aslcbr600 Posted September 14, 2012 Report Share Posted September 14, 2012 2 days ago I bought a track bike with all kinds of goodies, I bought an 07 Triumph 675. Ohlins rear shock, GP internals, ect ect list goes on! This bike is the first bike I have ever rode with Dunlop UK racing slicks, since the bike is so new to me and completely different then my mildly modified CBR600RR I wanted to do some riding up and down some back roads just to get a feel for it. I know that with racing tires you need tire warmers and get a good solid lap or so in until you really start pushing them, I wasn't trying to drag a knee or anything I just wanted to get some seat/familiar time with it briefly. I got the tires somewhat warm, for sure they were warmer then any street tire even after a spirited ride but I still didn't want to risk them not having proper grip.....my question is how do you know when your tires have reached enough temperature to start leaning into turns? All I did was just slowly work into the turn but as we all know, without confidence in your tire grip the less confidence you will have in the turn. Without tire warmers and hearing even after tire warmers you still need a solid warm up lap I knew I wasn't going to reach proper tire heat for any substantial grip. This question is for track purposes, not street use with racing tires. Just after this brief ride today it brought this question up. Also I am used to car racing slicks where it has the holes in it so you know how much rubber you have left, on these tires I don't see that so what is it your looking for to know how much tire life you have on these slicks? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
faffi Posted September 14, 2012 Report Share Posted September 14, 2012 I doubt tyre warmers will play any matter after 2, max 3, laps regardless of how you ride. Ride gently, and the heat from the warmers will go away. Do a couple of hard stops and accelerations and upp the pace consistently over two laps, and the tyres will be just as warm from cold as from warmers. The main reason to heat them up front is to be able to attack from the word go. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
khp Posted September 14, 2012 Report Share Posted September 14, 2012 Tarmac temperature matters! If I have warmers on the trackbike, I will usually on purpose drag my knee in the first corner on the first lap without any slides, squirms etc. For the SportSmart road tyres, I have had my knee down on the first lap by accident during my CSS classes last year in Sweden. I guess the track temperature were around 20 degrees C. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
warregl Posted September 14, 2012 Report Share Posted September 14, 2012 ...I will usually on purpose drag my knee in the first corner on the first lap without any slides, squirms etc. But you're like 7 feet tall...don't you drag you knee in the straights? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
khp Posted September 14, 2012 Report Share Posted September 14, 2012 ...I will usually on purpose drag my knee in the first corner on the first lap without any slides, squirms etc. But you're like 7 feet tall...don't you drag you knee in the straights? Nah, actually not. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ktk_ace Posted September 14, 2012 Report Share Posted September 14, 2012 ...I will usually on purpose drag my knee in the first corner on the first lap without any slides, squirms etc. But you're like 7 feet tall...don't you drag you knee in the straights? Nah, actually not. heil, im only 5 foot 10 without gear Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bradvanhorn Posted September 14, 2012 Report Share Posted September 14, 2012 Congratulations on your new track bike Steve, our resident Dunlop expert, is very consistent when it comes to grip and warmers vs. no warmers. Regardless of whether you're on street tires, slicks, etc... If you use warmers then you can go out a ride without taking additional time/laps to warm the tires. Hot off the warmers the tires are all set, go ride hard. Cold tires need a couple laps to get up to temp, don't try to set a personal best your first couple laps. These are a couple posts Steve made on a track day forum. I link them often because they provide fantastic background information. http://tracktalk.nesba.com/showthread.php?t=19270 http://tracktalk.nesba.com/showthread.php?t=19249 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lukem Posted September 14, 2012 Report Share Posted September 14, 2012 Also I am used to car racing slicks where it has the holes in it so you know how much rubber you have left, on these tires I don't see that so what is it your looking for to know how much tire life you have on these slicks? My Pirelli slicks have wear indicators. I am pretty sure all slicks do. As an aside, with proper racing tyres, you have to work them hard to get them into a temperature zone where they will give maximum grip. If you don't ride fast enough then you may find they will over less grip than a tyre designed to work at lower temperatures. That's why racing tyres are generally not recommended for the road - you simply can't work them hard enough! Tyre warmers will just help get the tyre up to temperature from the moment the flag drops (in a race). After a lap or two, the temperature of the tyres will be purely down to your riding. On thing worth mentioning with the Dunlop's (NTEC's) if you are not aware, is they have a very stiff sidewall and as such you need to run the rear at a lower pressure to what you are probably used to. I only did a single testday on my 675 with NTECS and my memory is hazy, but seem to recall running hot pressures of 24 psi in the rear. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aslcbr600 Posted September 15, 2012 Author Report Share Posted September 15, 2012 So basically if you have tire warmers you can just go all out once the flag drops and if you don't have tire warmers then you have to work the tires in each lap and build up the heat. This brings to mind when Rossi hit a chicane and the left side of the tire wasn't as hot and he ended up lowsiding. That brings me to another question, let's say the track has more right hand turns then left hand turns. Do you have to work your way into the left hand turns to build up heat on that side of the tire before pushing deeper lean angles? I know track conditions will play a factor as well, such as if the track is surface is cold, or wet would determine how you ride but this is just in general considering the track was at optimum temperature. Close on the tire temperature, for the D675 it's 31 front and 23 rear. The previous owner told me that and it stuck with me like glue lol. Brad, thanks for the links! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lukem Posted September 15, 2012 Report Share Posted September 15, 2012 So basically if you have tire warmers you can just go all out once the flag drops and if you don't have tire warmers then you have to work the tires in each lap and build up the heat. This brings to mind when Rossi hit a chicane and the left side of the tire wasn't as hot and he ended up lowsiding. That brings me to another question, let's say the track has more right hand turns then left hand turns. Do you have to work your way into the left hand turns to build up heat on that side of the tire before pushing deeper lean angles? A tyre warmed by a warmer is still not as hot as one that has been ridden on for a couple of laps. Warmers just avoid having to start on cold tyres. In a 6-8 lap sprint, you can't spend 2 laps warming your tyres. I usually ride the warm up lap fairly fast to keep heat in the tyres as well! I know at my local track we have a lot of faster, hard driving right turns and only 2 slowish left turns. You have to be a little more careful on the lefts and the first one has claimed a lot of scalps of riders on the opening lap. Bottom line is ride to the conditions which doesn't just mean the track/weather, but also your tyre temperature and condition as well. When I was just doing track days without warmers, I'd always take it easier for the first 2-3 laps. Better to be cautious then go home early with a bent bike! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aslcbr600 Posted September 16, 2012 Author Report Share Posted September 16, 2012 Ah ok, that makes sense. A little off topic but when it comes to choosing tire warmers, what should you be looking for? There are different brands and different prices. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
khp Posted September 16, 2012 Report Share Posted September 16, 2012 So basically if you have tire warmers you can just go all out once the flag drops and if you don't have tire warmers then you have to work the tires in each lap and build up the heat. This brings to mind when Rossi hit a chicane and the left side of the tire wasn't as hot and he ended up lowsiding. That brings me to another question, let's say the track has more right hand turns then left hand turns. Do you have to work your way into the left hand turns to build up heat on that side of the tire before pushing deeper lean angles? You have to remember that Rossi and his friends use the traction to the very last percent (and less than that), in order to turn competitive laptimes. I sure as heck don't do that, so not having quite as much heat in one side over the other normally don't mean a thing to me. But the left-vs-right turns is important, as Luke points out. Case in point: Anderstorp has 5 right-hand turns and 3 left-hands. But the two of the lefties are really short, and the last left-hand is a big 190 degree sweeper, coming after 4 right turns and lots of straights - so the left hand side of the tyre will be a lot cooler and that turn has caught out quite a few people (I just got a big scare out of a slide/grip/slide some years ago). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aslcbr600 Posted September 16, 2012 Author Report Share Posted September 16, 2012 Yea that's exactly what I was referring to! I am assuming the only way to get to know the limit is in practice and slowly progress on that cold side of the tire and see how fast you can go without losing grip? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aslcbr600 Posted September 16, 2012 Author Report Share Posted September 16, 2012 I could be over thinking this as well, again I have never ran on race tires before just higher performance street tires such as the Michellin Power Pure. Would it be safe to say that even though one side of the race tire may be a little colder then the other based on the track that it would still grip harder then a street compound tire? I guess I feel like you guys are talking percentage limits and I am talking general grip limitations and don't want to go down because my race tires were as slick as ice. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lukem Posted September 16, 2012 Report Share Posted September 16, 2012 Ah ok, that makes sense. A little off topic but when it comes to choosing tire warmers, what should you be looking for? There are different brands and different prices. Yep! Not sure what other brands are out there, but I bought Capit which are a fairly renowned Italian make. They have been faultless for the past 3 years, whereas I know other guys using cheaper warmers have had issues with them shorting out or catching fire. Chicken Hawk is another brand which I have heard good things about and they are US made, but I have no personal experience of them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aslcbr600 Posted September 16, 2012 Author Report Share Posted September 16, 2012 Oh wow, I will look into those brands. I figured some of them would short out but never thought they would catch fire! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YellowDuck Posted September 17, 2012 Report Share Posted September 17, 2012 Surprised no one has mentioned this, but.... Another very important reason for tire warmers in a track day situation where *race* tires are being used, is to keep the tires warm between sessions, to prevent them from cooling down. Unlike streeet tires, race tires are not designed to withstand dozens and dozens of heat cycles. Eventually they will gas out and turn to ###### if you keep heating them up and letting them cool. So, tire warmers help preserve the tires so you can get more use out of them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aslcbr600 Posted September 17, 2012 Author Report Share Posted September 17, 2012 Surprised no one has mentioned this, but.... Another very important reason for tire warmers in a track day situation where *race* tires are being used, is to keep the tires warm between sessions, to prevent them from cooling down. Unlike streeet tires, race tires are not designed to withstand dozens and dozens of heat cycles. Eventually they will gas out and turn to ###### if you keep heating them up and letting them cool. So, tire warmers help preserve the tires so you can get more use out of them. Oh wow thanks for the tip! Didn't know that! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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