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Front Grip - How To Increase Or Loose It?


isolter
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I've been wondering the front tyre grip for a while. According to the TOTW-books there should be appx 60R/40F weight balance when cornering, which is to say slight throttle opening as per "Throttle Rule". From theoretical and mechanical point of view that makes sense as Keith writes...

 

However, after several discussions at the pit with the "fast" guys they are working _against_ to 60/40 -rule. They tend to load the front as much as possible e.g trail braking, body movement forward etc in order to load the front and make it "bite" better.

 

This is confusing me. I've lost the front twice (not with trail braking) and I've tried to follow Keith's rules but this conversation with faster guys is really bothering me. They do exactly opposite and with good results (fast lap times, no crashes). I try to follow TOTW and I crash; that's confusing...

 

What do you think? Any opinions?

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I've been wondering the front tyre grip for a while. According to the TOTW-books there should be appx 60R/40F weight balance when cornering, which is to say slight throttle opening as per "Throttle Rule". From theoretical and mechanical point of view that makes sense as Keith writes...

 

However, after several discussions at the pit with the "fast" guys they are working _against_ to 60/40 -rule. They tend to load the front as much as possible e.g trail braking, body movement forward etc in order to load the front and make it "bite" better.

 

This is confusing me. I've lost the front twice (not with trail braking) and I've tried to follow Keith's rules but this conversation with faster guys is really bothering me. They do exactly opposite and with good results (fast lap times, no crashes). I try to follow TOTW and I crash; that's confusing...

 

What do you think? Any opinions?

 

I think you may be misinterpretating Keiths words here. When does Keith suggest you should be getting back to 60/40, with the throttle rule? What are you as a rider typically doing before this time? In this time, where is more of the weight? Does being of the throttle move the weight to the front? Does trail braking add more or less weight to this?

 

I also wonder what bike you have, what setup, and what tyres and pressure you're running ? I suspect that the really fast boys have super sticky tyres?

 

Bullet

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I definitely don't have a lot of experience yet but from what I've seen it has a lot to do with tires and how you use them. If they are riding racing slicks or something like the Michelin Power One tires you need to ride them a bit harder to get them up to operating temperature. Once they are at operating temps you need to keep load on them just so the tires don't cool down. So the front tire is designed to handle the kind of load that trail braking puts on it and provides enough grip to do it. If you aren't a fast enough rider to get tires like that up to temp and keep them there then the tires are pretty much useless.

 

Keith wrote an excellent article on tires called "The Bands of Traction." It explains what I was trying to say a lot better too. http://forums.superbikeschool.com/index.php?showtopic=877

 

I don't have to much on-road riding experience yet myself so I can't help you with that part :P .

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I've been wondering the front tyre grip for a while. According to the TOTW-books there should be appx 60R/40F weight balance when cornering, which is to say slight throttle opening as per "Throttle Rule". From theoretical and mechanical point of view that makes sense as Keith writes...

 

However, after several discussions at the pit with the "fast" guys they are working _against_ to 60/40 -rule. They tend to load the front as much as possible e.g trail braking, body movement forward etc in order to load the front and make it "bite" better.

 

This is confusing me. I've lost the front twice (not with trail braking) and I've tried to follow Keith's rules but this conversation with faster guys is really bothering me. They do exactly opposite and with good results (fast lap times, no crashes). I try to follow TOTW and I crash; that's confusing...

 

What do you think? Any opinions?

 

I think you may be misinterpretating Keiths words here. When does Keith suggest you should be getting back to 60/40, with the throttle rule? What are you as a rider typically doing before this time? In this time, where is more of the weight? Does being of the throttle move the weight to the front? Does trail braking add more or less weight to this?

 

I also wonder what bike you have, what setup, and what tyres and pressure you're running ? I suspect that the really fast boys have super sticky tyres?

 

Bullet

 

This throws up a bit of confusion for me, I thought the principle was the same no matter whether the tyres were super sticky or sports tourers, unless of course you are refering to how the tyre performs before turn in, in which case then I agree the super sticky efforts will be able to withstand much higher forces during braking and decceleration, but I assume no matter what tyre your on after you have the bike steered you get on the throttle ASAP and achieve the 60-40 as described in the book?

 

Bobby

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I've been wondering the front tyre grip for a while. According to the TOTW-books there should be appx 60R/40F weight balance when cornering, which is to say slight throttle opening as per "Throttle Rule". From theoretical and mechanical point of view that makes sense as Keith writes...

 

However, after several discussions at the pit with the "fast" guys they are working _against_ to 60/40 -rule. They tend to load the front as much as possible e.g trail braking, body movement forward etc in order to load the front and make it "bite" better.

 

This is confusing me. I've lost the front twice (not with trail braking) and I've tried to follow Keith's rules but this conversation with faster guys is really bothering me. They do exactly opposite and with good results (fast lap times, no crashes). I try to follow TOTW and I crash; that's confusing...

 

What do you think? Any opinions?

 

I think you may be misinterpretating Keiths words here. When does Keith suggest you should be getting back to 60/40, with the throttle rule? What are you as a rider typically doing before this time? In this time, where is more of the weight? Does being of the throttle move the weight to the front? Does trail braking add more or less weight to this?

 

I also wonder what bike you have, what setup, and what tyres and pressure you're running ? I suspect that the really fast boys have super sticky tyres?

 

Bullet

 

I thought the principle was the same no matter whether the tyres were super sticky or sports tourers, unless of course you are refering to how the tyre performs before turn in, in which case then I agree the super sticky efforts will be able to withstand much higher forces during braking and decceleration, but I assume no matter what tyre your on after you have the bike steered you get on the throttle ASAP and achieve the 60-40 as described in the book?

 

Bobby

 

Exactly, it is....! The only difference in quicker riders and going much faster, is they brake for longer and deeper into the turn, and as you only come back to the throttle once you've finished braking, that period of coming back to the throttle is usually a little longer.

 

Make sense?

 

Bullet

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I've been wondering the front tyre grip for a while. According to the TOTW-books there should be appx 60R/40F weight balance when cornering, which is to say slight throttle opening as per "Throttle Rule". From theoretical and mechanical point of view that makes sense as Keith writes...

 

However, after several discussions at the pit with the "fast" guys they are working _against_ to 60/40 -rule. They tend to load the front as much as possible e.g trail braking, body movement forward etc in order to load the front and make it "bite" better.

 

This is confusing me. I've lost the front twice (not with trail braking) and I've tried to follow Keith's rules but this conversation with faster guys is really bothering me. They do exactly opposite and with good results (fast lap times, no crashes). I try to follow TOTW and I crash; that's confusing...

 

What do you think? Any opinions?

 

I think you may be misinterpretating Keiths words here. When does Keith suggest you should be getting back to 60/40, with the throttle rule? What are you as a rider typically doing before this time? In this time, where is more of the weight? Does being of the throttle move the weight to the front? Does trail braking add more or less weight to this?

 

I also wonder what bike you have, what setup, and what tyres and pressure you're running ? I suspect that the really fast boys have super sticky tyres?

 

Bullet

 

I thought the principle was the same no matter whether the tyres were super sticky or sports tourers, unless of course you are refering to how the tyre performs before turn in, in which case then I agree the super sticky efforts will be able to withstand much higher forces during braking and decceleration, but I assume no matter what tyre your on after you have the bike steered you get on the throttle ASAP and achieve the 60-40 as described in the book?

 

Bobby

 

Exactly, it is....! The only difference in quicker riders and going much faster, is they brake for longer and deeper into the turn, and as you only come back to the throttle once you've finished braking, that period of coming back to the throttle is usually a little longer.

 

Make sense?

 

Bullet

 

Okay, I'll bit the 'bullet' so-to-speak (LOL).

 

I have to admit that on one level your answer seems dead-on, but on another level, it doesn't quite sit well with me; and I'd humbly suggest that it's over-simplified.

 

I've heard it said that trying to make up time braking is a bad-idea. And one can see why if the newbie rider hears this, they abandon the other points of effective riding and think, "just get in deeper" and I'll go faster. I suppose this is the bravado that Valentino Rossi was talking about when comparing the GP style of riding to Superbike style.

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I've been wondering the front tyre grip for a while. According to the TOTW-books there should be appx 60R/40F weight balance when cornering, which is to say slight throttle opening as per "Throttle Rule". From theoretical and mechanical point of view that makes sense as Keith writes...

 

However, after several discussions at the pit with the "fast" guys they are working _against_ to 60/40 -rule. They tend to load the front as much as possible e.g trail braking, body movement forward etc in order to load the front and make it "bite" better.

 

This is confusing me. I've lost the front twice (not with trail braking) and I've tried to follow Keith's rules but this conversation with faster guys is really bothering me. They do exactly opposite and with good results (fast lap times, no crashes). I try to follow TOTW and I crash; that's confusing...

 

What do you think? Any opinions?

 

I think you may be misinterpretating Keiths words here. When does Keith suggest you should be getting back to 60/40, with the throttle rule? What are you as a rider typically doing before this time? In this time, where is more of the weight? Does being of the throttle move the weight to the front? Does trail braking add more or less weight to this?

 

I also wonder what bike you have, what setup, and what tyres and pressure you're running ? I suspect that the really fast boys have super sticky tyres?

 

Bullet

 

I thought the principle was the same no matter whether the tyres were super sticky or sports tourers, unless of course you are refering to how the tyre performs before turn in, in which case then I agree the super sticky efforts will be able to withstand much higher forces during braking and decceleration, but I assume no matter what tyre your on after you have the bike steered you get on the throttle ASAP and achieve the 60-40 as described in the book?

 

Bobby

 

Exactly, it is....! The only difference in quicker riders and going much faster, is they brake for longer and deeper into the turn, and as you only come back to the throttle once you've finished braking, that period of coming back to the throttle is usually a little longer.

 

Make sense?

 

Bullet

 

Okay, I'll bit the 'bullet' so-to-speak (LOL).

 

I have to admit that on one level your answer seems dead-on, but on another level, it doesn't quite sit well with me; and I'd humbly suggest that it's over-simplified.

 

I've heard it said that trying to make up time braking is a bad-idea. And one can see why if the newbie rider hears this, they abandon the other points of effective riding and think, "just get in deeper" and I'll go faster. I suppose this is the bravado that Valentino Rossi was talking about when comparing the GP style of riding to Superbike style.

 

 

It always happens to me this.. I try my dammedest to keep it simple... but it just never happens... :lol:

 

Am I over simplfying it.. Yeah, a bit. Trying to make up time on the brakes can indeed be a bad idea, but lets consider which part of the turn is most important? The start, or the exit? The answer of course is the exit, we need to get back to gas to start driving that bike as quickly as we can, so if we decide or Mid Corner speed is X, my question to you, is there time to be made up scrubbing speed off past the turn point getting to X, or just being off the brakes coasting into the turn to get to X? The answer to that is indeed yes, of course there is, hence why MotoGP riders, etc, do so.

 

Are there problems with doing this, hell yeah, your chances of a low side are massively increased, as what are we doing here? Are we loading the front a lot and asking it to handle turning forces and braking forces.

 

The most important thing is this, we still need to get back to gas as soon as we can, and back on it hard at the very earliest opporunity, however, as we all know, you never get back to it hard until after the Apex in most cases, and you can gain time by braking not neccesarily that much later, but just carrying more speed into the earlier part of the turn and for longer.

 

Now, does that make sense..? ;)

 

Bullet

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Am I over simplfying it.. Yeah, a bit. Trying to make up time on the brakes can indeed be a bad idea, but lets consider which part of the turn is most important? The start, or the exit? The answer of course is the exit, we need to get back to gas to start driving that bike as quickly as we can, so if we decide or Mid Corner speed is X, my question to you, is there time to be made up scrubbing speed off past the turn point getting to X, or just being off the brakes coasting into the turn to get to X? The answer to that is indeed yes, of course there is, hence why MotoGP riders, etc, do so.

 

Are there problems with doing this, hell yeah, your chances of a low side are massively increased, as what are we doing here? Are we loading the front a lot and asking it to handle turning forces and braking forces.

 

The most important thing is this, we still need to get back to gas as soon as we can, and back on it hard at the very earliest opporunity, however, as we all know, you never get back to it hard until after the Apex in most cases, and you can gain time by braking not neccesarily that much later, but just carrying more speed into the earlier part of the turn and for longer.

 

Now, does that make sense..? ;)

 

Bullet

 

Am I over simplfying it.. Yeah, a bit. Trying to make up time on the brakes can indeed be a bad idea, but lets consider which part of the turn is most important? The start, or the exit? The answer of course is the exit, we need to get back to gas to start driving that bike as quickly as we can…

 

Of course we can agree that this is dependent on the type of corner as there is no ‘one corner fits all’. :rolleyes:

 

The most important thing is this, we still need to get back to gas as soon as we can, and back on it hard at the very earliest opporunity, however, as we all know, you never get back to it hard until after the Apex in most cases, and you can gain time by braking not neccesarily that much later, but just carrying more speed into the earlier part of the turn and for longer.

 

Then why brake at all? As I understand, the sole purpose of the brake lever for the track rider is the setting of entry speed. For a given turn and the desired line through that turn the entry speed is a (relative) maximum value. So if one can carry more speed and hold the line, then THIS is the proper entry speed for that turn, that rider, on that bike, at that turn point, etc.

 

And your point here seems to make a strong argument for the value of getting the entry correct, which I agree with; booger the entry and there's NO WAY you can fix the exit (LOL).

 

 

… so if we decide or Mid Corner speed is X, my question to you, is there time to be made up scrubbing speed off past the turn point getting to X, or just being off the brakes coasting into the turn to get to X? The answer to that is indeed yes, of course there is, hence why MotoGP riders, etc, do so.

 

We’re dangerously close to that super long trailbraking thread (LOL), which BTW is still a very interesting, entertaining, and informative read, but I’m not even sure we even scratched the surface of the Terho’s question.

 

I’m the first to admit that without more information from him, I don’t have the talent or clairvoyance to be of any real value at troubleshooting.

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Then why brake at all? As I understand, the sole purpose of the brake lever for the track rider is the setting of entry speed. For a given turn and the desired line through that turn the entry speed is a (relative) maximum value. So if one can carry more speed and hold the line, then THIS is the proper entry speed for that turn, that rider, on that bike, at that turn point, etc.

 

And your point here seems to make a strong argument for the value of getting the entry correct, which I agree with; booger the entry and there's NO WAY you can fix the exit (LOL).

 

 

I'm not so sure about you, but approaching a turn at say 150mph plus, when I need to get around it maybe around 70mph, normally requires me to brake.. just a little.. :lol:

 

SO, my question to you Hubbard, (as I seem to be answering all the questions here.... LOL), is what is it that determine's what is the right line for a turn anyway...? I think you'll find the answer it TW2, page 18.....!

 

Bullet

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I think you may be misinterpretating Keiths words here. When does Keith suggest you should be getting back to 60/40, with the throttle rule? What are you as a rider typically doing before this time? In this time, where is more of the weight? Does being of the throttle move the weight to the front? Does trail braking add more or less weight to this?

 

I also wonder what bike you have, what setup, and what tyres and pressure you're running ? I suspect that the really fast boys have super sticky tyres?

 

Bullet

 

I think I got the point. When analyzing my loose of the front, I can find the following reasons: 1) wrong line; the cambered corner turned into flat and I was still leaning too much => lost the front grip. 2) lazy turn; I wasn't steering quick enough considering the speed I used which lead me out of the best line to bumpy surface and because of lazy turn I need to use much more lean so the front lost the grip. Actually neither of these cases were related to throttle.

 

On the other hand, couple of times I have cornered "very fast" related to my skills which actually scared me but remembering basic techniques I just flicked it into the corner and rolled on and boy, I made it despite of my fear. Great feeling indeed! :)

 

FYI: I run R6R, stock forks and shock (loaded Sag 30 mm F / 28 mm R) YEC Kit ECU with quickshifter, Pirelli Diablo Slick, pressures 1,95 bar F / 1,80 bar R (warm pressure). Been wondering whether it makes sense to update the forks with a Cartridge Kit (Ohlins?) with linear springs? The stock springs are progressive and the pre-tension is almost on hardest setting in order to have the Sag on right range... The stock works fine on normal circumstances but in case I make a mistake, would a better fork setup "save my ass" - literally speaking??

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I think you may be misinterpretating Keiths words here. When does Keith suggest you should be getting back to 60/40, with the throttle rule? What are you as a rider typically doing before this time? In this time, where is more of the weight? Does being of the throttle move the weight to the front? Does trail braking add more or less weight to this?

 

I also wonder what bike you have, what setup, and what tyres and pressure you're running ? I suspect that the really fast boys have super sticky tyres?

 

Bullet

 

I think I got the point. When analyzing my loose of the front, I can find the following reasons: 1) wrong line; the cambered corner turned into flat and I was still leaning too much => lost the front grip. 2) lazy turn; I wasn't steering quick enough considering the speed I used which lead me out of the best line to bumpy surface and because of lazy turn I need to use much more lean so the front lost the grip. Actually neither of these cases were related to throttle.

 

On the other hand, couple of times I have cornered "very fast" related to my skills which actually scared me but remembering basic techniques I just flicked it into the corner and rolled on and boy, I made it despite of my fear. Great feeling indeed! :)

 

FYI: I run R6R, stock forks and shock (loaded Sag 30 mm F / 28 mm R) YEC Kit ECU with quickshifter, Pirelli Diablo Slick, pressures 1,95 bar F / 1,80 bar R (warm pressure). Been wondering whether it makes sense to update the forks with a Cartridge Kit (Ohlins?) with linear springs? The stock springs are progressive and the pre-tension is almost on hardest setting in order to have the Sag on right range... The stock works fine on normal circumstances but in case I make a mistake, would a better fork setup "save my ass" - literally speaking??

 

You've probably got too much tyre compared to your forks, I'd suggest. Even WSS bikes don't have slicks on a 600. Have you tried putting a tie wrap around the front fork leg to measure how much travel your using? Additionally, the progressive fork springs aren't ideal for hard use, and you'd definitely be better with linear springs for you weight, and get the forks revalved.

 

Final question for you my friend, how much weight do you carry in your arms? A bit, a fair bit? quite a lot?

 

Bullet

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You've probably got too much tyre compared to your forks, I'd suggest. Even WSS bikes don't have slicks on a 600. Have you tried putting a tie wrap around the front fork leg to measure how much travel your using? Additionally, the progressive fork springs aren't ideal for hard use, and you'd definitely be better with linear springs for you weight, and get the forks revalved.

 

Final question for you my friend, how much weight do you carry in your arms? A bit, a fair bit? quite a lot?

 

Bullet

 

Hi! Thx for comments! I really like this board, this seems to be "alive" and relevant discussion going on...

 

The reason for slicks on my 600cc is they are cheaper than DOT-tyres at our market. Since I'm not racing the "official" Superstock -class, I'm allowed to use slicks as well. This is pure economic background for my hobby...

 

I have a tie wrap around fork and it shows there is 15-20 mm left of travel lenght, depending on track and other circumstances, pace I drive, other traffic on circuit and so on...

 

Regarding the weight balance on my arms, I try to load the clip-ons so little as possible, according to TOTW-lessons. Normally I manage pretty well with this, I crab the tank with my legs during hard braking and I try to take most of the upper body weight with stomach- and backmuscles. As mentioned, "normally" this works quite fine but when I'm getting tired I loose the control slightly and in the end of the session I have more load on arms, I've noticed. So the answer you my friend is: A bit in the beginning of session but a fair bit, sometimes even a lot at the end of the session.

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You've probably got too much tyre compared to your forks, I'd suggest. Even WSS bikes don't have slicks on a 600. Have you tried putting a tie wrap around the front fork leg to measure how much travel your using? Additionally, the progressive fork springs aren't ideal for hard use, and you'd definitely be better with linear springs for you weight, and get the forks revalved.

 

Final question for you my friend, how much weight do you carry in your arms? A bit, a fair bit? quite a lot?

 

Bullet

 

Hi! Thx for comments! I really like this board, this seems to be "alive" and relevant discussion going on...

 

The reason for slicks on my 600cc is they are cheaper than DOT-tyres at our market. Since I'm not racing the "official" Superstock -class, I'm allowed to use slicks as well. This is pure economic background for my hobby...

 

I have a tie wrap around fork and it shows there is 15-20 mm left of travel lenght, depending on track and other circumstances, pace I drive, other traffic on circuit and so on...

 

Regarding the weight balance on my arms, I try to load the clip-ons so little as possible, according to TOTW-lessons. Normally I manage pretty well with this, I crab the tank with my legs during hard braking and I try to take most of the upper body weight with stomach- and backmuscles. As mentioned, "normally" this works quite fine but when I'm getting tired I loose the control slightly and in the end of the session I have more load on arms, I've noticed. So the answer you my friend is: A bit in the beginning of session but a fair bit, sometimes even a lot at the end of the session.

 

You're welcome.

 

When you've crashed, was it at the begining, middle, or at the end of a session?

 

Bullet

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You're welcome.

 

When you've crashed, was it at the begining, middle, or at the end of a session?

 

Bullet

 

1st at the end of the session; guess I was getting tired and same time speeding up 'cause session was OK, going well otherwise

 

2nd just in the beginning; guess I was too confident and the "rhytm" of the track wasn't clear for me during the first laps (even it was a track I know well)

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You're welcome.

 

When you've crashed, was it at the begining, middle, or at the end of a session?

 

Bullet

 

1st at the end of the session; guess I was getting tired and same time speeding up 'cause session was OK, going well otherwise

 

2nd just in the beginning; guess I was too confident and the "rhytm" of the track wasn't clear for me during the first laps (even it was a track I know well)

 

You think it might be possible that you were leaning on the bars a lot, and maybe that may have contributed to your overwhelming the front tyre at all?

 

Bullet

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  • 2 weeks later...
You're welcome.

 

When you've crashed, was it at the begining, middle, or at the end of a session?

 

Bullet

 

1st at the end of the session; guess I was getting tired and same time speeding up 'cause session was OK, going well otherwise

 

2nd just in the beginning; guess I was too confident and the "rhytm" of the track wasn't clear for me during the first laps (even it was a track I know well)

 

You think it might be possible that you were leaning on the bars a lot, and maybe that may have contributed to your overwhelming the front tyre at all?

 

Bullet

 

This is an interesting point! I have to constantly remind myself to relax, I'm getting better but I could imagine that it would be easy to put some weight on the bars towards the end of the session when tiredness starts to kick in, its really amazing how much influence your body actually has over a small sports bike probably about 1/3 of the weight of the rider plus bike package is the rider, so you could lap all day using the same lines, same body position, same everything then near the end of the day when you begin to get tired start leaning on the bars a little, you have to think, how much more weight are you asking the front tyre to take? 30 lbs, 40 lbs, maybe even 50 lbs extra over the front end! I've heard of people lowsiding and they dont understand why, they will insist that they took the corner the same as usual and the front just went, could it be that they simply asked the front end to carry more weight through the turn that time round?

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could it be that they simply asked the front end to carry more weight through the turn that time round?

 

Most definitely, think about where that weight is going, straight through the bars and onto that front wheel. We all know too much, and voila, you're gone.

 

I saw a student do exactly this mid turn a while back not really going to fast, but he decided to do this mid turn, i.e. Hang off in the middle of the turn, and he did exactly this, more weight, inside bar, no throttle... result...? Crash! He wasn't even going that fast either!

 

So, so easy to do.

 

Bullet

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I think the principles are the same regardless of which tire you are using, but then again I've never used the stickiest tires available.

 

When you load the front, you are giving more traction to the front wheel, but you are also simultaneously demanding more traction from that wheel. So the "fast guys" may describe their sensations of loading the front to get more front traction, but they are not describing the reason for trail braking, they're only describing why the trail braking is possible - trail braking hugely increases traction demand at the front which is possible partly because the braking itself increases the traction available at the front. But all would agree I think that the 2nd half of the turn (or more) should be done on-throttle. So no one is suggesting that anyone should go around a whole turn on the brakes because it increases front traction, right?

 

Maybe you've hard the phrase "last on the brakes, first on the gas." But the thing is, being first on the gas is way more important than being last on the brakes, if you are talking about lap times. And trying too hard to be "last on the brakes" often gets in the way of being first on the gas. So you can see why, for all except the very top level or riders it may be of much more benefit to focus more on the getting on the gas sooner rather than pushing the braking.

 

And it may be possible to go faster by trail braking up to the middle of the turn, but - based on the common theme that seems to come out of that long trail braking thread you mentioned - only if you do it extremely well. Furthermore, by trail braking you will be spending a larger amount of time in a less stable off-throttle condition, where you are more likely to lose the front.

 

When you had these front end slides, where you on-throttle or off-throttle? Usually it happens when off-throttle. So if you are really looking to understand why you lost the front, I would really be looking at what you were doing with the throttle at the time. My only crash at the track involved losing the front end during heavy rain. I was off-throttle and I normally would have been on-throttle already by that point of the turn.

 

If you were supporting yourself on the inside bar due to being tired or not focused, and then ya started hitting bumps at the same time, ya could easily end up essentially introducing all kinds of inadvertent steering inputs, cos you'd end up pushing more and less on the bar as you hit the bumps and your weight on the bar bounced up and down and thus pushing the inside bar forward (which is a countersteer that will cause more lean angle). I've had the problem before, for me it just caused a lot of wiggling and swaying feeling, which reminded me of the mistake I was making.

 

Off-throttle tends toward front end slides, too much on-throttle tends toward rear end slides, somewhere in the middle, with slight steady throttle roll-on, is that perfect balance between front and rear traction, and to my mind the idea is to be in that range as long as possible for maximum cornering speed, but... that also has to be balanced against the advantages of later braking and a hard drive out of the corner and a shorter line.

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I think I got the point. When analyzing my loose of the front, I can find the following reasons: 1) wrong line; the cambered corner turned into flat and I was still leaning too much => lost the front grip. 2) lazy turn; I wasn't steering quick enough considering the speed I used which lead me out of the best line to bumpy surface and because of lazy turn I need to use much more lean so the front lost the grip. Actually neither of these cases were related to throttle.

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But don't ya think that your wrong line and lazy turn probably prevented you from being able to get on the throttle as soon as you should have?

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Then why brake at all? As I understand, the sole purpose of the brake lever for the track rider is the setting of entry speed. For a given turn and the desired line through that turn the entry speed is a (relative) maximum value. So if one can carry more speed and hold the line, then THIS is the proper entry speed for that turn, that rider, on that bike, at that turn point, etc.

 

And your point here seems to make a strong argument for the value of getting the entry correct, which I agree with; booger the entry and there's NO WAY you can fix the exit (LOL).

 

 

I'm not so sure about you, but approaching a turn at say 150mph plus, when I need to get around it maybe around 70mph, normally requires me to brake.. just a little.. :lol:

 

SO, my question to you Hubbard, (as I seem to be answering all the questions here.... LOL), is what is it that determine's what is the right line for a turn anyway...? I think you'll find the answer it TW2, page 18.....!

 

Bullet

 

That's insulting. I answer the questions mostly by what I've seen, tried, and experienced. It just so happens that TOTW is where I've learned a lot, and it's by the toilet (please refer to my comment in the "track addict" post, I wasn't lying), and I just ran 8 miles, so I'm not getting up to get it. Thoroughly insulted.

Here's what I'm thinking. Your friends are wrong and/or have not had training (again, just my thought), and that's why they're explaining it wrong, or just don't know how to explain it correctly. I have a friend who is FAST, and after reading TOTW 1 and 2, he was blown away. He was told by friends how to do what, and all the stuff that he did to make him better was in the books. It could very well be, and I'd bet on it, that they have no idea why they're going so fast, and what they're actually doing.

If they're telling you that they load up the front through a turn WHILE BRAKING, they're one of two things: Wrong or lucky. Take some time on the next trackday and listen to them in a corner. Watch their front. Watch the gas/brake thing that pops up in MotoGP every once in a while. Every tire has its limit, and if they were at full lean and braking going into the corner at the "fast guy" pace, they'd surpass that limit more often than not.

More than a couple of us here have lowsided, and I've ridden a full day on a track not being able to find the right line and speed (I was going too fast) through a corner, and let me tell you; I got off the bike after every session and looked at my tire and shaking my head because it was CHEWED, and I don't know to this day how I didn't go down.

You can be coming off the brakes while going into the corner (slowly), but the back tire steers the bike through a corner, the larger contact patch is in the back, and they'll be getting pushed into the bars making getting proper BP hard and frustrating. None of this would make a person faster.

Remembering the 40/60 rule is what will make you better into and through the corner. It's safer and the correct thing to do.

Could the reason you've wrecked be because you're listening to your friends, or were you trying to follow 40/60? While applying the 40/60 rule, I don't even think it would be possible to lowside.

And I'm still offended.

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Then why brake at all? As I understand, the sole purpose of the brake lever for the track rider is the setting of entry speed. For a given turn and the desired line through that turn the entry speed is a (relative) maximum value. So if one can carry more speed and hold the line, then THIS is the proper entry speed for that turn, that rider, on that bike, at that turn point, etc.

 

And your point here seems to make a strong argument for the value of getting the entry correct, which I agree with; booger the entry and there's NO WAY you can fix the exit (LOL).

 

 

I'm not so sure about you, but approaching a turn at say 150mph plus, when I need to get around it maybe around 70mph, normally requires me to brake.. just a little.. :lol:

 

SO, my question to you Hubbard, (as I seem to be answering all the questions here.... LOL), is what is it that determine's what is the right line for a turn anyway...? I think you'll find the answer it TW2, page 18.....!

 

Bullet

 

That's insulting. I answer the questions mostly by what I've seen, tried, and experienced. It just so happens that TOTW is where I've learned a lot, and it's by the toilet (please refer to my comment in the "track addict" post, I wasn't lying), and I just ran 8 miles, so I'm not getting up to get it. Thoroughly insulted.

Here's what I'm thinking. Your friends are wrong and/or have not had training (again, just my thought), and that's why they're explaining it wrong, or just don't know how to explain it correctly. I have a friend who is FAST, and after reading TOTW 1 and 2, he was blown away. He was told by friends how to do what, and all the stuff that he did to make him better was in the books. It could very well be, and I'd bet on it, that they have no idea why they're going so fast, and what they're actually doing.

If they're telling you that they load up the front through a turn WHILE BRAKING, they're one of two things: Wrong or lucky. Take some time on the next trackday and listen to them in a corner. Watch their front. Watch the gas/brake thing that pops up in MotoGP every once in a while. Every tire has its limit, and if they were at full lean and braking going into the corner at the "fast guy" pace, they'd surpass that limit more often than not.

More than a couple of us here have lowsided, and I've ridden a full day on a track not being able to find the right line and speed (I was going too fast) through a corner, and let me tell you; I got off the bike after every session and looked at my tire and shaking my head because it was CHEWED, and I don't know to this day how I didn't go down.

You can be coming off the brakes while going into the corner (slowly), but the back tire steers the bike through a corner, the larger contact patch is in the back, and they'll be getting pushed into the bars making getting proper BP hard and frustrating. None of this would make a person faster.

Remembering the 40/60 rule is what will make you better into and through the corner. It's safer and the correct thing to do.

Could the reason you've wrecked be because you're listening to your friends, or were you trying to follow 40/60? While applying the 40/60 rule, I don't even think it would be possible to lowside.

And I'm still offended.

 

Wow, that bit of banter seems to have gone awry somewhere....! Desperately sorry if you're offended my friend, I really I am, but we're clearly at some level of cross purposes here for certain.

 

OK, how to put this back on the straight and narrow....? Well, what I was trying to get you to understand is that the correct line is not actually defined by brakes, entry speed, or 60/40, it's actually definied entirely by throttle control. 60/40 is a consqequence of good throttle control and there are other benefits for sure. The reality of riding a bike is that we do not come immediately back to throttle in the early part of the turn, the first part of a turn is typically dictated by a person's ability to able to turn the bike as well as other factors, and regardless of whether you trail brake or not, you're still not in 60/40, so a low side is still possible whether your on the brakes or not, certainly in the wet its very real.

 

So whilst many people would and should come of the brakes/gas in a straight line before you turn, there is an opportunity to brake past this point whilst turning the bike, and of a consequence you can definitely carry more speed upto the point where you can get back to the correct throttle control. Do i reccomend it to my students whilst I'm coaching at CSS? No, Would I suggest it's a good thing for most riders wanting to improve? Definitely not? But the fact of that matter is that if you race, and push hard and want to win, it's a neccesity as their is 1/10's of seconds (many meters to be made). Sure it's a fine balance, though it's normally not the loading of the tyre where the issues happen, it's when the pressure of the brakes are released and suspension extends again that normally the problems arise.

 

One of the benefits you get of being a coach with CSS is not only the fact that you have access to some of the most wonderful information in the world, but probably most importantly, you're part of an incredible bunch of people that have all levels of ability, from top level racing, through club racing, and some don't even race at all. Whats great though, is that we often debate and talk about technolgy, techniques, how to improve etc, all the time, and we experiement and looks for improvements in tech and drills all the time. This drives back into the programme and makes it evolve to what it is today. I've no doubt it will make it evolve further in the future as well.

 

Once again man, sorry if I offended, part of my role here is to make students think about their riding, rather than just telling people, that can be questions, sending you to read tech, etc, etc. It stimulates thought and debate which is great, it creates open thought which we definitely want, but it's certainly not to upset or offend, and if I did, please accept my apology.

 

Bullet

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I wont mention names but there is a riding school here in the UK that teaches the students to coast to the apex, i.e brake for the turn, turn in, coast (off the throttle) to the apex then, on the throttle and drive out of the turn! Before doing CSS I used to ride like this, I also lowsided on a wet track riding like this!

Now for me getting the 60-40 split is crucial, I also get anoyed with myself if I notice a gap between when I've turned the bike and getting on the throttle.

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But don't ya think that your wrong line and lazy turn probably prevented you from being able to get on the throttle as soon as you should have?

 

First of all, thx for the great posts again!

 

I agree with this. The right line and quick turn would have allowed me to crack on the throttle sooner...

 

Btw, I just finished two days at track and I was working with the basics e.g. turn point and throttle there. I was driving appx 75 % pace of my ability, tried to be relaxed and controlled all the time. I did not charge any turn, I rolled off early, gentle braking concentrating to set the speed and let off the brakes smoothly - turn in - and get on the gas asap but smoothly again. The result: I made only 1-2 secs slower laptimes compared to previous aggressive style (hard on the gas - hard on the brakes...).

 

I'm still afraid of my front but during the past days at track I had no problems at all. Guess I need to train the throttle even more, I still tend to be quite rough with openings which can ruin the entrance of next corner...

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I'm still afraid of my front but during the past days at track I had no problems at all. Guess I need to train the throttle even more, I still tend to be quite rough with openings which can ruin the entrance of next corner...

 

As I have been getting faster I have found this to become a bit of an issue, whenever it occurs I put my attention on my entry speed and my desired entry position on the second corner, and focus on exiting the first turn so that I am lined up precisely where I want to be for the second turn! It usually feels like I'm taking the first turn to slow but pays of when I enter the second turn!

sorry for taking the thread a bit off topic here!

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