Chicanes And Wot

[csmith12]

I am loosing a ton of drive during a chicane that I feel I can take at or near WOT? What is the secret to getting the bike to "easily" flick over while under load? I have tried focus on knee to knee and hard countersteer and sometimes even pushing and pulling on the other bar at the same time? I get it over.... it just doesn't feel smooth.

 

Ideas?

[Cobie Fair]

Hi CS,

 

Per your profile, not yet done a school?

 

Since the drive is what you mention, if the corner entry were a hair easier, could you get back to the throttle a little sooner?

 

Best,

CF

[aslcbr600]

Are you saying that you are losing drive during the chicane because you aren't able to flick the bike over fast enough hence not being back to the gas earlier? Or is your line through the entry of the chicane setting you up for failure?

[csmith12]

Thanks for your response guys. Sorry, I was somewhat unclear.

 

The chicane is a right corner to left corner. There is about 700ft of straight before this chicane. As you can see, my entry into the chicane is trying to straighten the first part out. Turn in point is about mid track. While I don't have a problem with this line, the issue is transitioning into the second. I feel I can carry much more speed, in fact be WOT in 3rd gear. But the turn in for the left hander feels sluggish or like the bike doesn't want to turn.

 

 

 

My current solution to get the smoothness I am looking for and an easy flick is to roll off a bit to initiate the turn, Then right back to the throttle. I loose drive if I roll off but if I roll to WOT it feels right (speed and drive), it's just hard to make the flick and thus... not smooth.

 

Maybe enter the chicane with more speed (take a different line) so I can reach a neutral throttle to turn in?

[csmith12]

Oh...correct. I haven't taken any of the levels yet. VIR is the closest this year per the schedule. Going to try to make it happen.

[aslcbr600]

Are the other riders on course around your level going through there much faster then you or is this just a personal goal? Just thinking to ask one of the higher level riders that aren't your competitor and see how they take it and what they do to get the bike flicked over faster.

 

Wish I could be more of help but I don't want to try and give advice on an area that I am not experienced with and seem like I am talking out my rear lol.

[Cobie Fair]

The bike will be harder to turn on the gas. Pausing (even just going neutral) will make it easier to turn.

 

This is a hard one to fully clear up, one thing is you mention "smooth". What do you mean when it isn't smooth?

[csmith12]

Hmmmm, not smooth as in the hands and bar area. When transitioning from right to left in the middle of the chicane, I have a very rigid grip on the bars and a really hard push to countersteer. Maybe I am somewhat jerky during that hard push where it takes more muscle to flick over. Could be as simple as I am somewhat charging the second corner? I do miss my line every now and then but I was blaming it on not getting the bike over fast enough at the end of the day when tired. Dunno if that is right though.

 

And.....

 

Sure, there are plenty of faster riders. I have asked them about line and throttle control. I got 2 common answers about line and the throttle control answers was a mixed bag.

 

For line, there seems to be two that are very common. First is a lazy line, starting way outside and early apex through the first corner to straiten it out and carry more speed, with braking and a quick flick into the second corner of the chicane (easy flick). It's not as fast and leaves me open to passes on the inside. The second is the race line (shown from control riders & me watching AMA races), it has a mid-track entry with an early apex on the first corner that guards the inside pass and straightens out the entire chicane. It's this second line that sets up a hard flick to the left if I continue my roll to near or at WOT.

 

For throttle, the answers were all over the place but the most common one was "just maintenance throttle between the corners of the chicane".

[aslcbr600]

Just throwing an idea out there but have you tried adjusting the suspension and then going through the chicane to see if you notice any difference in how easy it is to flick the bike or how it changed the feeling?

 

Maybe adjusting the suspension and working on that part of the track will give you a better idea of how you can put the puzzle together of your suspension and what input you are doing on the bike to come up with a joint conclusion.

 

Just thinking if you play with the suspension and you are getting the exact same results that it would come down to rider input...

[csmith12]

As a matter of fact I have made suspension changes but I have not really been focusing on this section when it comes to suspension. The stock components have been mostly set to my weight and riding preferences. I have been tweaking front rebound and compression for 3 or 4 track days prior (all the same track). I was thinking I am getting it close to dialed in. The rear feels great and the front was getting really close. Throughout the rest of the track, I was knocking out a few soft spots and everything is starting to feel planted in most areas. I have baselined and balanced my setup at 32mm of sag and have added some rebound the rear and on the front I added 2 clicks of rebound for late braking (I ride a ninja 250 too) and a bit of compression to keep the dive to a minimum for the really hard braking. I stopped changing things when the rear would kind of lightly skip across the tarmac that last 100ft coming into turn one under hard braking after the long straight. The rear settles nicely as I start to trail off just before turn in.

 

Since the bike feels outstanding in every other part of the track accept for 1 other place, I am thinking this a rider issue rather than a bike problem. Not only that but other riders are still beating me through this section on basically equal bikes. One of those riders rides and 08 r6, he said to lower the front 1 or 2 mm at a time until I like it but I am unsure of that. I am reluctant to mess with a good thing that I have going aside of a couple small things.

 

I have also tried a different set of tires. I am a big fan of Q2's but I also really like the michelin power cups for their turning characteristics, they have great grip too. The V profile really helps flickability, even under load. Right now I have the power cup on the front and the power one on the rear. Maybe I should get the cup on the rear as well.

 

It feels like I am sooooo close.

[aslcbr600]

Yup looks like rider input is the culprit for this one, if you have a gopro you should point it towards you so you can see exactly what your body is doing through that section. After a couple laps then turn the camera around and give it the track view, this way you can see both body and line. Sure it wont be exactly matched up but if you are hitting your RP's it shouldn't be terribly difficult to see if it's a mix of your line and body mechanics as you go through the turn.

 

When I was first learning the body positioning I would always point the camera towards me, the camera doesn't lie....sometimes we think we are doing something and then realize by watching the video we are doing something slightly different then we actually thought. Not saying your BP is incorrect but you said you were using the "knee to knee" and hard counter steering to flick the bike over and maybe you could find a flaw in all of that body movement that you could rule out as what is really killing your speed through there.

 

I was reading one of KC's books and it was saying bikes only do 2 things, change direction and change speed but riders do at least 7 different things....

[mblaster]

Maybe some of the answers are bike specific. On my old heep I go neutral for a moment on the throttle during the second flick as I am already carrying a lot of speed. Then back to rolling on to finish the turn.

[csmith12]

Thanks for the insight aslcbr600, Aside of just having to push harder to countersteer... I think I might just be lazy on my hip flick and be using body weight to aid flicking the bike over as I slide across the seat. If that is the case, it would also tell me I am late doing other things. Like finding my visual markers in time.

 

I will continue to tweak to my preferences mblaster. I have all winter to make any changes I have already identified, I will double check everything to ensure I haven't missed anything. My OCD will kick in I am sure.

 

I think I am getting really, really close to figuring out what this chicane as well as the rest of the track is asking of me and the bike.

 

Thanks for you help everyone, I can't wait to get out there on the track to put some of these thoughts to the test.

[aslcbr600]

No problem, hope you get it figured out!

[bradvanhorn]

I may be off the mark but I keep thinking... Have you been able to verify through measurable data you're drive is not as good if you briefly roll off for the transition in the chicane? (Presumably by telemetry data or something similar.) Sometimes our sensations or perceptions are deceptive. If you haven't verified the data then maybe the roll-off is benefiting you more than you realize (or maybe not...)

 

This is not a direct situational comparison... During a recent track day I followed a friend through the fast esses at NOLA. Our lap to lap pace was roughly the same but I noticed he wasn't changing speed throughout the early esses and then would gradually slow as he went through. He also seemed to run increasingly wide with each transition. When we got in the pits I asked him what was bothering him. He thought it simply was his bike was big, heavy and harder to turn (it's a TL1000R). I asked if he was rolling off slightly for each transition. He was in fact trying to stay on the gas the whole time. This was making it very difficult to get the bike to transition, thus pushing him wide and eventually forcing him to slow and make bigger corrections. Those esses are pretty fast and he thought staying on the gas was the key to being fast going through. I convinced him to make a slight roll-off before each transition, turn the bike, then go back to the gas. He followed me for a couple laps to see what I was doing and then I followed him the rest of the session and I could see him making the roll-offs each time. I had previously been running up on him and having to slow-up slightly in this section but now I had to work a little harder myself to keep him from pulling away. Also, his line was much tighter and more consistent; no more running wide. Afterwards he was astounded at the improvement. He had thought staying on the gas was the right move but discovered the roll-off was a far greater benefit.

[csmith12]

Thanks for the additional info Brad. I have video (helmet cam) and a lap timer. So no real telemetry but my lap times are normally within a few seconds of each other, give or take for traffic and how tired I get. I will have to dissect my videos to get my time through this section for direct comparison.

 

I will add that to my TODO list for my next track day there. Maybe I am not loosing as much as I think but it sure feels like I can go much faster. So I have 2 main choices;

 

Higher entry speed - to get a roll off during transition

Suck it up - More muscle to quick flick with better technique

 

In the end, I most likely will end up having to come to terms with both if I want to guard against the pass on the inside or pull farther ahead.

[Cobie Fair]

Thanks for the insight aslcbr600, Aside of just having to push harder to countersteer... I think I might just be lazy on my hip flick and be using body weight to aid flicking the bike over as I slide across the seat. If that is the case, it would also tell me I am late doing other things. Like finding my visual markers in time.

 

Body weight doesn't actually help flick the bike, just the bars.

 

Another thing I wonder about is if you are tight on the bars when you steer are you fighting one hand with the other?

[csmith12]

I am definitely sure I am not tight on the bars. I have many pics of my riding where my hands aren't even fully wrapping the grip, rigid arms maybe. And good reassurance that body weight isn't gunna help me.

[aslcbr600]

Looking forward to seeing what happens at your next trackday! Good luck getting it figured out dude.

[sifubs]

Just a few thoughts on things to check:

 

Are you using your hands to hold on to the bike during the transitions as opposed to using your legs? Could this cause unwanted bar inputs such as right hand being stiff giving more resistance to pushing on left bar?

 

Sometimes body position gets compromised as we increase speed and SR takes over and causes your inputs to have some amount of downward force requiring more effort.

 

Could the lack of smoothness be being out of sync with bike movement and body movement?

 

[Lnewqban]

I am loosing a ton of drive during a chicane that I feel I can take at or near WOT? What is the secret to getting the bike to "easily" flick over while under load? I have tried focus on knee to knee and hard countersteer and sometimes even pushing and pulling on the other bar at the same time? I get it over.... it just doesn't feel smooth.

 

Ideas?

 

I don't race or ride at your level; so, I don't know enough to properly advise here.

 

Just talking Physics:

 

I just want to remark that the only force able to quick roll the bike from one extreme lean to the opposite one is counter-steering.

Flicking more that 400 lb around the contact patches in a fraction of second requires some more "muscle" than gentle input or legs' relocation.

 

The lack of smooth feel may be a SR, or the stronger resistance of the steering bar at higher speeds (gyroscopic effect), or the modification that the steering geometry suffers at extreme lean angles (front contact patch is at a weird position and has strange leverage over the bar), or the front suspension working at its worse angle, or maybe a combination of all those.

 

Turning the bar to tight the turn more (to turn-in more) when you body feels so close to the ground must seem crazy; however, is the only way to make the centrifugal force work for you and stand up the bike with authority.

 

Keeping that counter-steer input for ~90 degrees or so roll until the bike reaches the opposite lean angle must feel crazy as well.

 

Then, the counter-steering must be quickly reversed (momentarily reversing the centrifugal force) in order to stop that long-lasting roll at the exact angle that the second part of the chicane requires.

 

I am not sure, but I believe that having the bike under acceleration during that process is less than ideal.

The reason is that a good portion of the traction of the front contact patch is dedicated to resist the lateral forces of the extreme lean angles (first turn first and second turn later), and the counter-steering inputs for flicking the bike use some traction (more for more energetic counter-steering or quick flick).

 

It seems to me that acceleration lightens the front contact patch and decreases its traction capability (easier for counter-steering to overwhelm it).

(Don't trust me in this one, I have been wrong before).

 

Merry Christmas to all !

[csmith12]

The physics makes sense and it all seems to be logical. I really wish I had some footage of my BP going through this section. I petitioned some of my friends who track with me very often for footage of me or anyone else that is really smooth and fast through this section for comparison and review.

 

The only thing I can add to this right now is that maybe I am not using my leg to anchor my countersteer during the transition from right to left. That would give me additional power to offset the additional muscle needed to turn under load without the total strength coming from the upper body.

 

Just got to get back out there and give it a shot.

 

Happy holidays and best wishes in the new year!

[Lnewqban]