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Entry Speed


poncho
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Hi Guys,

 

I have been reading a lot of the twist of the wrist, I need to figure out how to increase my entry speed, ie, from the POT to the Apex, i dont think I am slow out of the corners, in most cases I seem to be able to make time coming out, but loosing out in the first section of the corner.

 

Question - Am I loosing out on the time taken to change direction, that is to making the turn or do i need to work on coming harder on the gas once I have completed my turning procedure?

 

Appriciate you view and comments

 

PS - took out 16 seconds from my lap time between Vol 1 and 2.

 

Thanks

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When you say you need to increase entry speed, what makes you think that? Are your competitors passing you on corner entries? What are you comparing your speed to?

 

Other than that, the most obvious reason for not going faster into a corner is:

 

Your "Going too fast" SR is kicking in. Most likely because you're not LOOKING and PLANNING far enough ahead. Where are you located right now, how fast are you (really) going, and where are you heading? Do you have good Reference Points? Are you applying the two-step and quick-flick techniques?

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When you say you need to increase entry speed, what makes you think that? Are your competitors passing you on corner entries? What are you comparing your speed to?

 

Other than that, the most obvious reason for not going faster into a corner is Your "Going too fast" SR is kicking in. Most likely because you're not LOOKING and PLANNING far enough ahead. Where are you located right now, how fast are you (really) going, and where are you heading? Do you have good Reference Points? Are you applying the two-step and quick-flick techniques?

 

Thanks for the reply

 

You hit the nail on the head, I am being passed into the corner, dont think I am working up any SR on my way in, its just that most of the guys go in a lot faster than me, but on the exit, i can make up the a certain level of speed.

 

I am currently about 2 seconds off the pace against my competitor, I am leading the championship going into the final 2 rounds. I do use the 2 stage vision technique and also am using the quick steer technique.

 

Most of the observers including my own team mates tell me I am riding by the book, meaning I ride in a very classical style, no turning early, chopping throtle mid corner and stuff.. I am ever super consistent, last race I put in 7 laps out of a 8 lap race between 2:00:060 and 2:00:648.

 

After watching my competitor and riding with him for a few corners I just felt he as faster on the first section of a turn

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Maybe you just need to re-evaluate your strategy for that particular track. On a small, twisty track it can sometimes make sense go a little faster into the corner, at the compromise of lower exit speed. On more open tracks with long straightways, "slow in - fast out" is always the way to go. Have you tried to simply copy what your competitor is doing? Staying right behind him in the same line at the same speed as him? Or does the higher entry speed feel uncomfortable to you?

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Maybe you just need to re-evaluate your strategy for that particular track. On a small, twisty track it can sometimes make sense go a little faster into the corner, at the compromise of lower exit speed. On more open tracks with long straightways, "slow in - fast out" is always the way to go. Have you tried to simply copy what your competitor is doing? Staying right behind him in the same line at the same speed as him? Or does the higher entry speed feel uncomfortable to you?

 

 

Higher entry speed is where i am trying to go, how do you do it... go i faster,

 

1. do i need to change POT, may be earlier??

2. should I experiment with trail braking? not too comfortable with this one, dont have good feel for the front

3. Do I get more agressive on the gas once i finish my turning?

4. Do try a different line?

 

Speed for me is relative, and i add very little of it, in my opinion I need work on point # 3 get more agressive on the gas once I finish the turn, just wanted to get everyones views.

 

My competitor is on very different hardware, he is racing a 2007 CBR600rr with every HRC part on it, and he is also comfortable with trail braking.

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Maybe you just need to re-evaluate your strategy for that particular track. On a small, twisty track it can sometimes make sense go a little faster into the corner, at the compromise of lower exit speed. On more open tracks with long straightways, "slow in - fast out" is always the way to go. Have you tried to simply copy what your competitor is doing? Staying right behind him in the same line at the same speed as him? Or does the higher entry speed feel uncomfortable to you?

 

 

Higher entry speed is where i am trying to go, how do you do it... go i faster,

 

1. do i need to change POT, may be earlier??

2. should I experiment with trail braking? not too comfortable with this one, dont have good feel for the front

3. Do I get more agressive on the gas once i finish my turning?

4. Do try a different line?

 

Speed for me is relative, and i add very little of it, in my opinion I need work on point # 3 get more agressive on the gas once I finish the turn, just wanted to get everyones views.

 

My competitor is on very different hardware, he is racing a 2007 CBR600rr with every HRC part on it, and he is also comfortable with trail braking.

 

I'm afraid it's quite impossible to suggest specific ways to improve your overall lap times without first seeing what you are doing NOW..

The only thing I can say is that it seems that your opponent is doing "something" right, so try to copy what he does (copy his lines, body position, speed etc). If you simply can't make yourself enter the turn at the same speed as your opponent, I still think it could be an SR (going too fast, not enough traction, too much lean..) that is kicking in. Sorry I can't be any more specific. Perhaps someone else will chime in with some fresh ideas, that's the beauty of this forum.. :)

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Maybe you just need to re-evaluate your strategy for that particular track. On a small, twisty track it can sometimes make sense go a little faster into the corner, at the compromise of lower exit speed. On more open tracks with long straightways, "slow in - fast out" is always the way to go. Have you tried to simply copy what your competitor is doing? Staying right behind him in the same line at the same speed as him? Or does the higher entry speed feel uncomfortable to you?

 

 

Higher entry speed is where i am trying to go, how do you do it... go i faster,

 

1. do i need to change POT, may be earlier??

2. should I experiment with trail braking? not too comfortable with this one, dont have good feel for the front

3. Do I get more agressive on the gas once i finish my turning?

4. Do try a different line?

 

Speed for me is relative, and i add very little of it, in my opinion I need work on point # 3 get more agressive on the gas once I finish the turn, just wanted to get everyones views.

 

My competitor is on very different hardware, he is racing a 2007 CBR600rr with every HRC part on it, and he is also comfortable with trail braking.

A couple of your questions sort of come together. Changing your POT inevitably mends with trying a different line. If you're making good time coming out of the corners, doing that could screw up your exiting. Type I corners are key because of the drive out of them, so working on something else is probably better. You could look at changing BP earlier after hard braking to set up the corner and be more comfortable keeping more speed going in.

If you don't know about or don't practice "blipping the throttle," it's something you could definitely work on, particularly in corners that require downshifting. In an entire track this will give you tenths of a second. You loose a lot of speed when downshifting if you don't do this, and that alone could be where your speed goes. MotoGP lets you hear the racers do it, and you can hear it frequently.

It COULD just be SR. On a track I've been riding most of the summer, there are two corners that riders love to go into way too slow when they're fast corners. One combines straights where the second straight ends in a slower corner, and is an 85-90 mph corner that the people in my class come off the throttle to go into. Almost every single person. They take it at 70-75 mph. I practiced with on a trackday with riders who were warming up for a race the next day, and the newer riders were even doing it. It is a corner that allows me to make up great time on them.

A couple corners later is another one. It's a left followed by an immediate double apex right, and so many people are scared to just throw it into the left, because they're setting up for the rights. They have a hard time understanding that a fast left will throw them into the rights and let them launch down the straight after. Having the problem with the speed is probably the hardest thing to overcome if that is the problem, though.

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Higher entry speed is where i am trying to go, how do you do it... go i faster,

 

1. do i need to change POT, may be earlier??

2. should I experiment with trail braking? not too comfortable with this one, dont have good feel for the front

3. Do I get more agressive on the gas once i finish my turning?

4. Do try a different line?

 

1) Probably not. I doubt I would change my turn point if I felt like I had a good line already. You may need to turn the bike faster though.

 

2) Trail braking may be aplicable in some corners, but as a rule it probably won't help you with your entry speed, probably make you slower goin in.

 

3) If you can that is always a good think for lap times. You should try to bring the rear tire right to the edge of traction as soon as you can comming off the corner, but you have to balance that with timming your drive correctly so you don't run wide.

 

4) Can't say, if you have good lines then you shouldn't need to change them...

 

 

 

I can recomend something that you can try durring practice that is the best thing I've ever found for improving your entry speed. Ride a session of two "No Brakes" and focus on trying to enter the corner faster without touching the brakes. Riding no brakes really gives you time before the corner to judge your entry speed and gives you a much better sense of how fast you are going in. If you can get good at riding no brakes I'm sure you will find your entry speeds improve. You will probably need to work on having the confedence to turn the bike quickly and you will have to be patien with this drill as it can be frustrating riding around no brakes, because you just can't go quite as fast. But give it a try and I'm sure you will find that your entry speed will improve.

 

Hope that helps....

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Hi Poncho,

 

I agree with Stuman. The "no brakes" drill is the ultimate tool for evaluating and increasing entry speed.

 

I also agree it is valuable to follow your nemesis around to see where he is faster, if nothing else. You said he is on an HRC kitted 600. The kitting shouldn't have much effect on entry speed. But, what bike are you on? Are you also on a 600? If you are on a bigger bike, you might not be able to enter as fast, but, you should be able to make up time on the exit if you quick turn fast enough to complete the turn sooner and pick it up early enough to utilize your superior horsepower for a better drive down the straight to the next bend.

 

I would also suggest that you might be able to gradually increase your entry speed by adjusting your braking zone such that you let off the brakes a little earlier each time. Try letting off sooner and sooner so you gradually increase your entry speed yet leaving yourself some space to correct if SR's say you are too fast. You will need to be very aware of your braking zone markers/RP's to use this technique.

 

Cheers,

 

racer

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Thanks a lot guys, just finished a race weekend, and as usual finished 2nd place, dropped another second, and also cracked the mystical 2 minute lap time, something I have dreamed of doing for a long time, put in a lot of work on it....

 

Just for the record, I have tried the no brake drill, but I found some time, just having different approch into 2 corners and being a lot more agressive on the gas, and also found some time on the brakes... new target 1:55

 

Can anyone advise me where I can read up on overtaking manuvers and how to make them stick?

 

Thanks again

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Thanks a lot guys, just finished a race weekend, and as usual finished 2nd place, dropped another second, and also cracked the mystical 2 minute lap time, something I have dreamed of doing for a long time, put in a lot of work on it....

 

Just for the record, I have tried the no brake drill, but I found some time, just having different approch into 2 corners and being a lot more agressive on the gas, and also found some time on the brakes... new target 1:55

 

Can anyone advise me where I can read up on overtaking manuvers and how to make them stick?

 

Thanks again

 

 

Try to get Performance Riding Techniques (the motogp manual of track riding skills) published by Haynes! Written by Andy Ibbot! foreword by Keith Code!

This book is excellent and should have the information you need, I have it in front of me now and it has sections on overtaking and outwitting opponents along with everything else you need to know when racing!

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I have Performance Riding Techniques sitting right next to me, and love it. I don't know if just reading a book will do it. A great thing to do is watch races. There are plenty of helmet or bike mounted camera video's on the internet you can watch also. You'll notice a pattern and be able to actually see what you've read and watch it being applied before you try it. Applying that with the late braking, changing your corner entry points, and apexing in some cases, will be very helpful, because when you pass going into a corner, the most popular spot, you won't be able to use the whole track and hit the passing corner with the same speed as usual. If you have it, TIVO races and watch the passes and where they pass. 250 GP has close races with a lot of passing.

I know where I should pass, and practice getting inside on riders, but am not that aggressive because I don't want to ruin anyones trackday. My last trackday was with the racers prepping for the next day racing, and I was able to get inside of a few of them. I really worked on late braking and getting up beside them then focused on slowing down to get into the corner properly as I was not able to use the whole track and hold the same line as usual.

And remember that you haven't really successfully passed them until you get around the next corner and are still in front.

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I have Performance Riding Techniques sitting right next to me, and love it. I don't know if just reading a book will do it. A great thing to do is watch races. There are plenty of helmet or bike mounted camera video's on the internet you can watch also. You'll notice a pattern and be able to actually see what you've read and watch it being applied before you try it. Applying that with the late braking, changing your corner entry points, and apexing in some cases, will be very helpful, because when you pass going into a corner, the most popular spot, you won't be able to use the whole track and hit the passing corner with the same speed as usual. If you have it, TIVO races and watch the passes and where they pass. 250 GP has close races with a lot of passing.

I know where I should pass, and practice getting inside on riders, but am not that aggressive because I don't want to ruin anyones trackday. My last trackday was with the racers prepping for the next day racing, and I was able to get inside of a few of them. I really worked on late braking and getting up beside them then focused on slowing down to get into the corner properly as I was not able to use the whole track and hold the same line as usual.

And remember that you haven't really successfully passed them until you get around the next corner and are still in front.

 

 

Just ordered the book, waiting for it...

 

Thanks for all the support, yup I have a live example of getting a overtaking manuver to stick, in India the 1000cc and the 600cc are all one race, with different postition for the 600cc class and the 1000cc, I would always end up overtaking the lt guys on the exit on to the straight, and half way down they would just blow by me... will read up and sort it out for my self...

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Higher entry speed is where i am trying to go, how do you do it... go i faster,

 

1. do i need to change POT, may be earlier??

2. should I experiment with trail braking? not too comfortable with this one, dont have good feel for the front

3. Do I get more agressive on the gas once i finish my turning?

4. Do try a different line?

 

1) Probably not. I doubt I would change my turn point if I felt like I had a good line already. You may need to turn the bike faster though.

 

2) Trail braking may be aplicable in some corners, but as a rule it probably won't help you with your entry speed, probably make you slower goin in.

 

3) If you can that is always a good think for lap times. You should try to bring the rear tire right to the edge of traction as soon as you can comming off the corner, but you have to balance that with timming your drive correctly so you don't run wide.

 

4) Can't say, if you have good lines then you shouldn't need to change them...

 

 

 

I can recomend something that you can try durring practice that is the best thing I've ever found for improving your entry speed. Ride a session of two "No Brakes" and focus on trying to enter the corner faster without touching the brakes. Riding no brakes really gives you time before the corner to judge your entry speed and gives you a much better sense of how fast you are going in. If you can get good at riding no brakes I'm sure you will find your entry speeds improve. You will probably need to work on having the confedence to turn the bike quickly and you will have to be patien with this drill as it can be frustrating riding around no brakes, because you just can't go quite as fast. But give it a try and I'm sure you will find that your entry speed will improve.

 

Hope that helps....

 

I took level I and level II and riding with "No Breaks" help me a lot, I realize that I can go in to the corner a little faster and I am sure that this could fix his problem. I will be doing level 3 and 4 this weekend, can't wait!

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It was a combination of 3 things -

 

1. less brakes

2. Quciker Steering (more agressive)

3. Faster on the gas

 

Found 3 seconds over the weekend, only problem I guess everyone seriously upped their hardware for the last weekend races, so everyone dropped about 3 seconds :-( will keep working on it..

 

Thanks

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It was a combination of 3 things -

 

1. less brakes

2. Quciker Steering (more agressive)

3. Faster on the gas

 

Found 3 seconds over the weekend, only problem I guess everyone seriously upped their hardware for the last weekend races, so everyone dropped about 3 seconds :-( will keep working on it..

 

Thanks

 

I don't know the size of this track, but in most cases 3 seconds is quite a lot, and I doubt that hardware ALONE can account for such improvement.

 

Unless of course the bikes were VERY poorly tuned before they were upgraded / overhauled, which is rather unlikely..?

 

 

Congrats on your lap time improvement! :)

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Every one upped the rubber, mostly people ran the pilot power, now everyone runs the Pirellis, I guess these are really delivering results, both the onelts that finished in front of me, ran Full front suspension and rear WSBK suspension from Bitubo !!! Serious power with full exhaust systems, head gaskets and all kinds of tuning gadgets.

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