Throttle On Mid Corner

[michael engel]

i have a habit of going into a corner too slow. Realizing that i can go faster, i roll on the throttle midway even when i am at my max lean angle. My 636 doesnt argue with me, wheel spin is minimal, if any, and the bike just takes a wider arch.

i know doing this on a more powerful bike can lead to disaster so is this a habit i should get out of now or can i get away with it as long as i am not too greedy on the gas?

 

if trailbraking can be done throw the corners, why not early throttle delivery?

 

for performance driving (which i also do) i tend to brake untill just after entry (minor trailbrake) and maintain speed untill i hit my apex then i accelerate. should i use this technique for riding as well?

[Kevin Kane]

i have a habit of going into a corner too slow. Realizing that i can go faster, i roll on the throttle midway even when i am at my max lean angle. My 636 doesnt argue with me, wheel spin is minimal, if any, and the bike just takes a wider arch.

i know doing this on a more powerful bike can lead to disaster so is this a habit i should get out of now or can i get away with it as long as i am not too greedy on the gas?

 

if trailbraking can be done throw the corners, why not early throttle delivery?

 

for performance driving (which i also do) i tend to brake untill just after entry (minor trailbrake) and maintain speed untill i hit my apex then i accelerate. should i use this technique for riding as well?

 

Michael,

 

There are so many ways to respond to your post that I'm not sure if I can do it justice, especialy since you don't say if you're referring to track riding or street riding. Regardless, my bet is that you have not read either Twist of the Wrist books or attended a Superbike School. Collectively they would answer your questions.

 

As for specifics, rather than tempt fate, why don't you focus on increasing turn entry speed, by say a mile an hour at a time? You're right about your rear wheel spin but at some point you might mis-judge it by just a little bit and it will be - see ya! As for adding throttle at max lean angle, I know from personal experience how quickly that can end your day.

 

For more detailed approach to increasing your corner speed, I would recommend talking to the School because that is what they are all about. You will learn that there are many factors that inhibit corner speed but there isn't enough space here (or the time) to cover them all.

 

Performance cornering (in a car I am assuming) is not comparable to motorcycles. Take a look at the collective contact patch area of a performace car and then look at a bike's - there is no comparison so by extension, your margin for error in exceeding a bike's ability to maintain grip is a fraction of a car's and one of the best reasons IMHO to learn how to corner a motorcycle from people who consider it an art.

 

Kevin

[michael engel]

i went to the december level I & II courses at infineon. i went back over my notes and remember that the point of quick turning was to quickly reach the max lean angle of the turn, at which the throttle can be reapplied lightly. im referring to track/backroad riding but i am unsure if my notes are correct or not.

thanks for the higher entry speed tip. that is something i need to practise on but im still getting that little pucker effect.

[Kevin Kane]

i went to the december level I & II courses at infineon. i went back over my notes and remember that the point of quick turning was to quickly reach the max lean angle of the turn, at which the throttle can be reapplied lightly. im referring to track/backroad riding but i am unsure if my notes are correct or not.

thanks for the higher entry speed tip. that is something i need to practise on but im still getting that little pucker effect.

 

Michael;

 

You're right about getting back on the throttle as soon as possible and that is a key component of the School's philosophy but you haven't mentioned the one thing that in my experience with the School was the single biggest factor in improving my own cornering; - Visual drills!

 

Mastering the visual drills had more to do with increasing my turn entry speed that any other factor I learned. Quick turn is important but IMHO, it doesn't address what you refer to as the "pucker effect" when cornering. The visual drills that are taught in level I & II (the two step and the wide view come to mind) are important because they give a rider the specific reference points needed to set turn entry speed. The two-step gives us the turn point and the apex, then it gives us the apex and the exit, from the exit up the track; the wide view gives us the ability to better sense our speed in relationship to the whole section of track we're on. Keeping a wide view supresses tunnel vision which can occur when we are searching for our current location; and as you know, tunnel vision amplifies one's sense of speed. Those work for me and I use them all the time on the street and on the track.

 

Kevin

[michael engel]

got it! going faster through the corner means higher entry speed.. higher entry speeds need better visual work. i was thinking that this was a throttle control issue. thanks for pointing me in the right direction kev.

 

 

but just a quick side question: do literbike riders apply the throttle midway or do they solely rely on entry speed and maybe some trailbraking to set their corner speed?

[Kevin Kane]

but just a quick side question: do literbike riders apply the throttle midway or do they solely rely on entry speed and maybe some trailbraking to set their corner speed?

 

You're on your own with that one Mate. ; )

 

Kevin

[Cobie Fair]

but just a quick side question: do literbike riders apply the throttle midway or do they solely rely on entry speed and maybe some trailbraking to set their corner speed?

 

 

Hi Michael,

 

There is a bit on this subject, more than can easily be answered (at least answered fully) here. If you have TWIST 2 handy, have a look at Chapter 4, page 20, "Line Follows Gas"...

 

Powerful bikes follow the same rules as other bikes, but have more potential for the exit speed.

 

One thing that you mention in your earlier post, is running wide in the turn: was that from good TC, or did you give it a little too much, or too early. Some riders turn the bike and roll the throttle on at the same time---that will make the bike run wide at turn in.

 

Let me know if this helps. I'll be gone all next week at the track back after that.

 

Best,

Cobie

[michael engel]

i usually dont run wide. What happens is i turn too hard for the corner (or i dont go into the corner with enough speed, however you want to look at it) so i apply the throttle to make my line wider and maintain my lean angle. When i need to tighten my line i just relax the throttle a bit. On a bad day i cant find the sweet spot and first apply too much throttle and overcorrect a slow entry speed then im forced to relax the throttle to tighten the line.

 

 

 

Ideally i would like to go into a corner at bonzai speed and hold the correct line while maintaining throttle proportional to the turn (by proportional i mean slowly apply throttle on increasing radius turns and slowing closing throttle on DR turns and maintaining a constant throttle for constant turns)

[harnois]

i usually dont run wide. What happens is i turn too hard for the corner (or i dont go into the corner with enough speed, however you want to look at it) so i apply the throttle to make my line wider and maintain my lean angle. When i need to tighten my line i just relax the throttle a bit. On a bad day i cant find the sweet spot and first apply too much throttle and overcorrect a slow entry speed then im forced to relax the throttle to tighten the line.

 

 

 

Ideally i would like to go into a corner at bonzai speed and hold the correct line while maintaining throttle proportional to the turn (by proportional i mean slowly apply throttle on increasing radius turns and slowing closing throttle on DR turns and maintaining a constant throttle for constant turns)

 

Sounds to me like you know exactly what you need to do, and you just need more track time to practice it.

 

What you describe above is basicaly a lack of smoothness. There was another thread on here where someone asks about what does it mean to be smooth, and Keith said it was about visual skills. So perhaps it is visual skills that you need to concentrate on. If you look at the apex of the turn the whole time as you approach the turn and as you enter the turn, then it should be a lot easier to judge when to turn in, how hard to turn in, how fast you can go at turn in, etc. Then after turn in keep looking up ahead around the turn as much as you can. This helps you to picture your whole line through the turn rather than seeing the turn as a bunch of separate peices. Your mid-turn adjustments should turn out to be smaller because you'll see what you need to do a lot sooner.

 

Your concept of adjusting your line by using the throttle is not necessarily wrong in my opinion. I think I do the same thing to some degree. But those adjustments should be very sublte, and as you get to know the track you are on better and refine your line more it should come down to practically no mid-turn adjusting, at which point you will have reach your goal of "bonzai speed" at entry and "the correct line." Of course you can not acheive that goal with out practice and slowly working up to it, but in my opinion concnetrating on visual skills would speed up your learning curve.

 

When I ride unfamiliar public roads with lots of blind turns I feel just like you describe above, because I can't really apply visual skills in that circumstance.

[racer]

If you look at the apex of the turn the whole time as you approach the turn and as you enter the turn, then it should be a lot easier to judge when to turn in, how hard to turn in, how fast you can go at turn in, etc.

 

 

When I attended the school, Keith taught a technique called "the two-step method" whereby a rider finds their pre-planned turn point as they approach a turn, and then look to their pre-planned apex at turn-in.

 

Step one: find your turn point while approaching the turn.

 

Step two: find your apex or next sub-product after reaching your turn point.

 

When I attended the school, instructors watched for an obvious head movement betwen these two steps.

 

 

I generally walk the track to help me choose RP's, sub-products and turn points. Sometimes these points need to be adjusted, but, many things are apparent while walking that are not obvious at speed.

 

 

Then after turn in keep looking up ahead around the turn as much as you can.

 

Again, when I attended the school, Keith taught students to look through to the exit of the turn (next sub-product) once they reached their planned apex.

 

 

The critical tool for enabling "visual skills" is adequate reference points to always know exactly where you are in your PLAN of sub-products, AND to be aware of these reference points without fixating on them.

 

Just like a frisbee or a thrown ball...you will go where you look. If you are unclear about where to look (plan) you are unclear about where you will go.

 

Think BEFORE you ride. Make a plan. Accomplish the mission. Think AFTER you ride. Make new plans as needed. REPEAT.

 

 

racer

[Cobie Fair]

Michael,

 

I can't do this real justice on the forum. I'd actually like to get you on the phone. We are leaving today for Miller, but I'll be back in the office on Friday.

 

There are a few fundamental pieces that aren't quite on the money, let's go over this and see if we can get it sorted.

 

Want to call on Friday? 800-530-3350. Or e-mail to set a specific time, that's even better. cobie@superbikeschool.com

 

Best,

Cobie