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Points A Shoot


faffi
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Kenny Roberts Sr. has always maintained that the best way to race is to enter the corner relatively slowy, finish it early and using the final part of the corner as a drag strip, gaining speed that will be with you all the way to the next corner. The bike is steering around the corner by spinning the rear wheel, far from the edge of the tyre and hence with a margin of safety - provided a controllable engine with enough torque to spin the rear wheel farirly smoothly. Safety is further enhanced by spinning the engine up where torque is falling/declining.

 

According to Senior, you are most likely to crash when braking at the maximum and cornering at the limit af adhesion. Hence, the trend of carrying high cornering speed and smooth "inline" acceleration leaves the bike near the point where tyres are about to give in for a very long time in comparison.

 

Roberts have always maintained the style is also the fastest way to race, not just the safest. But with the new fuel regulations introduced in 1993, rear wheel steering was heavily reduced in 500 racing, but came back with the 990s only to mostly go away again with the introduction of the 800s. Lately, we have seen rear wheel steering coming back into vogue, probably the result of better electronics and more engine power.

 

Now to the question; is the point and shoot style better and safer also for mere mortals? And how hard is it to learn?

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I think most racers want to get around the track as fast as they can. My experience in the real world is that if one slows down before the corner to set up wheel spin on exit they will get passed and not have the drive to catch up on exit. If one wants to learn rear wheel spin technics they should start riding at age 4. Most riders including myself are not near the limits of traction as far as corner speed goes. Its the mistakes we make going in or going out of the corners on the brakes or throttle. The most important thing for us mortals is to be smooth. I saw a professional rider demonstrate throttle control once. I could not see his hand move but he went from idle to 11,000 rpm. So smooth on the brakes it is hard to see the forks move...thats what mortals should work on. Once you have the basic tenants of riding handled then work on them with smoothness....smooth can help prevent mistakes near the limit.

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I think most racers want to get around the track as fast as they can. My experience in the real world is that if one slows down before the corner to set up wheel spin on exit they will get passed and not have the drive to catch up on exit. If one wants to learn rear wheel spin technics they should start riding at age 4. Most riders including myself are not near the limits of traction as far as corner speed goes. Its the mistakes we make going in or going out of the corners on the brakes or throttle. The most important thing for us mortals is to be smooth. I saw a professional rider demonstrate throttle control once. I could not see his hand move but he went from idle to 11,000 rpm. So smooth on the brakes it is hard to see the forks move...thats what mortals should work on. Once you have the basic tenants of riding handled then work on them with smoothness....smooth can help prevent mistakes near the limit.

 

 

 

Nice response their fossil. I guess my only observation Eirik, is that riding tecnique and technology has improved dramatically, the tyres are just remarkable these days to allow such levels of drive and lean combination that Kenny and his boys could never have dreamed of no doubt. I do believe that slower in faster out is still the fastest way, though as Fossil absolutely noted, if you really did take this advice to mind, you'd get stuffed into every turn you came too. I think the tyres and suspension/chassis developments have made it possible to brake so hard and deep that again, this has changed. As for the spinning it up, well, that's possible, but these top guys have got very smart traction control/spin control to lean on, and they're no crashin their own bikes. I reckon i'd be a bit braver if I didn't have to pay for my bike if I lobbed it experimenting a bit and learning the trade. ;)

 

Bullet

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...and they're no crashin their own bikes. I reckon i'd be a bit braver if I didn't have to pay for my bike if I lobbed it experimenting a bit and learning the trade. ;)

 

Bullet

 

That is one insightful comment right there! Well said Bullet :lol:

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An interesting thing that Keith and Dylan have pointed out, is that even when someone is backing-it-in, or when steering with the rear (as mentioned above), to some degree the bike is still traveling in a straight line, and is not actually moving 100% in the intended direction.

 

I also have to agree with Bullet. If I was given a bunch of toys to play with and break, and not have to pay for them or fix them, I'd be experimenting with more than just rear wheel spin on entry. :)

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I think for that kind of technique to work you need to be nudging the traction limits before you even start the slide. If you aren't near that llimit than its very likely you'll going straight passed that perfect slide and high-side instead. Its probably not worth much time either so unless your at a professional pace there are much easier and safer ways to lower your lap times. By the time you reach that pace you'll probably figure out how to get that slide on your own. I'm sure its useful for pros but for us mortals its probably one of the least effective techniques you could learn to lower lap times.

 

Its loads of fun to do it offroad but I never dared to do it on my sportbike. Slides in the dirt with knoby tire are much more forgiving as well.

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I think for that kind of technique to work you need to be nudging the traction limits before you even start the slide. If you aren't near that llimit than its very likely you'll going straight passed that perfect slide and high-side instead.

 

Intuitively, that sounds wrong to me, provided I understood you correctly. If you are using all grip for cornering and then add power to start a slide, I would imagine there is no grip in reserve to control things if you apply too much throttle, making it near impossible to control the slide. You will, I assume, want to be a bit away from ultimate lean so that you have some extra grip to play with. But those who master this technique may know differently.

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<br />
<br />I think for that kind of technique to work you need to be nudging the traction limits before you even start the slide. If you aren't near that llimit than its very likely you'll going straight passed that perfect slide and high-side instead. <br />
<br /><br />Intuitively, that sounds wrong to me, provided I understood you correctly. If you are using all grip for cornering and then add power to start a slide, I would imagine there is no grip in reserve to control things if you apply too much throttle, making it near impossible to control the slide. You will, I assume, want to be a bit away from ultimate lean so that you have some extra grip to play with. But those who master this technique may know differently.<br />
<br /><br /><br />

 

You don't need to be at max lean angle (and probably shouldn't be) to be near the rear tires traction limit. You just need to feel how much traction you have left between accelerating and lean angle. The reason why its important to be at that limit is so you can feel where your tire limits are which allows you to make an accurate input to start the slide. If you don't feel how much traction you have available than its a blind shot in the dark when you try to initiate a slide. Thats why its so important to be smooth. Being smooth allows you to feel the bikes maximum performance in a controlled way without going over its limitations.

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It may well be that we are on the same page but using different words. I definitely agree on being smooth. I also believe that having a lot more power than you actually need, and predictable power at that, is really important if you want to spin the rear tyre under control. As such, I don't think it matters much how far you're leaned over and how much grip there is in reserve.

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Yeah I didn't  do a great job of explaining myself the first time as always.

 

I still don't think theres any practical use for sliding in road racing. Its seems to be more of a by product of the riders style and comfort level like backing it in. Some sliding I think gets a little more out of a tire thats up to race temperature but its not much. Cornering radius is decided by where the front tire is pointing whether the rear end is sliding or not and acceleration is limited by keeping the front tire on the ground.

 

I think I saw someone on this forum say 100% grip plus 10% slip (about) gets the most out of your tires. That 10% is probably pretty hard to see compaired to the pictures you posted.

 

You can still use a point and shoot type of line without sliding. To some extent I think thats how CSS teaches you to corner. Release the brakes and flick the bike as quickly as possible. Than immediately get back on the throttle and roll on as you exit the corner.

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There area few pieces to this for sure, but wouldn't disagree that one can go a bit far with sliding. For example, sliding the back actually points the front outwards (in the slide) until the slideing is doing, then it can help in where the bike is pointed...hope that made sense, let me know if not.

 

CF

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Does Roberts mean that he sets up a slide to use up all the grip, as he finds it easier/safer to control this as a wheelspin than by using corner speed to reach the edge of traction? Or is his squared-off corner ex-MX style more to do with his style and the era of bikes he was racing?

 

Sliding the rear to steer the bike, keeping the bike as little as possible at maximum lean, where the risk of crashing is at the greatest. Without sliding the rear to steer you could not complete the corner with the reduced lean.

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  • 2 weeks later...

Maybe this isn't about sliding the rear end. Maybe this is about going slow in the slow stuff and fast in the fast stuff.

 


  •  
  • If you scream around a corner dragging your elbows and wishing for more clearance, you take a bigger risk of sliding out, and you may or may not be in a good position to charge up the next straight.
  • If you get around the corner in good shape, no drama, no big deal, and exit the turn with the engine turning somewhere between the torque and horsepower peaks, then you have a good chance to zip right up to top speed and make good time on the next straight.

 

We talk a LOT about cornering, but you could think of riding fast on a track as setting land speed records on the straights, then slowing down enough to keep from running off the track or falling over in the corners. In other words, you could think of corners as a fun way to connect the straights. That's a different attitude than trying to slide the rear tire into every corner.

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