Hanging Off Muscle Fatigue

[rootkit007]

I am a noob and still learning proper body position - have dragged my footpeg but not the knee. Lock my outside leg to the tank feels right, but my legs get tired real quick. I have been a gym rat for many years and have strong quad muscles, yet it still happens. Whats funny is that leg muscles more on the inside seem to get tired and quads get little workout. I believe I am doing something wrong - any advice what could it be?

 

Peter

[Jamie01]

Supporting yourself on the tank would involve your adductor muscles more than your quadriceps, so soreness on the inside of your thigh is in the right place, but you may be too tense. It shouldn't be that hard. Do you have tank grips on your bike? That could make it easier to lock in and relax.

[rootkit007]

Supporting yourself on the tank would involve your adductor muscles more than your quadriceps, so soreness on the inside of your thigh is in the right place, but you may be too tense. It shouldn't be that hard. Do you have tank grips on your bike? That could make it easier to lock in and relax.

 

Yes, I got Stomp grips. Its the inside leg that bears the brunt - I wonder if I'm putting too much weight on the inside? Too tense might be right as well. Prolly should include some adductor muscle exercise in my regimen :-|

 

Thanks!

Peter

[csmith12]

Hmmm my first thought is maybe your trying to hard. Relax and let the bike do the hard work of holding you up. What I mean is, every rider on a bike has a sweet spot in the saddle where there is a balance of holding on (with legs), the bike supporting the majority of the weight of the rider and the work the rider must do to move the weight around during cornering. It's hard to describe but you will know when you find that sweet spot because holding on will be easier, the balls of your feet will not hurt after a long day of riding and your time in the saddle will get longer with less effort. ie you will become more efficient at it. Maybe your hanging off to far.

 

A good place to start is to sit on the bike and make a fist. Put it between the tank and your crotch. That should be a good starting point to find your seating position, then adjust as needed to get a good lock on the tank with your knee under the lip of the tank. You may also need to adjust your rearsets and clipons to find the ultimate seating sweet spot with total comfort.

 

IMHO, when it comes to riding, stamina is sometimes more important than strength.

 

Good luck!

[rootkit007]

Hmmm my first thought is maybe your trying to hard. Relax and let the bike do the hard work of holding you up. What I mean is, every rider on a bike has a sweet spot in the saddle where there is a balance of holding on (with legs), the bike supporting the majority of the weight of the rider and the work the rider must do to move the weight around during cornering. It's hard to describe but you will know when you find that sweet spot because holding on will be easier, the balls of your feet will not hurt after a long day of riding and your time in the saddle will get longer with less effort. ie you will become more efficient at it. Maybe your hanging off to far.

 

A good place to start is to sit on the bike and make a fist. Put it between the tank and your crotch. That should be a good starting point to find your seating position, then adjust as needed to get a good lock on the tank with your knee under the lip of the tank. You may also need to adjust your rearsets and clipons to find the ultimate seating sweet spot with total comfort.

 

IMHO, when it comes to riding, stamina is sometimes more important than strength.

 

Good luck!

 

Thanks for all the advice! I am on Kawasaki Ninja 650r, no adjustable clipons or rearsets. Will keep trying

 

Peter

[Cobie Fair]

Might be hanging off too far too, with your lower body--a common thing we find on the Lean Bike.

[rootkit007]

Might be hanging off too far too, with your lower body--a common thing we find on the Lean Bike.

 

Too far to the side, or towards the ground? It feels like most of my weight is on the inside leg. This is how I look now:

 

https://plus.google.com/photos/100264784324343457396/albums/5887662525371378209?authkey=COr0p5n-qq2hNg

 

Thanks!

Peter

[Cobie Fair]

Little hard to tell from these angles, but looks like it's a different position from left to right.

 

Doesn't look too far off, I'd be wondering about how tight you are on the bike (legs too tight) and like to see you on it fore/aft too.

[rootkit007]

Little hard to tell from these angles, but looks like it's a different position from left to right.

 

Doesn't look too far off, I'd be wondering about how tight you are on the bike (legs too tight) and like to see you on it fore/aft too.

 

Thanks for the feedback! I still wonder what exactly 'too tight' means for legs... too much weight on legs? not enough on the seat?

 

Here is a bunch more

 

http://www.gron4.net/2013/060913/nov/kawblu/

[noamkrief]

Peter, welcome to track riding

 

I have been riding motorcycles for about 9 months now total and have around 60 track days under my belt so my memories of the beginning phase are very fresh in my mind.

 

I wanted to share with you that what you are experiencing has occurred to me for about the first 30 track days. My legs got very tired and i can only stay out for about 3-5 laps before the pain was too much to bear.

 

From my experience you are suffering from 2 issues:

1) you are tensing up your legs muscles because your brain thinks that the grip is coming from your legs. In a sense, subconsciously your brain thinks that your feet are on the ground, and that your feet and legs are doing the gripping in the corner.

To fix this, be mindful in the corners that it's the tires that are gripping the ground, not your legs. Try to relax and put your trust in the tires. The tires will grip and clenching up your leg muscles does not create more grip you know this, but your brain does not because it goes to panic and by your photos, you are afraid to lean the bike. An exercise I recommend is for you to ride the track without any body position technique. Sit straight up and down and lean the bike in the corners. Sitting straight up and down on the bike will make it easier to relax your legs and body, and at the same time you will put trust in the tires. You will also get comfortable being on the side of the tire. Make sure you do this with GOOD tires and make sure they are up to temp - 2 laps. You'd be surprised how low you can lean the bike...

 

2) Hanging off the bike only works well at higher bike lean angles. That being said, you are not hanging off that much, but never-the-less expect it to be uncomfortable because when you hang off your body, you will feel like you are about to fall off the bike and you will need to use some muscles to stay locked on.

When you go faster, and you lean to about 45 degrees or more, you can hang off a ton and be very relaxed. Centrifugal force will suck you into the bike and it requires very little effort to hang off the bike and you can stay relaxed.

 

It gets better man! Keep up the good work!

[rootkit007]

Peter, welcome to track riding

 

I have been riding motorcycles for about 9 months now total and have around 60 track days under my belt so my memories of the beginning phase are very fresh in my mind.

 

I wanted to share with you that what you are experiencing has occurred to me for about the first 30 track days. My legs got very tired and i can only stay out for about 3-5 laps before the pain was too much to bear.

 

From my experience you are suffering from 2 issues:

1) you are tensing up your legs muscles because your brain thinks that the grip is coming from your legs. In a sense, subconsciously your brain thinks that your feet are on the ground, and that your feet and legs are doing the gripping in the corner.

To fix this, be mindful in the corners that it's the tires that are gripping the ground, not your legs. Try to relax and put your trust in the tires. The tires will grip and clenching up your leg muscles does not create more grip you know this, but your brain does not because it goes to panic and by your photos, you are afraid to lean the bike. An exercise I recommend is for you to ride the track without any body position technique. Sit straight up and down and lean the bike in the corners. Sitting straight up and down on the bike will make it easier to relax your legs and body, and at the same time you will put trust in the tires. You will also get comfortable being on the side of the tire. Make sure you do this with GOOD tires and make sure they are up to temp - 2 laps. You'd be surprised how low you can lean the bike...

 

2) Hanging off the bike only works well at higher bike lean angles. That being said, you are not hanging off that much, but never-the-less expect it to be uncomfortable because when you hang off your body, you will feel like you are about to fall off the bike and you will need to use some muscles to stay locked on.

When you go faster, and you lean to about 45 degrees or more, you can hang off a ton and be very relaxed. Centrifugal force will suck you into the bike and it requires very little effort to hang off the bike and you can stay relaxed.

 

It gets better man! Keep up the good work!

 

Wow man, 60 TDs in 9 months? Thats like 2 TDs per week? Holy smokes, you going into racing? You are living a dream!

 

I think I get what your are saying. I was getting into more extreme lean angles towards end of that TD, and ended up dragging toe sliders, as well as curb feeler on the footpeg (this actually caused me to crash - no damage beyound scratched fairings). In fact I'm proud of myself of not cornering white-knuckled on the track despite going faster than ever before

 

What I think may be going on is that I'm trying to support most of my weight on legs since I dont trust suspension - this is a standard bike, suspension is not adjustable, and I have had several close calls with rough pavement in curves so am trying to compensate for that by not sitting down on the seat. Could that be it?

 

Peter

[Lnewqban]

............I still wonder what exactly 'too tight' means for legs... too much weight on legs? not enough on the seat?

 

Peter,

 

I don't know much, but the pictures show good positions.

 

One thing to consider: the forces related to weight that your legs feel while hanging off are the same while leaning in a turn or when seating in the bike on the rear stand in a vertical position.

 

The reason is that the vector force of your weight leans with the bike, regardless little or extreme lean angle or vertical.

 

What I am trying to say is that the act of cornering does not add any extra stress to the muscles of legs, weightwise.

Of course, there are the additional forces of aerodynamic drag on the inside leg, as well as the inertial forces associated to braking and accelerating.

[csmith12]

We race stock ninja 250's around Nelson Ledges track in OH all season long. The track is like the surface of the moon it's so bumpy. In fact, you just might see a orange cone on the tarmac to note a pothole. My last race weekend there, 5 cones were out in the back straight. lol Anyway.... the 250's in stock form does not have any front adjustable suspension and while it does help to use your legs to aid your suspension over bumps at pace, remember it's not a dirt bike. It could be logical that a rider would be tense and rigid, leading to fatigue over the course of a day.

 

Do you have a dirt riding background?

[YellowDuck]

This is an interesting question. I am often quite sore in the legs after a track day, but it is always in my quads - I figure this is just from lifting myself up and across the seat from one side to the other. All the other moderately out-of-shape middle-aged guys I track ride with report the same thing. None of us have ever been sore in the groin region (inner thighs) as the OP describes.

 

Logically, this different type of strain could come from squeezing the legs together to grip the tank. In general this is a good thing to do especially during hard braking, but it makes me wonder if in this case it is being overdone (eg, still gripping hard while on the straights) due to nerves / tension.

 

Usually when you are nervous you have tension through the arms and shoulders due to a death grip on the bars, and I think CSS prescribes the "chicken flap" (waving your elbows about like a chicken) to prove to yourself that your arms are relaxed. Maybe the OP needs to try the "thigh flap" on the straights?

[Steve Rutter]

This is an interesting question. I am often quite sore in the legs after a track day, but it is always in my quads - I figure this is just from lifting myself up and across the seat from one side to the other. All the other moderately out-of-shape middle-aged guys I track ride with report the same thing. None of us have ever been sore in the groin region (inner thighs) as the OP describes.

 

Logically, this different type of strain could come from squeezing the legs together to grip the tank. In general this is a good thing to do especially during hard braking, but it makes me wonder if in this case it is being overdone (eg, still gripping hard while on the straights) due to nerves / tension.

 

Usually when you are nervous you have tension through the arms and shoulders due to a death grip on the bars, and I think CSS prescribes the "chicken flap" (waving your elbows about like a chicken) to prove to yourself that your arms are relaxed. Maybe the OP needs to try the "thigh flap" on the straights?

 

It's interesting that you say that you lift yourself out of the seat, have you tried the knee to knee drill?

 

[YellowDuck]

This is an interesting question. I am often quite sore in the legs after a track day, but it is always in my quads - I figure this is just from lifting myself up and across the seat from one side to the other. All the other moderately out-of-shape middle-aged guys I track ride with report the same thing. None of us have ever been sore in the groin region (inner thighs) as the OP describes.

 

Logically, this different type of strain could come from squeezing the legs together to grip the tank. In general this is a good thing to do especially during hard braking, but it makes me wonder if in this case it is being overdone (eg, still gripping hard while on the straights) due to nerves / tension.

 

Usually when you are nervous you have tension through the arms and shoulders due to a death grip on the bars, and I think CSS prescribes the "chicken flap" (waving your elbows about like a chicken) to prove to yourself that your arms are relaxed. Maybe the OP needs to try the "thigh flap" on the straights?

 

It's interesting that you say that you lift yourself out of the seat, have you tried the knee to knee drill?

 

 

 

Nope....but I will now. Thanks for that.

[rootkit007]

This is an interesting question. I am often quite sore in the legs after a track day, but it is always in my quads - I figure this is just from lifting myself up and across the seat from one side to the other. All the other moderately out-of-shape middle-aged guys I track ride with report the same thing. None of us have ever been sore in the groin region (inner thighs) as the OP describes.

 

Logically, this different type of strain could come from squeezing the legs together to grip the tank. In general this is a good thing to do especially during hard braking, but it makes me wonder if in this case it is being overdone (eg, still gripping hard while on the straights) due to nerves / tension.

 

Usually when you are nervous you have tension through the arms and shoulders due to a death grip on the bars, and I think CSS prescribes the "chicken flap" (waving your elbows about like a chicken) to prove to yourself that your arms are relaxed. Maybe the OP needs to try the "thigh flap" on the straights?

 

Funny you should mention that. I find myself gripping tank most of the time even on straight road. Somehow I dont feel stable and have to transfer weight on my hands unless I am anchored to the tank.

 

I tried knee-to-knee drill and it indeed seems to alleviate the pressure on legs.

[aslcbr600]

No offense but in those pictures it doesn't look like you are going at decent pace, when you are trying to "over exaggerate" your body position to make a corner that you really don't need to use a lot of lean angle you are going to become fatigued way faster. When I started doing advanced riding schools level 1 was so slow but my legs were just on fire by the end of the day. Next time I went out there I bumped up to level 2 and I was still having the same issue.

 

I do a lot of cardio, mountain biking, bike machine, stair climber, basketball ect and thought I was just really in bad shape still stamina wise. As the day progressed the pace overall for the level 2 group got faster, then I talked to my on track coach and he told me when you are going slower you end up doing more work then you really need to do.

 

Then I picked up my pace even more and by the end of the day they bumped me to level 3 because I was just being held up too much in level 2.

[sukeshak]

From my personal experience... I felt the same way during my 1st track day on a tighter corner almost every lap. I was also hard pressed to find the answer...

 

Solution was very simple, "relax" and take a deep breath before the corner and it will go away...

Good luck!

[rootkit007]

Points taken. Granted, I was not going very fast that day relative to faster riders, even if it felt mighty fast to me. I have to stop putting so much weight on my legs and move some to the seat, guess this is part of the 'relaxation'

 

Plan on doing another TD soon, we'll see how it goes!

 

Peter