pushed itself around the corner perfectly. Even compensated some for track imperfections. The difference was day and night.

 

Got it. Upper body more to the inside, that'll work.

 

C

[hubbard_28]

 

Got it. Upper body more to the inside, that'll work.

 

C

Yeah. I still glue my chest to the tank, and even though the rider coaching me said I'm still not in the ideal position, it's something I can really work on specifically for probably the next few trackdays. What makes it feel even more secure is taking that pressure off the bars. His question after I told him my next statement was "why were you looking," but it's weird not seeing the other side of the track. I mean in my periphery when I say this.

I've also got to work on feet pressure. A couple trackdays ago I punched my foot peg through the sole of my boot. Probably shouldn't be pressing that hard.

[Cobie Fair]

Yeah. I still glue my chest to the tank, and even though the rider coaching me said I'm still not in the ideal position, it's something I can really work on specifically for probably the next few trackdays. What makes it feel even more secure is taking that pressure off the bars. His question after I told him my next statement was "why were you looking," but it's weird not seeing the other side of the track. I mean in my periphery when I say this.

I've also got to work on feet pressure. A couple trackdays ago I punched my foot peg through the sole of my boot. Probably shouldn't be pressing that hard.

 

Better your feet than using the hands, no?

 

C

[Cobie Fair]

Yeah. I still glue my chest to the tank, and even though the rider coaching me said I'm still not in the ideal position, it's something I can really work on specifically for probably the next few trackdays. What makes it feel even more secure is taking that pressure off the bars. His question after I told him my next statement was "why were you looking," but it's weird not seeing the other side of the track. I mean in my periphery when I say this.

I've also got to work on feet pressure. A couple trackdays ago I punched my foot peg through the sole of my boot. Probably shouldn't be pressing that hard.

 

Better your feet than using the hands, no?

 

C

[Cobie Fair]

Yeah. I still glue my chest to the tank, and even though the rider coaching me said I'm still not in the ideal position, it's something I can really work on specifically for probably the next few trackdays. What makes it feel even more secure is taking that pressure off the bars. His question after I told him my next statement was "why were you looking," but it's weird not seeing the other side of the track. I mean in my periphery when I say this.

I've also got to work on feet pressure. A couple trackdays ago I punched my foot peg through the sole of my boot. Probably shouldn't be pressing that hard.

 

Better your feet than using the hands, no?

 

C