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Setting Up The Entrance


tweek
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Sunday I did a 2:18.8 around ECR, a personal best. To be mid pack for a CMRA race I would need to lose another 10 seconds (I'm being genous to myself).

 

PArt of my problem is entering corners. Once I'm in I generally get a good drive out. But I'm braking way too hard on the way in and not carrying much speed.

 

One thing I've changed (which helped me get down to the 18s lap) is getting my eyes up. Is there an excercise or something I can do to help get myself entering corners a little faster? I realize that you don't just go out and add 5mph to everyting. But how do you add just 1? Or even just .1?

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Hey Tweek,

 

I don't know the track your talking about, but the scenario you mention is familiar to me.

 

At what point in the turn do you realise you've braked too hard, and that you're now going to slow? For example, is it before the apex, right on it, or after the apex?

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Sunday I did a 2:18.8 around ECR, a personal best. To be mid pack for a CMRA race I would need to lose another 10 seconds (I'm being genous to myself).

 

PArt of my problem is entering corners. Once I'm in I generally get a good drive out. But I'm braking way too hard on the way in and not carrying much speed.

 

One thing I've changed (which helped me get down to the 18s lap) is getting my eyes up. Is there an excercise or something I can do to help get myself entering corners a little faster? I realize that you don't just go out and add 5mph to everyting. But how do you add just 1? Or even just .1?

 

Hey Tweek,

 

One of the things Keith talks about is our sense of speed when we're braking hard, and how it is more difficult to judge our corner entry speed accurately when charging into a corner. I saw that you did level 1 back in 2007 and do you remember the 2-step drill? This might be what you need to practice.

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Sof hit the nail on the head. You have exactly the same thing I'm weak at, and the two step is fantastic at correcting this. Maybe you've forgotten how far ahead you need to be looking at your apex? It's something I'm going to work on and focus on during my next trackday so I make it habit. I was slowly increasing my speed in Vegas after learning it, and still feel I screwed up too consistently on a few corners, and could have definitely gone faster. A review of the two step is probably the best thing.

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ECR -> http://www.eaglescanyon.com/2008/home.php

Just joined so I can get all the track time I have time for (meaning not a lot $#%@$#%@#$%)

 

Some videos of me going (slowly) around the track: http://www.youtube.com/tweekscratch

I label things pretty clearly. I have some video from some pretty fast riders going around ECR.

 

Anyway - 2 step makes a lot of sense. I think my basic control of the bike is good and I have good lines so reference points make sense. I'll just have to go find RPs to look at to help me setup my entrances.

 

The ECR track record is 1.39 in an open wheeler. I think the record on a bike is in the low 1.40s. My goal is just to get below 2 minutes. I would like ot see a 2:15 before New Years.

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ECR -> http://www.eaglescanyon.com/2008/home.php

Just joined so I can get all the track time I have time for (meaning not a lot $#%@$#%@#$%)

 

Some videos of me going (slowly) around the track: http://www.youtube.com/tweekscratch

I label things pretty clearly. I have some video from some pretty fast riders going around ECR.

 

Anyway - 2 step makes a lot of sense. I think my basic control of the bike is good and I have good lines so reference points make sense. I'll just have to go find RPs to look at to help me setup my entrances.

 

The ECR track record is 1.39 in an open wheeler. I think the record on a bike is in the low 1.40s. My goal is just to get below 2 minutes. I would like ot see a 2:15 before New Years.

 

I bet if you worked on your Quick Turns too, you'd increase your entry speed without having to brake as much. Put them together and you'll get a repeatable line you can fine tune. Hope you have fun And good luck breaking the 2 min barrier :)

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The other drill that will help is the no brakes drill, allows you to get comfortable with having more entry speed, and helps you get a better feel for what is a good entrance speed while gradually increasing it.

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The other drill that will help is the no brakes drill, allows you to get comfortable with having more entry speed, and helps you get a better feel for what is a good entrance speed while gradually increasing it.

 

Totally right Sleepr. I will be trying it at my next track day, although I'll probably be the only one doing it :)

 

Tweek, if you had a good brake marker that you could set your speed the same each time you take the turn, and aim to get off the brakes and feel your way into the corner before you start the turn so you never get in too hot. This is easier said than done. I listened to a high level CSS coach talk about why you would want to use the brakes into the turn simultaneously, and he said that in racing, you are braking so hard on approach to your turn point that you also might have to brake into the turn to pass someone (or if you overcook it) ; but when you're not under any pressure, the faster line is to calculate all your braking before you initiate and complete the steering and get on the gas sooner to maximize the speed and stability of the bike. There is always less available traction when trying to brake and turn at the same time. The more you have to brake, the more upright the bike has to be. I watch the GP guys trail braking all the time, but then, they're always on the razor edge of traction limits, and I'm almost certain that they are not braking very heavily once they've started the turn if they have to brake at all.

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good points.

 

One of the tricks I've learned with braking markers is to move them to the inside of the track. Most tracks have the markers on the outside. If you watch my videos you'll see them. Going down the back straight I'm getting up toward 140mph and then you have to toss it left in to an uphill crested off camber blind turn (say that 3 times fast). Talk about puckering up. Anyway, if you use the markers on the outside you'll just about park the bike. If you look first at the corner workstation and then the apex cone just behind it you'll carry more speed. However, this brings up a problem with what we are talking about: how the blazes do you 2 step a turn when your braking markers are on the inside and your TP is on the outside? Grow an extra set of eyes?

 

Quick turning is fun. You think you are, but you really arent. Going through 1 & 2 I generally get the quick turn ok. But turns like 3, 6 and 7 I tend to turn pretty slowly. Something for me to think about.

 

4 soccers games this weekend so guess who won't be at the track? Then I have Dallas Startup Weekend next week so no track there either. So Thanks Giving weekend will be next opportunity. However, the girls have made it clear we are going dirt biking at least 1 day. Which also means somebody has to finish cleaning carbs. Big fun.

 

Hopefully the weather will stay nice through December so I can work on this stuff some more.

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Hi tweek

Your question is an interesting one, I'm no expert on the subject but I'l fire an opinion in!

How good is your sense of speed? This is something I've been reading about recently and you would be surprised at the amount of people it can affect, from track day novices to championship contenders!

So you have to ask yourself how good is my sense of speed!

You stated that you were approaching 140 mph on a section at your local track, I take it that you glanced at your speedometer at this point for you to know that, if so how many times during a lap do you glance at your speedometer? If this is something you are doing then I'd suggest that you stick a piece of tape over your speedometer so that you cant see it! obviously the no brakes drill is the best thing for sorting out your sense of speed!

Some advice I got from someone on this forum that really helped me to speed up was to pick 1 corner and focus on increasing my entry speed, use the same turn in point, 2 step, and quick turn fast enough to suit the turn, by doing this you increase your comfort zone gradually but you tend to go that bit faster in all the other turns without thinking about it!

 

Bobby

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Hey Acebobby. Is any of that "sense of speed" you've been reading online? If so, can I get a link or the sites? I would appreciate it.

 

I'm doing my first trackday since school on the 22nd, and am going to drop to the Superstreet group and do 3rd gear, no brakes. I loved it, and got my best time at the school doing that (don't tell anyone, but I used the straight to pass, and did get some brake in there [HEH]).

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Hi Jason

I've not so much been reading about it online, my source of information is the twist books, but I recently reread twist 1 and it does cover sense of speed quite a bit in that book!

The idea of taping up my speedometer came from a dramatic drop in laptimes from Bradley Smith in his first year 125s, when he was struggling to go any faster his team taped up his speedo and he went immediately faster, also when your bike gets scrutineered at the CSS here in the UK they tape your speedo, now whenever I do trackdays I stick a piece of tape over my speedometer and write RELAX on it, I know its a bit cheezy but it works for me!

 

Bobby

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ECR -> http://www.eaglescanyon.com/2008/home.php

Just joined so I can get all the track time I have time for (meaning not a lot $#%@$#%@#$%)

 

Some videos of me going (slowly) around the track: http://www.youtube.com/tweekscratch

I label things pretty clearly. I have some video from some pretty fast riders going around ECR.

 

Couldn't open your URL. Found this:

This rider does seem to not hit top speed or shift gears, slows down too much at entrance, doesn't use the full width of the track, apexes a little early, and has trouble picking a line (mid corner course and throttle corrections). Just going by the mantra: "A good line is one where we can increase the throttle throughout."

 

Hope that helped.

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Couldn't open your URL. Found this:
This rider does seem to not hit top speed or shift gears, slows down too much at entrance, doesn't use the full width of the track, apexes a little early, and has trouble picking a line (mid corner course and throttle corrections). Just going by the mantra: "A good line is one where we can increase the throttle throughout."

 

Hope that helped.

 

that was from May. I still had not shaken my fall downs from the previous year. I'm laughing at my comment about doing a 2:33 and being a decent pace. Your comments are all accurate.

 

Unfortunately I forgot my laptop Sunday so I didnt bother running the camera. Next time out I'll be better organized. I'll also bring along my GPS recorder so I can get more information about what I'm doing.

 

Btw- my speedo is taped. I just know that when the shift light for the ZX6 comes on I'm turning 15K RPM. In 3rd gear that is 125mph and 4th that is 145. Translation: this would be a good time to not screw up.

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I've read all the comments and watched the videos. According to totw, the engine is for accelerating and the brakes are for controlling entry speed. It seems to me (and others) that way too much engine braking is occurring, long before any actual braking is being done. I also noted that there didn't seem to be much emphasis on downshifting to be in the correct gear; in fact while the audio held out I didn't notice much downshifting at all, and the engine appeared to be hauling from very low revs. That's not the end of the world, but it can't help.

So imho I'd be working on being in something like the correct gear, using the brakes for slowing, not the engine, and having a good go at controlling the throttle inputs in the turns. Plenty to work on, just as I have plenty to work on also in many areas.

 

Hope my comments help you and keep on trying! BTW I would love to video my rides on Eastern creek in Australia to get some feedback, but over here we are banned from any video devices at track days. Shame really cos I reckon it would be a great learning tool.

 

db

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