Why Wait For The Apex To Start Rolling-On?

[Lnewqban]

Chapter 5 of the ATOTW2 book states that getting the throttle cracked and rolling-on as soon as possible and smoothly should be our basic plan, at every turn.

It also explains that by doing so, we are not adding new and unwanted forces; instead, we reduce them all.

 

If that is true, why so many riders wait for the apex to start rolling on?

Many published personal videos of experienced track days riders show this pattern.

 

Is that correct for any specific situation or condition or is simply caused by a very strong SR trigger, which forces those riders to stay away from the gas before the apex?

[ktk_ace]

IMHO:

 

1)track (consistent and higher friction surface)

 

2) much better equipment (race grade suspension and tires/etc)

 

3) old habits die hard

 

4)race idling (usually much higher than road going idling + doesnt drop as fast)

[richard_m_h]

maybe they've read motovudu?

 

not really plugginh his stuff but he does do it differently

 

 

[aslcbr600]

I think people are just worried about sliding the rear or running wide...SR"s kicking in, I never hesitate to get right back to the gas. If you have good throttle control you can get back to the gas well before the apex.

[csmith12]

Seems that "as soon as possible" is a relative term. For me it's one of two conditions;

 

On Track: Back to the throttle after the entry speed is set via trail braking, especially true while racing.

On Street: Back to the throttle after steering is complete (entry speed set before turn in)

 

Most of the videos I watch match the first.

[Kevin Kane]

If you have good throttle control you can get back to the gas well before the apex.

If you have reached the lean angle necessary for the turn, I totally agree with this statement. I personally don't like what happens to me when I add some additional lean once I am back in the throttle, ergo a little caveat to my support.

Rain

[Hotfoot]

Here are some reasons I can think of:

1) Riders trying to run a protective line to prevent someone passing on the inside coming into a turn, so they try to carry a lot of entry speed into the turn and drag the brake (trail braking) all the way to the apex trying to get slowed down enough to make the turn.

 

2) Riders that see faster riders carrying more speed into the turn, so they try to brake later, which triggers SRs and/or interferes with quickturn so they end up hanging on the brake to get slowed down

 

3) Staring at the apex or inside of the corner. It's really hard to roll on the throttle if you are staring at the apex - if you aren't looking forward to where you want to go, it is mentally very difficult to make yourself roll on the gas.

 

4) Riders that want to "feel" the front tire going into the turn - this can ultimately overload the front tire but entering turns trailbraking and waiting until the apex to get on the throttle really "loads" the front which, to some riders, feels like the right thing to do.

 

5) SRs - if you go into a corner a little too fast for your personal comfort zone, it is INCREDIBLY hard to release the brake and roll on the throttle. Rider can get stuck in this pattern for a long time, because they TRY to enter the corners faster, but the instability and front tire overload (and possibly running wide) that is caused by late throttle application makes them feel like they are already at the limit of entry speed. Backing the entry speed off slightly and getting the throttle on earlier makes the bike SO much more stable, once they finally try it, it is a huge breakthrough and suddenly corner speed improves greatly.

[aslcbr600]

If you have good throttle control you can get back to the gas well before the apex.

If you have reached the lean angle necessary for the turn, I totally agree with this statement. I personally don't like what happens to me when I add some additional lean once I am back in the throttle, ergo a little caveat to my support.

Rain

 

 

If I need to adjust my lean angle while being on the gas I just hold that throttle position until the lean angle is adjusted and then it's back to the roll on, although I have found my throttle roll on to be a little too conservative so I need to work on that. Guess I just view smooth as "slow and easy" but it can be quicker while maintaining smoothness.

[Jasonzilla]

The more I trail brake, the longer it takes to get back on the throttle. I came up with TOTW books and the school, so when I'm not paying attention, I'll still get back on the throttle way before the apex.

 

Riders get very used to being lazy on the throttle when street riding. They don't understand Kamm's Circle as well as they should, and I'd argue that very few learn to take full advantage of this. Just learning and beginning to apply the throttle when leaned over is a huge hurdle to jump.

[EricG]

Actually, I think this comes down to something much simpler than most people think... I think the reason most people don't get on the throttle until the apex is basically the they don't want to commit until they 'see' the exit. Focusing on hitting the apex prevents them from seeing the exit point of the turn. So, instead of mentally planning their entire line through the turn, they go from focal point to focal point and develop a checklist, if you will... Entry point, check. Speed, check. Apex line, check. Apex hit, check. Now get on the throttle.

 

Seeing the entire line is what AToTW2 is all about, at least the second 1/2 of it. Turning in later let's us see the entire line, flattens that line, and lets us hit the checklist in one shot instead of piecemeal. Thus allowing us to hit the throttle much earlier.

 

To test this, take a critical look at how you drive your car. Just pay attention to what you do when hitting a turn and see if you you do similar things on your bike. Watch your line, entry speed, when you start accelerating, exit point, everything. And then watch other untrained drivers to see what they do. Betcha you'll find correlates between driving techniques and riding techniques in most people. We can't help it, we go with what we know. And it takes a lot of training to change that.

 

I learned to race cars back in the day on Mullholand Drive. Roadracing, not quarter miling. We're talking the late 70's here. I learned through bitter experience to down downshift and brake well before the turn, and start accelerating once the apex was hit. Over time, I learned I could start accelerating before I hit the apex, but only just before. And until I started applying AToTW2 techniques, that's exactly what I did on my bike, same line and everything. Though I'm trying to change that, I'm sure I'm still doing it wrong and hope that my upcoming level 1 class will help me sort this out.

[Lnewqban]

Thanks to all for your interesting points