faffi Posted July 2, 2012 Report Share Posted July 2, 2012 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
faffi Posted July 2, 2012 Author Report Share Posted July 2, 2012 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IYClRUxBoQ0&feature=fvwrel Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ktk_ace Posted July 2, 2012 Report Share Posted July 2, 2012 being able to read other road users really helps in avoiding living road hazards Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YellowDuck Posted July 3, 2012 Report Share Posted July 3, 2012 being able to read other road users really helps in avoiding living road hazards Well, the first two are pretty obvious as to what happened, but what on earth made the CBR600RR rider crash???? Nothing at all challenging about the road or the situation. Perhaps he encountered a bunch of dirt on the road and suddenly didn't believe the bike would turn? Guy with the camera did a good job avoiding him. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
faffi Posted July 3, 2012 Author Report Share Posted July 3, 2012 To me it looks like he lost concentration for a moment, noticed he was heading towards the armco and looked at it instead of up the road. He then followed his eyes off the road. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tmckeen Posted July 3, 2012 Report Share Posted July 3, 2012 but what on earth made the CBR600RR rider crash???? I wondered this myself and watched the video way to many times trying to figure that our, If you watch the rider in front of the CBR closely you will notice he applies a lot more lean angle at the point where the CBR runs wide, so i think the road does tighten up a good bit even tho its hard to tell from the video since they slow down due to the wreck. Its kinda hard to see especially if your not watching it in full screen. I believe the rider on the CBR ran into the mental block of "I'm already at max lean and cant possibly tighten up my line" despite the reality of being nowhere near the physical limits of his machine and man the Harley's running into the ditch .... I think that's evolution trying to do its job right there Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mugget Posted July 6, 2012 Report Share Posted July 6, 2012 Just to throw a question in here... have you ever seen an accident that could not have been avoided? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
faffi Posted July 7, 2012 Author Report Share Posted July 7, 2012 Well, if this had gone bad for the rider, I think it would have to be considered (nigh on) impossible to avoid Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
warthog1984 Posted July 7, 2012 Report Share Posted July 7, 2012 Just to throw a question in here... have you ever seen an accident that could not have been avoided? I've had one, where a manhole in a corner camouflaged a pothole that ripped up my strut. Generally, the only crashes I've seen that are unavoidable are ones where a 3rd party did something so out of control that a situation changed too fast to react OR there's something hidden in the road where your first indication is substantial damage to the vehicle. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hotfoot Posted July 8, 2012 Report Share Posted July 8, 2012 being able to read other road users really helps in avoiding living road hazards Well, the first two are pretty obvious as to what happened, but what on earth made the CBR600RR rider crash???? Nothing at all challenging about the road or the situation. Perhaps he encountered a bunch of dirt on the road and suddenly didn't believe the bike would turn? Guy with the camera did a good job avoiding him. If you enlarge it and watch closely, it looks like he's doing fine, then he suddenly stands the bike up a little, then almost immediately the brake light comes on. So my guess is that he looked at the barrier, added a small steering input (steering toward the barrier / standing the bike up a bit) and then gets scared and gets on the brakes and stiffens up on the bars. In terms of a full sequence, maybe something like this: Rider is riding slightly over his head or close to his perceived limit He sees the corner tightening up a little so it fires up his "in too fast" SR He target locks on the barrier (the thing he is worried about hitting) He tenses up on the bars, so he can no longer steer effectively As a result of either the stiff arms or the tendency to "go where we look" (or both) he causes the bike to start to run wide He chops the throttle and grabs the brake, which makes the bike stand up and run wide even more He hits loose dirt and gravel on the shoulder while hard on the brakes and locks up the front wheel. At almost any point if he could have looked up the road at where he wanted to go, he could almost certainly have saved it. Seeing that he had enough room to get it turned would have allowed him to get control of the other SRs that were going off like fireworks (stiff on bars, steering errors, braking errors, off the gas...), steer the bike and get through the turn. Not riding so close to his limit might have prevented the first SR reaction from occurring, and Superbike School training could prevented all the other errors that occurred afterwards! There was another FANTASTIC example someone posted a while ago where a guy came around a corner, and saw a cop. He grabbed the brake, went wide and crashed. Obviously seeing the cop fired up his "in too fast" panic reaction! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tmckeen Posted July 9, 2012 Report Share Posted July 9, 2012 Just to throw a question in here... have you ever seen an accident that could not have been avoided? depending on how you look at it there isn't a single accident that couldn't have been prevented if you simply go back in time and change a few variables leading up to the accident Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mugget Posted July 9, 2012 Report Share Posted July 9, 2012 Interesting vid Eirik. Even in that situation I would wonder if the rider was really paying appropriate attention and at a safe distance where he could have stopped if the car in front had just slammed on the brakes with no notice? If not, he wasn't giving himself enough safety margin. But yeah that could have ended really badly for the rider... Good point T-McKeen. When you say changing variables, do you mean the rider making different (better) decisions? Because that's kind of the point I'm thinking of - in every crash there is usually something that could have been done to avoid it, so why not be aware of those things before an accident even happens. The other side of that is that if someone believes there are certain circumstances where a crash was/is unavoidable - they're basically accepting the fact that they are going to crash! Which I just don't believe is true at all. If I had to describe an impossible to avoid accident, it would be something like a meteorite landing on my head. It wouldn't be anything to do with other road users. In your example warthog, I'm guessing you were driving a car (do bikes have struts? ) But if I were on a bike I would simply choose a line that I knew was good road surface, anything that I'm not sure of I will avoid. At least that's the way I approach my riding - with the view that there's no such thing as an unavoidable accident. If I crash, it's because I made a mistake or made a poor decision. Minimising mistakes and making good decisions has been working well for me! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tmckeen Posted July 10, 2012 Report Share Posted July 10, 2012 It really depends on how big of a devil's advocate you want to be, you can change simple variables like reducing speed by 10 mph, adding a few more seconds of following distance, taking a cleaner line to avoid road debris etc. etc. or consider larger ones such as riding 5 MPH slower for the previous hour and not being in the wrong place at the wrong time , or catching 1 extra stop light, stuff like that. I maintain that over 99% of all accidents worldwide could have been prevented had the person simply not gotten out of bed that morning The Military has a term for your approach to riding , Its called O.R.M. or Operational Risk Management. Its basically 4 steps 1: Identify potential Hazards 2: Develop controls to minimize or negate said hazards 3: Implement those controls 4: Supervise ( most likely Brad's favorite step here ) For example on the Freeway's here in LA I can identify other drivers attempting to invade my road-space as a potential hazard, my control for this hazard is to always ride in the leftmost lane thereby reducing the direction motorists can merge into my lane from by 50% and while I've heard many stories of the Median divider jumping out in front of someone I've yet to actually see that happen Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
faffi Posted July 10, 2012 Author Report Share Posted July 10, 2012 When saying accidents could have been avoided, you also have to define for whom. If a car sverves into your lane - driver could have died at the wheel or just not paying attention, you cannot avoid a head-on in many circumstances. Yet the accident could in most cases have been avoided by the other party. A bird flying in your face, knocking you out. A sneeze or 20 at the wrong time. The ground simply collapsing below you. Still, there is no denying that most accidents happen due to human error. But unless we really do want to spend our lifes in bed, we must accept some accidents. We can, and should, however, avoid stupid risks, situations where we know things can go pear shaped in a hurry. I wish I'd listned more to my own advice Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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