Double Turns / Double Apex Turns

[teg]

hello all

i,d like a bit of feedback and general on the following . As i,ve got faster i,ve realised that certain turns close together , example double lefts or double rights often become 1 turn , depending on their proximity to one another obviously .

What i mean is ideally i go thro the same drill for a turn , turn point , hook turn apex , exit / pickup drill etc. then move the body back onto the bike last to usually head down the next straight .

However when the turn is followed by another turn in the same direction there is no straight so after the first turn an i,m picking the bike up sometimes it doesn,t get time to be stood up vertical b-4 the next turn or 2nd part of the turn depending how you call it .

In this case i,m trying to get back to the bike after pick up drill without the bike ever getting fully upright so that i can lock in and counter steer in to the next turn and go through the same drills again .

i have got better at this with time ,i think mainly realising that these situations are a compromise , and also making a definite steer the bike to the exit of the first part and that as the speed has gone up the 2 turns have to be knitted together to get the best end product .

Also a similair situation on double apex turns , when does a double left or double right become a double apex turn ?or is this down to interperetation.

Example : at cadwell park in the u.k uphill approach to Charlies 1 and 2 , now these 2 rights are close to each other the first is an uphill positive camber with the 2nd negative camber downhill onto a straight .

Now i,ve personally always thought of Charles 1 and 2 as 1 long double apex turn ... whether this is right ot wrong maybe someone will enlighten me or maybe it doesn,t matter as long as you realise the 2 parts .

Now i know these are awkward questions because of peoples interpretations but just though i,d fire it out there and see , because whenever i,ve got a problem with my riding and say to myself i just sort of do this / that , i know i,m not comfortable because everywhere else i know definitely what i,m at least trying to do (mistakes aside ) there is no just sort of , just do and a method .

your thoughts ??? cheers .

whoops !! i meant to add this to the school questions section , oh well if anyone can move it to there great , if not i,ll post agian in a few days to that

[Cobie Fair]

Hi Teg,

 

I've gone ahead and moved the topic.

 

It sounds like you have done all the school levels, is that correct? You refer to Level 2 and 3 techniques, so I'm assuming so.

 

I'm not 100% clear on the exact question you have, how to treat 2 turns that run one after the other and flow into 1 turn? Are you wondering if you are handling the turns correctly, are other guys doing better there than you, are you late on the throttle coming out, do you think you should be faster in the middle, do you have a turn point in the middle (is one even needed)? Here are some questions, we can even look at them one at a time, let us know.

 

Best,

Cobie

 

ps--we can use the Cadwell turns as a reference, if that helps

[teg]

Hi Teg,

 

I've gone ahead and moved the topic.

 

It sounds like you have done all the school levels, is that correct? You refer to Level 2 and 3 techniques, so I'm assuming so.

 

I'm not 100% clear on the exact question you have, how to treat 2 turns that run one after the other and flow into 1 turn? Are you wondering if you are handling the turns correctly, are other guys doing better there than you, are you late on the throttle coming out, do you think you should be faster in the middle, do you have a turn point in the middle (is one even needed)? Here are some questions, we can even look at them one at a time, let us know.

 

Best,

Cobie

 

ps--we can use the Cadwell turns as a reference, if that helps

thanks for moving topic cobie ,

done all the school levels over the last 2 years .

i suppose i,m asking about 3 questions at once , sorry for that .

but yes to your first question 2 turns that flow into 1 turn - i,m wondering whether i can handle them better particularly with regard to throttle application , i seem to have reasonable pace but the quick guys are better there on some of these turns ,i do have a turnn point for the 2nd part of these turns although not as accurate as i would like .

throttle feels like i should be slightly faster in the middle if anything .

At another track there are 2 lefts together after the fist as i,m going into the 2nd i,m trying to turn sometimes with the throttle open and then am briefly stuck with the throttle until i,m at apex . i think this is because i was tryin to make it without a roll off after the fist left .

i,ve since tried with a roll off after exiting the fist left with the bike as upright as possible then turning into 2nd left off throttle and then roll on as normal . this gets me good drive out of the 2nd left , BUT between exit of first left and entry to 2nd left feels slow and a bit no mans land , as if i,m slightly lost for a second or two .

thats the best way i can describe my problem i,ve been having , it has got better / faster .

[stuman]

2 turns that flow into 1 turn - i,m wondering whether i can handle them better particularly with regard to throttle application , i seem to have reasonable pace but the quick guys are better there on some of these turns ,i do have a turnn point for the 2nd part of these turns although not as accurate as i would like .

throttle feels like i should be slightly faster in the middle if anything .

 

 

I'm not sure I understand what you are asking here. My only advice with regard to the throttle in a double apex corner is that your throttle control should be pretty much as if it was two corners. Roll off, turn in for the first part of the turn, roll back on through the first part of the turn, then roll off and turn in for the second part of the turn, then roll on through the second part of the turn.

 

 

At another track there are 2 lefts together after the fist as i,m going into the 2nd i,m trying to turn sometimes with the throttle open and then am briefly stuck with the throttle until i,m at apex . i think this is because i was tryin to make it without a roll off after the fist left .

i,ve since tried with a roll off after exiting the fist left with the bike as upright as possible then turning into 2nd left off throttle and then roll on as normal . this gets me good drive out of the 2nd left , BUT between exit of first left and entry to 2nd left feels slow and a bit no mans land , as if i,m slightly lost for a second or two .

thats the best way i can describe my problem i,ve been having , it has got better / faster .

 

Sounds like trying to turn in with the throttle on isn't working very well for you. Why not roll off before you turn in so you can get back on the gas after you have completed your turn in?

[Cobie Fair]

Hi Teg,

 

I know Stuman answered, but one point that you bring up is that you feel slightly "lost" for a second.

 

This is pretty common. What are you going to need to do to sort this out? Will your Level 2 skills help here? Maybe more RP's, 2 step or 3 step?

 

One thing you might want to know: We've had some really top riders in the last few years, and even at a school in November we had a guy currently racing in 250 GP. He spent most of the 2 days working on visual skills. I wonder if they are the toughest to get really, really good at.

 

C

[teg]

Hi Teg,

 

I know Stuman answered, but one point that you bring up is that you feel slightly "lost" for a second.

 

This is pretty common. What are you going to need to do to sort this out? Will your Level 2 skills help here? Maybe more RP's, 2 step or 3 step?

 

One thing you might want to know: We've had some really top riders in the last few years, and even at a school in November we had a guy currently racing in 250 GP. He spent most of the 2 days working on visual skills. I wonder if they are the toughest to get really, really good at.

 

C

yes thanks stuman - i have tried as stuman said as far as the throttle application is concerned treating as 2 turns as opposed to tryin to turn in with the throttle partially opened into the 2nd turn and this has improved a lot .

Onto cobies point about feeling a bit lost i try and tell it like i see it or feel it so as to try and give you some clues to what i,m doing etc . as i,m sure you,ve nearly always seen these problems or versions of em before .

at rockingham un the u.k there is a series of 3 consecutive lefts and it is the first 2 together where i was having most problems 1st left o.k (called pif paf ) the next left (unamed) has to be incorporated with the exit of the first (pif paf ) .

Anyway i went to this track about 3 times and tried different solutions to this .

Interestingly i tried making a wider exit of the fisrt left to give a wider and more importantly LATER entry turn point to the 2nd left .

this resulted in a crash (i got away with it ) here as i was to wide to make the turn and had to stand her up b-4 goin down on the grass .

i thought on this for sometime after jumping to conclusions that i just turned to late --------after reading keith codes books and a bit of thought i believe the reason i went down wasn,t that my turn point for the 2nd left which was also the exit for the first left was particularly wide or late but the problem was surprise surprise me ! my theory is that i didn,t shift my vision fast enough from the turn point to my apex ,,, and the more i thought about it i didn,t have a nice definite apex - end result i ran off the outside of circuit .

 

i,ve since been back and got a better solution and result to these 2 turns ( lap times have improved ) and better r.p,s

maybe as you say the r.p,s are still not sharp enough here or maybe couple more linking r.p,s or i need to shift my vision in faster stages thro the linking turns

 

or maybe a combination to these - also now i know that its o.k to roll out of throttle and back on for the 2nd turn this will help me get a more definite end result here .

[Cobie Fair]

Hi Teg,

 

I know Stuman answered, but one point that you bring up is that you feel slightly "lost" for a second.

 

This is pretty common. What are you going to need to do to sort this out? Will your Level 2 skills help here? Maybe more RP's, 2 step or 3 step?

 

One thing you might want to know: We've had some really top riders in the last few years, and even at a school in November we had a guy currently racing in 250 GP. He spent most of the 2 days working on visual skills. I wonder if they are the toughest to get really, really good at.

 

C

yes thanks stuman - i have tried as stuman said as far as the throttle application is concerned treating as 2 turns as opposed to tryin to turn in with the throttle partially opened into the 2nd turn and this has improved a lot .

Onto cobies point about feeling a bit lost i try and tell it like i see it or feel it so as to try and give you some clues to what i,m doing etc . as i,m sure you,ve nearly always seen these problems or versions of em before .

at rockingham un the u.k there is a series of 3 consecutive lefts and it is the first 2 together where i was having most problems 1st left o.k (called pif paf ) the next left (unamed) has to be incorporated with the exit of the first (pif paf ) .

Anyway i went to this track about 3 times and tried different solutions to this .

Interestingly i tried making a wider exit of the fisrt left to give a wider and more importantly LATER entry turn point to the 2nd left .

this resulted in a crash (i got away with it ) here as i was to wide to make the turn and had to stand her up b-4 goin down on the grass .

i thought on this for sometime after jumping to conclusions that i just turned to late --------after reading keith codes books and a bit of thought i believe the reason i went down wasn,t that my turn point for the 2nd left which was also the exit for the first left was particularly wide or late but the problem was surprise surprise me ! my theory is that i didn,t shift my vision fast enough from the turn point to my apex ,,, and the more i thought about it i didn,t have a nice definite apex - end result i ran off the outside of circuit .

 

i,ve since been back and got a better solution and result to these 2 turns ( lap times have improved ) and better r.p,s

maybe as you say the r.p,s are still not sharp enough here or maybe couple more linking r.p,s or i need to shift my vision in faster stages thro the linking turns

 

or maybe a combination to these - also now i know that its o.k to roll out of throttle and back on for the 2nd turn this will help me get a more definite end result here .

 

Teg,

 

I think you're on the right track with the visual skills there. Sometimes we get guys that think a little narrowly regarding their RP's. Big things can be RP's. The line on the edge, or how far one is from another object. I think some guys can get stuck when there isn't a nice, handy, easy to see RP, right where they want it.

 

Of course, we knew some guys that would go out with a spay paint can before a National race. (Name withheld to protect the guilty).

 

CF

[teg]

hello folks

just realised ( i think ) that whenever i reply there are 2 options i think just post reply , or quote previous post and reply ---- or in my case i think i posted my last reply in this topic quoting the last 3 peoples posts ! sorry bout that ......

need a bit of crash course in forum use .

[Cobie Fair]

hello folks

just realised ( i think ) that whenever i reply there are 2 options i think just post reply , or quote previous post and reply ---- or in my case i think i posted my last reply in this topic quoting the last 3 peoples posts ! sorry bout that ......

need a bit of crash course in forum use .

 

Teg,

 

No worries, I just deleted that one. The bracket and word "quote" signify the beginning and end of those boxes. A slash also is in there, and I sometimes have to take one of the slashes out, from the beginning quote.

 

In the bottom right corner of your reply (to get a more coherent and complete answer) there is "BB Code Help".

 

That will explain it fully, with examples.

 

Best,

Cobie

[Chad Wille]

I'm not sure I understand what you are asking here. My only advice with regard to the throttle in a double apex corner is that your throttle control should be pretty much as if it was two corners. Roll off, turn in for the first part of the turn, roll back on through the first part of the turn, then roll off and turn in for the second part of the turn, then roll on through the second part of the turn.

 

Cobie, I've tried this on the double apex at my track and it can be done but seems like a lot of business for no gain. Twist 2, page 19 has a pretty good diagram of what my corner looks like. It seems to me that there is no reason to slow down for Turnpoint 1 since the corner can be set up to be pretty loose, almost a sweeper. If I trail brake and use throttle rule #1 for turnpoint #2 does that make sense? Anything wrong with this?

[johnnyrod]

Both these corners teg is talking about can be ridden as a single bend with two apexes, but there's no gap in the middle when the bike's upright (much if at all). At Cadwell it's a complex bend, you can apex only half way across the track in Charlies 1 as you need a wide entry to Charlies 2 in order to get decent drive onto Park Straight. At Rockingham the second left hander is a really wide bend, I find you get out of pifpaf and just accelerate all the way through the next one, if it were on its own you'd enter it a lot faster. If you exit wide from pifpaf you can keep the bike on its side and just carry on through in a really wide arc and carry tons of speed. I'm not sure I fancy shutting the throttle at the midpoint of either of those

[YellowDuck]

I am reading TOTW2 right now, and since definitions and proper use of technical language are emphasized, here is one for everyone, relevant to this thread:

 

plural of apex = apices. As in, "that corner actually has two apices".

 

....now back to your regularly scheduled, useful discussion....

[Hotfoot]

I am reading TOTW2 right now, and since definitions and proper use of technical language are emphasized, here is one for everyone, relevant to this thread:

 

plural of apex = apices. As in, "that corner actually has two apices".

 

....now back to your regularly scheduled, useful discussion....

 

I know from my book-larnin' that apices is the plural of apex (we often used the term apices in math classes)... but I so rarely hear "apices" at the racetrack, that your post prompted me to look it up in a few dictionaries. Each one listed both "apexes" and "apices" as acceptable plurals for apex. So I think we can get away with using "apexes", if we so choose; it may sound less sophisticated but it also may lower the risk of confusion, as a new rider may not recognize the term "apices".

[YellowDuck]

... but I so rarely hear "apices" at the racetrack

 

 

You must be hanging out with the guys on Japanese bikes...

 

I kid, I kid!

 

It's true though...people misuse words enough, and then the dictionaries finally give in. I used to tell my students that "data" was plural (i.e., "did you examine those data?", not "did you examine that data?"). But then the dictionaries relented and I couldn't really make that claim anyone. One could call this the tyranny of ignorance, but I guess it is just the evolution of the language.

 

The current shorthand used in text messaging has me a bit worried about where this is going though....

 

And I will NEVER give up on "affect / effect". NEVER! You can't make me!!!

 

 

Edit: After writing the above, I checked...and I can't actually find any evidence that "apices" is any older or more generally accepted than apexes....so maybe I am just being snotty....

[johnnyrod]

You're right Yellow Duck, I was going on the presumption that denizens of online fora (or forums as they are usually called) won't (all) understand "apices"