Picking lines at a new track

[Jesse E]

Hey All –

I just finished levels 1 & 2 a week or so ago. I've done many track days over the years. My goal with CSS was to go back to some foundational training so that I can move beyond my current skill level. (Current: Slow intermediate.)

Taking to heart the lessons taught, the following rules seem to be logically recommended:

1. The best line is the "straightest" (i.e., greatest radius) path through a turn
2. Throttle doesn't get rolled on until we get to our intended line and lean angle (turn rate). 
   • I.E.: Throttle gets applied only once we are in a constant or increasing rate of turn (lean angle no longer increasing)
3. The sooner we get to our lean angle, the sooner we can get on the throttle
4. Interlinked (close) corners require entry and exit points which may be a compromise w/r/t the "ideal" line if the corners were not interlinked.

So far, do I have that all correct?

My question: Using the above rules, is there a more scientific way one could provisionally plan lines for a new (unknown) track?

 

 

 

[Jesse E]

12 minutes ago, Jesse E said:

Hey All –

I just finished levels 1 & 2 a week or so ago. I've done many track days over the years. My goal with CSS was to go back to some foundational training so that I can move beyond my current skill level. (Current: Slow intermediate.)

Taking to heart the lessons taught, the following rules seem to be logically recommended:

1. The best line is the "straightest" (i.e., greatest radius) path through a turn
2. Throttle doesn't get rolled on until we get to our intended line and lean angle (turn rate). 
   • I.E.: Throttle gets applied only once we are in a constant or increasing rate of turn (lean angle no longer increasing)
3. The sooner we get to our lean angle, the sooner we can get on the throttle
4. Interlinked (close) corners require entry and exit points which may be a compromise w/r/t the "ideal" line if the corners were not interlinked.

So far, do I have that all correct?

My question: Using the above rules, is there a more scientific way one could provisionally plan lines for a new (unknown) track?

 

 

 

 

To further elaborate, given the following section of track, how might I go about planning lines?

 

I do realize that the map tells you nothing about camber and elevation changes (of which there are a lot at this track). This is a track I've been to many times. I'm trying to take a fresh look at the track, taking into account lessons learned at CSS.

The reason I'm asking this: I really appreciated the more scientific methods taught in CSS 1&2. Lines on track, however, have always been taught in a sort of "Cargo Cult" manner: This is the line the fast riders use, so if you use this line you will be a fast rider. 

That's not very scientific. I get that in any physical activity there is a lot of intuitive thinking. I'm just looking for a fresh way to look at tracks, rather than start with "collective wisdom" which may be good, but also may be plain wrong.

Thanks!

[Jaybird180]

Cargo cult 🤣- a new term for me. Going to think on this a minute while someone with more experience and understanding chimes in.

[gpounce32768]

Given my recent Level 1 experience I think I'd be working on vision first.   Its super-easy for me to be paying lots more attention to the turn-point and where I'm immediately going than it is to note the turnpoint and look thru the apex/protoapex.    When I'm not looking as far thru the turn as I can I often find myself on an awkward line or in inconvenient lane position.   

That short section between turn 1 and turn 2 begs for a quick transition and seems a place where compromise occurs.  That turn 1 I'd open with turning in somewhere in the center or right of center to get around enough of the corner to maybe deepen the lean to at least trend towards the middle of the track to set up for turn 2.

 

[Jaybird180]

 Ame across this video during my entertainment time and thought it relevant to the question posed, and it got me curious…it’s about sim car racing but I learned something relevant for my next times at track

 

[yakaru]

On 5/15/2024 at 5:44 AM, Jesse E said:

The reason I'm asking this: I really appreciated the more scientific methods taught in CSS 1&2. Lines on track, however, have always been taught in a sort of "Cargo Cult" manner: This is the line the fast riders use, so if you use this line you will be a fast rider. 

That's not very scientific. I get that in any physical activity there is a lot of intuitive thinking. I'm just looking for a fresh way to look at tracks, rather than start with "collective wisdom" which may be good, but also may be plain wrong.

Thanks!

I'd like to just contribute a more general elaboration to this problem and the "common wisdom"

https://www.instagram.com/p/C46Vp29vNNd/

This post by CSS shows the Moto 3 bikes all 'off line' from the dark rubber put down by higher displacement machines. Picking the right line follows the general rules you stated but you also have to make compromises -- do you brake more to get a much straighter line on the exit (AKA "Point and Shoot") or do you try and favor not losing momentum. While this is a concern with any corner on any size bike the balance of the equation will change. For example, pointing and shooting into a corner that has another corner 50 feet after the apex doesn't have the payoff possibility that the same approach would have going onto a straightaway; and on my 250 there are corners I can take with an earlier apex since I won't be pushed to the outside like I would on a larger machine. In a similar vein, drawing a line on the track photo would both not be useful beyond conceptually (not using real reference points, etc.) but we'd have to know the scale and so forth in a way that can be made sense of.

So my recommendation is to be scientific. Literally. First, gather information -- go out for some laps and pick up some potential reference points. Try a turn point, then try earlier, or later, compare -- how does it flow visually? How's the entry? The exit? If you really want to be nerdy get a datalogger or lap timer. Because you're at a track you've got room to experiment. Play with the apex and exit line in a similar way. 

[MinyoungKo]

Hi, check/find your proper ‘turn point’, based on your bike displacement and the steering skill that you have. 

If you did your level 1 and 2, you will remember that according to the each track and turns, you need to try and find the best turn point for your optimal traction/suspension workability and etc. 

Please refer to the ToW II, chapter 18(page 80-83). 
 

You will be able to read on how to find the turn point and it will help you to prevent SR#6 Ineffective Steering. 

There is no magic formula that you can apply it to any unknown track turns but once you understand the principles of finding turn points, you will be confident on every turn. 
 

Good luck!

 

 

[Cobie Fair]

Good recommendations, all have valid points.  

Jesse, the 4 points you bring up are a good overview.  Also a valid point you make is this doesn't include camber or elevation, and any other anomalies in the track.  One point that you could add is--how many times do you want to turn the bike per turn?  Another point would be to put priority on the faster turns (that's in one of Twist books, anyone know where?).

A tool that can be used is time.  Time yourself, you can also time the top guys on a similar bike, see how you compare.  Breaking it down to smaller sections might also be fruitful.