Mike3000 Posted May 10, 2009 Report Share Posted May 10, 2009 So, I have read advice from racers telling people to pressure the right footpeg to start the bike turning right. I have though to myself that these guys don't know what they're talking about. They might bee fast but they don't know why they are fast. If they had read Keith's books like I have they would know that te only thing that steers the bike is counter steering..... Anyway, today on the motorway I tried a little experiment. I stood up on the bike and lifted my left foot off the peg. Guess what happened, the bike started leaning and steering to the right. I must have countersteered without realising. I did it again making sure there was no pressure on the bars with the same result. I even tried it with a little countersteering to make the bike go left. Still the bike went right but not as much. By the way the motorway was fairly empty and I didn't let it steer very far. So maybe those racers do know what they are talking about. Maybe I need to see a video of the no BS bike with a rider standing on one peg for a sustained period, not bouncing on it very briefly. Thoughts? Mike Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hubbard_28 Posted May 10, 2009 Report Share Posted May 10, 2009 I don't know the accuracy of the test because of your position. Standing up leans you to the right, but you (hopefully) don't stand up when you're cornering on the track. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike3000 Posted May 11, 2009 Author Report Share Posted May 11, 2009 No I don't stand up on the track. I stood up to exagerate the pressure on the peg. The bike does steer by putting pressure on the pegs. This is bothering me because its a fundamental part of the CSS system that you can't turn a bike without counter steering. Well yesterday I did??? I believe I could do the same on the no BS bike. I do not believe that if the no BS bike rider stood on one peg only and leaned his body out that way that the bike would carry on in a straight line. I'm questioning this because I want to understand the science of riding a motor bike. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hubbard_28 Posted May 11, 2009 Report Share Posted May 11, 2009 I was joking about the standing up. Yesterday when it cooled off (100 degrees) I went out and tested some things. I did some runs at 20 and 30 mph in a huge parking lot to gage the bikes ability to stay straight when I'm off the handlebars. I tested what you did first, but I did it without my hands on the bars. Near them in case anything happened, but touching them would have, more than likely, unconsciously swayed my results. Exact same results. When I put pressure on the right peg, the bike went right, but it was at an uneven pace, and I never got comfortable guiding the bike like this. It just wanted to keep going right. Same with left. I think the lack of body input made it difficult to control. Then I tried it with my butt on the seat, and the same results. A little more controlled. I may have had swayed it by leaning a little, but I tried to minimize it. Next was the leaning off the bike. With even pressure on the pegs, and my butt hanging to the left, the bike went smoothly to the left. With added pressure on the left peg, I could control the steering to the left of the bike. If I wanted to go right with my body to the left, I could, but I had to twist my torso over the tank to the right, and again, added pressure on the right peg aided going to the right. When I put pressure on the right peg with my butt hanging to the left while attempting to go left, I could still make the bike go left, but there wasn't much control. I continued to have to grab on to the bars. When I had my body over to the left or right, and put just a little pressure on the same side peg, I could make the bike smoothly turn to the that side, and with much more stability and confidence. After about 30 minutes of working on this I could direct it in a right hand turn smoothly, and with a good amount of consistency. There is a sweeping left between the warehouses, and just about every time I was making it with no input on the bars (I was in neutral when I was testing this). I continued to have difficulty controlling the bike taking a left with by body leaning left, and putting outside peg pressure. I could do it, but it wasn't silky smooth (little Zohan reference for ya). I'd say it's worth everyone who hasn't played around with it to find a parking lot and try it. I'll do it more, because it is another thing that will increase my comfort on the bike, and I think it will be something I can add to my trackday Sunday to mess around with. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hubbard_28 Posted May 11, 2009 Report Share Posted May 11, 2009 This is bothering me because its a fundamental part of the CSS system that you can't turn a bike without counter steering. They always admit that some people are capable of working the "No BS machine" without the bars, but they are few and far between the people who can do it smoothly and consistently, as I understand. You can't make a sharp turn without handle bar input, and I think your test proves that BP and peg pressure can make track riding smoother when applied. Your thinking, and trial have definitely opened my eyes to this. There are some things we can read over and over, but until we understand it and try it or see it in action, we'll never get it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kevin Kane Posted May 11, 2009 Report Share Posted May 11, 2009 They always admit that some people are capable of working the "No BS machine" without the bars, but they are few and far between the people who can do it smoothly and consistently, as I understand. Having ridden the no BS bke more than once, I can attest that you cannot turn it. "They" (an instructor) told me that another instructor was able to make it turn gradually in a very wide open space but it was useless from a cornering a motorcycle perspective. There are no corners on any track that are that big where you could turn the No BS bike. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hubbard_28 Posted May 11, 2009 Report Share Posted May 11, 2009 They always admit that some people are capable of working the "No BS machine" without the bars, but they are few and far between the people who can do it smoothly and consistently, as I understand. Having ridden the no BS bke more than once, I can attest that you cannot turn it. "They" (an instructor) told me that another instructor was able to make it turn gradually in a very wide open space but it was useless from a cornering a motorcycle perspective. There are no corners on any track that are that big where you could turn the No BS bike. OK, so just the one. I agree that there is no corner on a track that can be taken at speed. I was able to get my bike to competently corner at approx 15-20 mph around a "bend" I guess you could call it. I had my hands on the tank, close to the bars, and I assure you the bike was able to turn with leaning and peg pressure. I'll try it again later in the week if the parking lot is cleared, and give you my results. I have a camera that I'll mount, if I can get it to work. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hotfoot Posted May 11, 2009 Report Share Posted May 11, 2009 They always admit that some people are capable of working the "No BS machine" without the bars, but they are few and far between the people who can do it smoothly and consistently, as I understand. Having ridden the no BS bke more than once, I can attest that you cannot turn it. "They" (an instructor) told me that another instructor was able to make it turn gradually in a very wide open space but it was useless from a cornering a motorcycle perspective. There are no corners on any track that are that big where you could turn the No BS bike. OK, so just the one. I agree that there is no corner on a track that can be taken at speed. I was able to get my bike to competently corner at approx 15-20 mph around a "bend" I guess you could call it. I had my hands on the tank, close to the bars, and I assure you the bike was able to turn with leaning and peg pressure. I'll try it again later in the week if the parking lot is cleared, and give you my results. I have a camera that I'll mount, if I can get it to work. Just another variable to consider, it seems that it would be a LOT tougher to force the bike to lean with body weight at higher speeds. We know that the bike is designed such that when it is leaned over the front wheel will then turn into the lean (becuase of the trail) and balance it. It's possible to lean the bike at slow speeds by throwing your body weight over, but at high speeds I think you would have to use counter steering to force the lean. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stuman Posted May 11, 2009 Report Share Posted May 11, 2009 No question you can get a bike to turn without using the bars. I can coast downhill at a pretty good speed and change lanes and even go around some corners riding no hands. Is this an effective way to steer a motorcycle? I think not. Are we really going to beat this dead horse again? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hubbard_28 Posted May 11, 2009 Report Share Posted May 11, 2009 Just another variable to consider, it seems that it would be a LOT tougher to force the bike to lean with body weight at higher speeds. We know that the bike is designed such that when it is leaned over the front wheel will then turn into the lean (becuase of the trail) and balance it. It's possible to lean the bike at slow speeds by throwing your body weight over, but at high speeds I think you would have to use counter steering to force the lean. That part I wouldn't know. I was getting the bike no faster than 30 mph, and stick it into neutral, so there is surely some deceleration. And sorry Stu. I didn't know this was a previous conversation. It has sparked some interest in a couple riders, so I wouldn't think starting this discussion for the few of us who didn't participate in the earlier post would be harmful. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaybird180 Posted May 11, 2009 Report Share Posted May 11, 2009 I agree with Hubbard. It is an interesting topic and new from our vantage point. So I'll chip in my $2.00 with these two things: Hopefully I can explain this in a way that makes sense (at least it does in my head). Countersteering induces a instability that forces the bike to roll in the direction opposite the input- The Lean. The trail, as Hotfoot mentioned causes the front wheel, in an attempt to maintain stability, to turn inward thereby turning the motorcycle. I recall as a kid riding my 10 speed bicycle with no hands pedaling and turning with force applied in the direction I wanted to go. Of course, this skill didn't help much when I boarded a 300-some-odd-pound hunk of metal with a roaring powerplant between my legs, but it did rear it's head from time to time. I think we all struggle with it every once in awhile. Hotfoot, where's that RC motorcycle experiment??? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stuman Posted May 11, 2009 Report Share Posted May 11, 2009 And sorry Stu. I didn't know this was a previous conversation. It has sparked some interest in a couple riders, so I wouldn't think starting this discussion for the few of us who didn't participate in the earlier post would be harmful. No need to apologize, I was just being a wise a__ with my dead horse comment. I need to learn to use more although a quick search would turn up a few threads on the subject I'm sure... http://forums.superbikeschool.com/index.ph...pic=231&hl= Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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