A Kindof Important Qurstion On Crashing

[nydude2000]

Well I have kind of an important question to ask…mainly for the really advanced track riders and racers out there…It has to do with crashing…

 

Do you think that at some point as you are trying to get better that you HAVE to crash??...in pushing the envelope...as 'you do with every sport

 

 

Or asked another way:

 

How many of the advanced track riders and racers out there HAVE NOT CRASHED???

 

 

 

 

steve

[GregGorman]

You know, I was just going to post something on this.

 

After a 4 year break, last year July 27th-28th, I started racing again. I stopped waiting until I got in shape and lost weight and just did it. At 6' tall and 230lbs my first races were 7 seconds a lap slower than AMA racers like Robertino Pietri, Santiago Villa, and Barret Long. This last weekend, my best time was 2.5 seconds slower than the best of the event. Even better, I was consistently running close to my best time. I still weigh 230lbs.

 

In the last year, I've had several close calls and only one crash. I can't really call it a crash, the bike never hit the ground, had no damage to it, and I finished 7th in the race - there's another post about that Daytona experience.

 

After several thousand track miles this year between racing and coaching I say no, you don't have to crash exploring the limit.

[nydude2000]

You know, I was just going to post something on this.

 

After a 4 year break, last year July 27th-28th, I started racing again. I stopped waiting until I got in shape and lost weight and just did it. At 6' tall and 230lbs my first races were 7 seconds a lap slower than AMA racers like Robertino Pietri, Santiago Villa, and Barret Long. This last weekend, my best time was 2.5 seconds slower than the best of the event. Even better, I was consistently running close to my best time. I still weigh 230lbs.

 

In the last year, I've had several close calls and only one crash. I can't really call it a crash, the bike never hit the ground, had no damage to it, and I finished 7th in the race - there's another post about that Daytona experience.

 

After several thousand track miles this year between racing and coaching I say no, you don't have to crash exploring the limit.

 

Greg

 

Thanks ALOT for the comeback...hearing about your experience and accomplishments WITHOUT crashing...is very reassuring. Very recently I have been having this internal debate now of whether at my age I really want to be doing this…maybe I should be taking up golf or something But I really do love doing it!

 

But it sounds like you are definitely pushing the limit..and still staying within yourself…now if i go forward I guess I have to figure out how to do that…I don't think i will be happy just "tootoling" around the track...

 

Oh…and congrats on what seem like some awesome track work

 

 

 

Steve

[fossilfuel]

Steve,

I haven't looked at your profile so I don't know your age. I started riding sport bikes at 50. I am now 54 and I am doing track days and WERA races. I once tried tossing around in my brain the risk and reward of riding. The rewards are many. I have attained every goal I set for myself in riding. I am setting new goals now and I am in the best shape of my life. So, for me, the reward has greatly out weighed the risk.

If you want to keep from crashing there are three drills you can work on....Throttle control, throttle control and throttle control.. .

I wrote sometime back about going to my first two Keith Code schools and being so overwhelmed by the experience that coach's lips were moving but I couldn't hear what he was saying. It was like ok, ok, when do we get back on the track? When I had a chance to sit back and synthesize the experience and really put together the lessons in my mind, I understood. I got it! I took the track I rode the most and visualized what I would do in the approach, apex, and exit of every corner and every straight. I would visualize where I shift, how I pull in the brake lever, my reference points, and seat position. Now, the lessons I learned are second nature. I don't fear what might happen. I work on what I want to happen and use the skills I learned to get me there.

This is a great sport with so many great people. I hope you decide this is something you want to continue.

[Kevin Kane]

Steve;

I don't qualify as an advanced rider but to follow on Fossil's post, I too started Sportbike/track riding when I turned 50. I had ridden vintage Triumphs before but found contemporary sport bikes and track riding were an alluring combination that was too big to ignore.

 

I have crashed three times since making the switch and up until the first one became increasingly preoccupied with the idea of crashing much like your post implies. Crashing set my confidence back enormously each time even though I knew why I crashed in all three cases. Crashing simply sucks and you should do all that you can to stay focused on applying all of your training and put the thought about crashing out of your mind. If it happens, it happens but worrying about in in my case only contributed to its realization. YRMV.

 

Kevin

[nydude2000]

Hey Fossil and Kevin

 

Thanks guys for the comeback. Fossil you know you are my hero ...lol..we are about the same age...and what you are doing is awesome....thanks for your POV and keep us up to date with your racing exploits

 

There is no question that CSS has kept me alive on the track!!!....I realized when I first started this track thing that i needed something to guide me or i was going to die...and CSS has been it....Having those set of skills to fall back on has been awesome

 

Kevin...seems like I have gotten to know you from all your posts and like Fossil value your thoughts...its not that I was obsessed with the idea of crashing...but recent events have brought that into focus...I guess ultimately what is the goal out on the track...for everybody it seems to be: GO FASTER...and it is...everything we do and learn etc...is to go faster...so how do you go faster and not crash...seems like Greg knows how...maybe its not to make it the ultimate goal but just a byproduct of learning to ride "perfectly".... There is an analogy i think: I took up snowboarding pretty late in life too..lol...and the feeling of carving down the mountain is just amazing...very similar to that feeling of going around those turns on the track when everything just feels right...but damn as I got better = faster down the slope,,,,and anyone who snowboards knows this...that dam downhill side edge..when it catches...crapola...it is a hard painful fall...so I just stopped trying to go down the slope faster and just worked on the neat part..carving down

 

 

I have to admit I do love the sport

[fossilfuel]

I like your analogy about snowboarding. I also took up snowboarding and have caught the down hill edge. They call this a "garage sale"! I get up thinking I am blind and there's snow inside my goggles. But what is interesting about this analogy is that it parallels so many things in life that we all need to have "feel" for.

When I was learning how to snowboard, I could have had a million instructors telling me what I should do and how to do it but they can't do it for you. I know I fell a hundred times in 4 days but finally it registered and I got the "feel". My brain and body got ther act in sinc and away I went.

To me this sport is no different. You can have great coaches to give you the tools but you have to discover the "feel". I can't tell you how great it would be to have a simulator to understand what the AMA, WSB, or MotoGP guys "feel". There is no way around it, you have to do it yourself.

 

P.S. Hey Keith, how about a riding simulator as your next training aid!

[nydude2000]

I like your analogy about snowboarding. I also took up snowboarding and have caught the down hill edge. They call this a "garage sale"! I get up thinking I am blind and there's snow inside my goggles. But what is interesting about this analogy is that it parallels so many things in life that we all need to have "feel" for.

When I was learning how to snowboard, I could have had a million instructors telling me what I should do and how to do it but they can't do it for you. I know I fell a hundred times in 4 days but finally it registered and I got the "feel". My brain and body got ther act in sinc and away I went.

To me this sport is no different. You can have great coaches to give you the tools but you have to discover the "feel". I can't tell you how great it would be to have a simulator to understand what the AMA, WSB, or MotoGP guys "feel". There is no way around it, you have to do it yourself.

 

P.S. Hey Keith, how about a riding simulator as your next training aid!

 

WOW Fossil...its like we are kindred spirts lol....you are so right about getting the feel...and no amount of coaching can make it happen...it can help...and it was painful on the snowboard but when you do get it ...it is so great...but it is different with the motorcycle...crashing ...well it just isn't a good option to get it right...got to figure how to get "THERE" and get the "feel" another way? And what makes matters worse for me is i am so visual in how i learn...if i can't "see" it in my mind...it won't happen...I know I have frustrated more than one CSS coach cause of that lol....

And which one wins?? Carving down a slop with perfect snow in perfect rhythym or...going around a great track with a great bike in perfect form...hummm....I think the bike wins....I know I am not there yet but everyonce in awhile on the bike I get a glimpse of that feeling...and it is so sweet ...and i know keith would like this..cause it is so ZEN...lol

[Fajita Dave]

I haven't read all of the posts on here so something similar might have been said. Also I'm not an advanced rider on a sportbike yet but I guess I can say I am in the motocross world.

 

Even though off-road and on-road are almost two completely different things I noticed the feel of the tires sliding is almost the same. The biggest thing I noticed is every single time I've fallen off-road because of a slide I NEVER learned what the traction limit was because I went straight past it. Every time I kept the front or rear tire sliding and maintained control I knew EXACTLY where the traction limit was and didn't fall. Basically if you can get to the point where you can feel the tires sliding and keep it in that band of traction without falling you learned a lot more then if you just went into a corner, lost the front end, and fell.

 

You don't need to wreck to find the limit of the motorcycle. You will need to be extremely smooth to find and ride that edge before the tires let go so I guess you can say you'll be "close" to crashing.

 

I don't think finding the traction limits of the tires/bike has a very big factor in running fast lap times though. I think braking points, apexes, throttle on points, and throttle control have a much bigger impact on turning out fast lap times.

[spthomas]

Greg

 

Thanks ALOT for the comeback...hearing about your experience and accomplishments WITHOUT crashing...is very reassuring. Very recently I have been having this internal debate now of whether at my age I really want to be doing this…maybe I should be taking up golf or something But I really do love doing it!

I started on my sportbike when I was 49, much earlier than the other guys.

 

I think you can do it without crashing although I have crashed once, but that was because (I think) I inadvertently hit the kill switch and got distracted in a turn with that "what the h*" feeling. I just had a track day Sunday and it was so much fun, as my riding is progressing and it was the most beautiful day (77, sunny, slight breeze).

 

I think that if you love doing something, you will be good at it.

[Darren sweetman]

I don't think that crashing is an essential element to going faster, it sometimes happens but normally due to rider error than simply leaning it until it lets go.

If you look at Valentino Rossi, I believe that he went for several seasons without crashing in practice or the races. I may be wrong on this and I haven't researched it but I remember this from somewhere. Therefore I think that answers your question. No you don't have to.

[nydude2000]

Well I appreciate everyone's input and it has helped a lot I think. It probably isn't too much of a surprise that , yes I did very recently have a very bad highside crash and I think got away with my life! = no serious injuries…there were a lot of reasons that contributed (and all stupid) but basically it went exactly as Dave said in his post…coming out of a turn..went right past the limit..front end gone… have know idea why…crashed and I learned absolutely nothing except those crashes hurt A LOT!

 

I think Dave kind of hit it though…you have to understand that point of traction/non traction and really know it! I think, Kiwi that is why Rossi hasn't crashed and can ride on the edge always…he knows exactly where and what that limit is. And I bet that probably is why Greg in his first post is doing some amazing racing stuff and still not crashing. Most of us mortals have no idea. And to be honest I still don't.

 

So if you continue to ride seems like there are two solutions (if we say crashing is not an option) #1 Stay far away from that point and basically you will always be safe (baring stupid stuff) but probably never really achieve what you can; and this is where you probably should be until you have really perfected your riding (as CSS says ride 75%)…but at some point you are going to want to go faster and then -----> #2 some how try and learn where that limit is and what it feels like without going over. Maybe Dave's idea of motocross might be a neat way of getting that feel…

[Hotfoot]

Well I appreciate everyone's input and it has helped a lot I think. It probably isn't too much of a surprise that , yes I did very recently have a very bad highside crash and I think got away with my life! = no serious injuries…there were a lot of reasons that contributed (and all stupid) but basically it went exactly as Dave said in his post…coming out of a turn..went right past the limit..front end gone… have know idea why…crashed and I learned absolutely nothing except those crashes hurt A LOT!

 

I think Dave kind of hit it though…you have to understand that point of traction/non traction and really know it! I think, Kiwi that is why Rossi hasn't crashed and can ride on the edge always…he knows exactly where and what that limit is. And I bet that probably is why Greg in his first post is doing some amazing racing stuff and still not crashing. Most of us mortals have no idea. And to be honest I still don't.

 

So if you continue to ride seems like there are two solutions (if we say crashing is not an option) #1 Stay far away from that point and basically you will always be safe (baring stupid stuff) but probably never really achieve what you can; and this is where you probably should be until you have really perfected your riding (as CSS says ride 75%)…but at some point you are going to want to go faster and then -----> #2 some how try and learn where that limit is and what it feels like without going over. Maybe Dave's idea of motocross might be a neat way of getting that feel…

 

Since you brought up the motocross idea, another idea is to try racing a smaller, slower bike - I made some really good progress on testing limits by doing some racing on a YSR50. You get to explore traction and handling limits, but at speeds that are much less intimidating, and track time is much cheaper.

 

I am bit slow to respond to your original question about crashing, but here you go: I decided to get back on a sportbike a little over two years ago, and decided I wanted to get fast. I have attended a number of schools and PLENTY of track days, and advanced from slow-and-scared in the street group to confident in the Expert group, and I've started racing. Zero crashes. I think, along the lines of what you say above, that if you keep your head (no red mist) and pay attention to what you are doing, approaching the limits gradually, you can certainly get faster without crashing. Training helps more than anything, of course; it's a lot quicker and less painful than trial and error!

[Fajita Dave]

Since you brought up the motocross idea, another idea is to try racing a smaller, slower bike - I made some really good progress on testing limits by doing some racing on a YSR50. You get to explore traction and handling limits, but at speeds that are much less intimidating, and track time is much cheaper.

 

I am bit slow to respond to your original question about crashing, but here you go: I decided to get back on a sportbike a little over two years ago, and decided I wanted to get fast. I have attended a number of schools and PLENTY of track days, and advanced from slow-and-scared in the street group to confident in the Expert group, and I've started racing. Zero crashes. I think, along the lines of what you say above, that if you keep your head (no red mist) and pay attention to what you are doing, approaching the limits gradually, you can certainly get faster without crashing. Training helps more than anything, of course; it's a lot quicker and less painful than trial and error!

 

I like Hotfoots idea about the YSR50 more. The terrain in motocross is so inconsistent but forgiving. So I think practicing on the street with a slow bike on a tight track would be a faster way to learn. I haven't had a chance to push traction limits on the sportbike yet but from what I've heard the "bands of traction" that Keith calls them is much more narrow and less forgiving. Which makes sense... a lot of off-road tires gain some grip as they slide (unless its very hard pack) where as street tires lose all grip when they slide past a certain point.

 

When I do get to the track I'm kind of worried that I might try to push the tires to hard for short periods of time instead of being smooth like a sportbike requires. I'm still comfortable sliding my motocross bike as far as I want to and that point is always way past the limits that I'll have on the street. So street practice will make for better street riding.

[GregGorman]

How to get faster? Here's my ideas:

 

Invest in yourself, not the bike. Here's a picture of #86 Lars Remsen and me battling for 4th place here. In this picture, I'm actually trying to pass him on the outside (I never did make it around.) I'm going faster than Lars but look at the ground clearance issues Lars is having versus me. photo by Lisa Theobald.

The difference is from a quicker turn-in, a different turnpoint, different body position and other things that combine to make the difference. How close to the edge do you want to be?

 

It's all practice. Until I'm getting paid to go fast, it's all practice. In other words, I don't try to force it.

 

I pay attention to the people passing me, where they're passing me and where they're gaining time on me in the corner. Prior to the next session I think about what drill from the school I need to work on to make that happen. For instance, if someone is pulling away from me at the exit of a corner I may need to work on the 3-step or the hook turn or the pickup drill. I then work on that drill.

 

I ride just at the edge of my comfort zone. In a specific turn I'll push that zone, either on entry, mid-corner, or on exit, by braking later/earlier, braking harder/less, changing my turnpoint, my mid-cornerpoint, etc... 1 turn, 1 session. It's all practice. I either do this in the turn that makes the most difference to the fastest part of the track or that I'm just not comfortable in.

 

For me, this does few things:

1. It pushes my comfort zone in one known area in a specific way.

2. It makes the rest of the track easier because my comfort zone is being pushed a little.

3. It makes my times more consistent.

 

A lot of times what I find is that I start working on whatever I'm working on in every corner. This makes me work and I'm pretty tired after the session. Next session, I'll really work on getting the sames laptimes but getting relaxed.

 

As for sliding, I've come to the conclusion that finding the traction band is a bad thing. What I mean by that is doing something and waiting to see if the bike slides and trying to feel when it does is a reverse way of riding. It's making the bike tell you what to think. You're riding around a corner going, "I don't know." I don't think that's so good - it depends almost entirely on reaction time.

 

What I think is good is going, "I'm going to make the bike slide here." Intentionally, knowingly, sliding the bike. This way you plan it. You get your body set, you do the pickup drill. This depends mostly on planning and execution and much less on reaction time.

[Hotfoot]

How to get faster? Here's my ideas:

 

Invest in yourself, not the bike. Here's a picture of #86 Lars Remsen and me battling for 4th place here. In this picture, I'm actually trying to pass him on the outside (I never did make it around.) I'm going faster than Lars but look at the ground clearance issues Lars is having versus me. photo by Lisa Theobald.

The difference is from a quicker turn-in, a different turnpoint, different body position and other things that combine to make the difference. How close to the edge do you want to be?

 

It's all practice. Until I'm getting paid to go fast, it's all practice. In other words, I don't try to force it.

 

I pay attention to the people passing me, where they're passing me and where they're gaining time on me in the corner. Prior to the next session I think about what drill from the school I need to work on to make that happen. For instance, if someone is pulling away from me at the exit of a corner I may need to work on the 3-step or the hook turn or the pickup drill. I then work on that drill.

 

I ride just at the edge of my comfort zone. In a specific turn I'll push that zone, either on entry, mid-corner, or on exit, by braking later/earlier, braking harder/less, changing my turnpoint, my mid-cornerpoint, etc... 1 turn, 1 session. It's all practice. I either do this in the turn that makes the most difference to the fastest part of the track or that I'm just not comfortable in.

 

For me, this does few things:

1. It pushes my comfort zone in one known area in a specific way.

2. It makes the rest of the track easier because my comfort zone is being pushed a little.

3. It makes my times more consistent.

 

A lot of times what I find is that I start working on whatever I'm working on in every corner. This makes me work and I'm pretty tired after the session. Next session, I'll really work on getting the sames laptimes but getting relaxed.

 

As for sliding, I've come to the conclusion that finding the traction band is a bad thing. What I mean by that is doing something and waiting to see if the bike slides and trying to feel when it does is a reverse way of riding. It's making the bike tell you what to think. You're riding around a corner going, "I don't know." I don't think that's so good - it depends almost entirely on reaction time.

 

What I think is good is going, "I'm going to make the bike slide here." Intentionally, knowingly, sliding the bike. This way you plan it. You get your body set, you do the pickup drill. This depends mostly on planning and execution and much less on reaction time.

[Hotfoot]

How to get faster? Here's my ideas:

 

Invest in yourself, not the bike. Here's a picture of #86 Lars Remsen and me battling for 4th place here. In this picture, I'm actually trying to pass him on the outside (I never did make it around.) I'm going faster than Lars but look at the ground clearance issues Lars is having versus me. photo by Lisa Theobald.

The difference is from a quicker turn-in, a different turnpoint, different body position and other things that combine to make the difference. How close to the edge do you want to be?

 

It's all practice. Until I'm getting paid to go fast, it's all practice. In other words, I don't try to force it.

 

I pay attention to the people passing me, where they're passing me and where they're gaining time on me in the corner. Prior to the next session I think about what drill from the school I need to work on to make that happen. For instance, if someone is pulling away from me at the exit of a corner I may need to work on the 3-step or the hook turn or the pickup drill. I then work on that drill.

 

I ride just at the edge of my comfort zone. In a specific turn I'll push that zone, either on entry, mid-corner, or on exit, by braking later/earlier, braking harder/less, changing my turnpoint, my mid-cornerpoint, etc... 1 turn, 1 session. It's all practice. I either do this in the turn that makes the most difference to the fastest part of the track or that I'm just not comfortable in.

 

For me, this does few things:

1. It pushes my comfort zone in one known area in a specific way.

2. It makes the rest of the track easier because my comfort zone is being pushed a little.

3. It makes my times more consistent.

 

A lot of times what I find is that I start working on whatever I'm working on in every corner. This makes me work and I'm pretty tired after the session. Next session, I'll really work on getting the sames laptimes but getting relaxed.

 

As for sliding, I've come to the conclusion that finding the traction band is a bad thing. What I mean by that is doing something and waiting to see if the bike slides and trying to feel when it does is a reverse way of riding. It's making the bike tell you what to think. You're riding around a corner going, "I don't know." I don't think that's so good - it depends almost entirely on reaction time.

 

What I think is good is going, "I'm going to make the bike slide here." Intentionally, knowingly, sliding the bike. This way you plan it. You get your body set, you do the pickup drill. This depends mostly on planning and execution and much less on reaction time.

 

WOW, this is a terrific post. You make some great points and the photo is VERY effective in driving them home! You just made me change my plan for my next pratice day!

[Fajita Dave]

I never though about whether I was intentially trying to slide or not. Riding motocross I never tried to slide the rear end around coming out of corners it was always just the result and I got comfortable learning how to control it. I can deffinitley see how trying to exicute a small slide that you want exiting a corner could make it much more comfortable and consistant. It would probably boost your confidence about the control you have over the bike instead of the bike controling you.

 

I'm sure sliding makes your lap times slower on a sportbike but its nice to know where those traction limits are without eating the pavement. Sliding at all will be the last thing I'll be trying to do when I get to the track. Having the right braking points, quick turn in points, and on throttle points will be my top priority while keeping everything as smooth as possible. Hopefully those first track days will be at the end of this month at VIR but financially I don't think its going to be a smart idea at the moment.

[GregGorman]

WOW, this is a terrific post. You make some great points and the photo is VERY effective in driving them home! You just made me change my plan for my next pratice day!

 

Cool. Glad to be of help. Let me know if it works for you.

 

 

I can deffinitley see how trying to exicute a small slide that you want exiting a corner could make it much more comfortable and consistant. It would probably boost your confidence about the control you have over the bike instead of the bike controling you.

 

Exactly, you controlling the bike. No, I don't recommend it until you really have other techniques at a high level of competency and know from study of those who do slide where the slide should be done, what lean angle, know how to and do the pickup drill, have very good throttle control.

[nydude2000]

How to get faster? Here's my ideas:

 

Invest in yourself, not the bike. Here's a picture of #86 Lars Remsen and me battling for 4th place here. In this picture, I'm actually trying to pass him on the outside (I never did make it around.) I'm going faster than Lars but look at the ground clearance issues Lars is having versus me. photo by Lisa Theobald.

The difference is from a quicker turn-in, a different turnpoint, different body position and other things that combine to make the difference. How close to the edge do you want to be?

 

It's all practice. Until I'm getting paid to go fast, it's all practice. In other words, I don't try to force it.

 

I pay attention to the people passing me, where they're passing me and where they're gaining time on me in the corner. Prior to the next session I think about what drill from the school I need to work on to make that happen. For instance, if someone is pulling away from me at the exit of a corner I may need to work on the 3-step or the hook turn or the pickup drill. I then work on that drill.

 

I ride just at the edge of my comfort zone. In a specific turn I'll push that zone, either on entry, mid-corner, or on exit, by braking later/earlier, braking harder/less, changing my turnpoint, my mid-cornerpoint, etc... 1 turn, 1 session. It's all practice. I either do this in the turn that makes the most difference to the fastest part of the track or that I'm just not comfortable in.

 

For me, this does few things:

1. It pushes my comfort zone in one known area in a specific way.

2. It makes the rest of the track easier because my comfort zone is being pushed a little.

3. It makes my times more consistent.

 

A lot of times what I find is that I start working on whatever I'm working on in every corner. This makes me work and I'm pretty tired after the session. Next session, I'll really work on getting the sames laptimes but getting relaxed.

 

As for sliding, I've come to the conclusion that finding the traction band is a bad thing. What I mean by that is doing something and waiting to see if the bike slides and trying to feel when it does is a reverse way of riding. It's making the bike tell you what to think. You're riding around a corner going, "I don't know." I don't think that's so good - it depends almost entirely on reaction time.

 

What I think is good is going, "I'm going to make the bike slide here." Intentionally, knowingly, sliding the bike. This way you plan it. You get your body set, you do the pickup drill. This depends mostly on planning and execution and much less on reaction time.

 

Hy Greg

 

I will just put in my.."what a great post" thanks

I look at that pic and what I see is one stressed out #86 and although can't see your face just looking at your BP you seem totally relaxed..which bike would i want to be on..hummm...not a hard choice...

I did a CSS Lvl 4 yesterday (first time back on a bike) and had alot of discussion with my coach. Interestingly he kind of said the same thing about going fast. He was racing trying to go faster and lap times were actually going down...was ready to quite and his buddy said just relax and have fun...doing that he had the second best lap time ever...

 

Dave as to Motocross helping with control...I remeber reading a review in ?MC racing mag on Rich Oliver's Mystery School..As I remember it..talked about how is mentor made him do motocross and he said he owed alot of his sucess to that...Quote from this school (this one designed pretty much for track riders)

"Learn to control a sliding motorcycle on the dirt

at a safe speed, then take all that you learn here

and apply it to whatever you ride or race."

 

Anyway kind of interesting...

 

Steve

[navymed9]

I kind of found this an interesting topic with some neat posts….Humbly I might but my two cents in….

 

I don't think crashing has to happen to push to improve…crashing happens…but hey you could get hit in the chest playing football and have a cardiac arrest …or ski off a mountain and get buried by an avalanche…stuff happens…..but I wouldn't anal-lyse over of it…

 

High side crashes probably happen for three reasons…1) you got taken out by some other stupid dude..2) you did something technically wrong…3) you did something stupid that caused you to do something technically wrong…sounds like you did #3 and #2….some good coaching could probably spot what it is…and..well..its corrected!

 

Low sides happen…I am not sure Greg that I would with intent push to find it…but I know some of my friends do that…the new Battleax BT-003s seem to loose traction but do so in an incredibly predictable way….and so they use them in the way you said…I have done it to some extend in the rain..since you are going at a slower speed…I like the idea of smaller bikes = slower speeds…

 

Going faster is the main goal but it shouldn't be the path..…if you TRY to go faster it usually doesn't happen (and you probably stand a higher chance of crashing). Kevin Schwantz said that he won, not by trying to go faster, but by riding perfectly…doing all the little things that make up riding as perfectly as possible..that sounds like a pretty good way to go...so Steve...stop the drama..get back on the bike and start working on riding perfectly (said with affection )

[fossilfuel]

Am I the only one who noticed that NavyDude is a Squid! This is great!

[GregGorman]

Yes, good ideas there NavyDude.

 

My previous post covered many ideas. Regarding sliding, it's about control. Control is start, change, stop. If the bike slides and you didn't initiate it, by definition, you're not controlling it. What I frequently struggle with and what I hear from other riders asking is, "How do I control slides?"

 

In my own search for answers I realized I was waiting for the bike to slide instead of initiating the slide. To initiate the slide, you have to first intend to slide the bike. You have to know where, when, and why.

 

So to control sliding, to be at some little cause over it, I realized I needed to change my ideas.

[Bullet]

Yes, good ideas there NavyDude.

 

My previous post covered many ideas. Regarding sliding, it's about control. Control is start, change, stop. If the bike slides and you didn't initiate it, by definition, you're not controlling it. What I frequently struggle with and what I hear from other riders asking is, "How do I control slides?"

 

In my own search for answers I realized I was waiting for the bike to slide instead of initiating the slide. To initiate the slide, you have to first intend to slide the bike. You have to know where, when, and why.

 

So to control sliding, to be at some little cause over it, I realized I needed to change my ideas.

 

Interesting point there Greg, did you find that when you started to initate them to undertstand what would then happen, now you can almost predict when they'll happen?

 

Bullet

 

p.s. your post on the last page, with the picture was awsome by the way!

[fossilfuel]

Am I the only one who noticed that NavyDude is a Squid! This is great!

 

"Navy" = "Squid" ??? I guess not.