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Crash106

Clutchless Down Shifting?

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Hello All,

 

I understand "Powershifting" or clutchless UP shifting. But can I do a clutchless downshift on a regular strreet bike? On a bike with a slipper clutch? Or is it just a BAAAD idea? Thanks.

 

Best wishes,

Crash

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Hello All,

 

I understand "Powershifting" or clutchless UP shifting. But can I do a clutchless downshift on a regular strreet bike? On a bike with a slipper clutch? Or is it just a BAAAD idea? Thanks.

 

Best wishes,

Crash

 

Can you do it, yep, on both a bike with or without a slipper clutch, though, it's quite a bit trickier than upshifting. How do you do it? Same as an upshift really, slightly lift of the throttle and press or pull up your shift lever (depending on race of road shift). I often use it when I'm going moderately slowly, and briskly, but for full on race speeds, clutch all the way..

 

It's fun trying and it's not neccesarily bad for the bike, but timing and practice are key.

 

Bullet

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A bunch of coaches at the school do clutchless downshifts, I think Cobie is one of them?

 

Anyway, it takes a bit of practice but it can be done with or without a slipper clutch. It can be done at race pace as well. If done correctly it is no harder on the tranny then using the clutch.

 

My downshifting technique seems to change on a daily basis as of late :) but I used to do two clutchless downshifts on the Big Track at Willow Springs when entering turn nine. You don't really have to brake much for that turn, just roll off and down shift so I found it pretty easy to do clutchless downshifts there. Most other places I use the clutch.

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Cobie has mentioned it before. I'm not even going to try it. I'm focused on too many things right now. I'm trying to get back on the track March 7th. When summer gets here our season is over.

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I do it when the clutch cable snaps :D But it takes concentration and if you mess up - as we humans are unfortunately apt to do from time to time - it will put more stress on the tranny than if you at least partially disengage the clutch. But each to his or her own - if you can master it without thinking, keep doing it. If you do not care to learn it, there is nothing wrong with using the clutch - it is there for your convenience :)

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It took some adjustment but I found clutchless downshifting pretty easy. Its almost the same as clutched downshifting only you leave the clutch out of it. When you blip the throttle load is taken off of the transmission, when the transmission is unloaded then its easy to click the shift lever into the lower gear. It takes some adjustment to get the blip right and timing right but once you figure that out it feels just like a clutched downshift. When you get the timing right between the blip and shift it wont do any kind of damage to the transmission what so ever because at the moment you shift there is no strain on the transmission.

 

Personally on-road I like downshifting with the clutch, off-road I shift everywhere without the clutch. Its just personal preferance.

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it will put more stress on the tranny than if you at least partially disengage the clutch.

 

 

Another myth perpetuated by the internet and simply untrue.

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Okay Stuman,

 

Here's my perfect opportunity to be a smart-ass to keep all of us from being dumb-asses:

 

Tell us why we shouldn't believe the internet and instead believe 'some guy on the internet'?

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Okay Stuman,

 

Here's my perfect opportunity to be a smart-ass to keep all of us from being dumb-asses:

 

Tell us why we shouldn't believe the internet and instead believe 'some guy on the internet'?

 

 

Don't believe him then, go and try it for yourself... :lol: I mean, when, when, has StuMan ever given you duff info...? Hmmm? ;)

 

Bullet

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LOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOL

 

Just a little harmless banter Bullet.

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LOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOL

 

Just a little harmless banter Bullet.

 

 

Of course... it made me laugh... but your point was pretty valid, if you didn't know it had come from Stuman.

 

B

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Problem with "trying it" is that IF it's poor advice, the damage is done. AFAIK trannys aren't disposable yet.

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it will put more stress on the tranny than if you at least partially disengage the clutch.

 

 

Another myth perpetuated by the internet and simply untrue.

 

How convenient to omit the other half of the information in your quote. You should be a politician. Do you honestly belive a badly mismatched downshift without using the clutch will not cause greater stress on the gearbox than if you let a slipping clutch take up most of the shock?

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You can mess up a down shift with or without the clutch, either way your going to stress the trany, messing up a clutchless downshift would be no more damaging then if you miss timed your use of the clutch and jammed the bike down a gear without matching the revs.

 

Jaybird, the internet is full of misinformation, you have to decide who you choose to believe. My posts on this forum are simply my opinion, you can give as much or a little credence to them as you like.

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I guess you could miss your shift/clutch timing, but that probably doesn't happen very often. Most people are more likely to miss the rpm match when blipping the throttle. Let's say you need 12000 rpm for a smooth engagement of the next lower gear. If you pull the clutch and only blip to 8000 rpm before releasing the clutch, you will have a shock that will still be softened, especially since the gears are already engaged. If you hammer in the next lower gear with even moderately too few or too many revs, you will hear it very, very well because nothing gives.

 

Doing clutchless downshifting is fine if you master it, and it will be easy for some to learn, harder for others. Personally, there are other things I'd focus on before worrying about acquiring this skill. After all, most world champions have - and do - use the clutch on downshifts, so the practice cannot be considered completely debilitating ;)

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I don't think anyone is saying that using the clutch to downshift is "completely debilitating ".

 

What I and some others are saying is that doing clutchless downshifts isn't bad form either and that when done correctly it is no worse for the tranny then using the clutch.

 

I think there are some advantages to not using the clutch, one being that in many cases it can force your to do your downshifts later in the braking cycle. When using the clutch to downshift, many riders tend to do their downshifts to early and spin the motor to the moon. When doing clutchless downshifts you have to hold off on your downshifts a little longer so you can unload the tranny properly, this puts less stress on the motor.

 

In any case, it seems like the original poster is interested in learning this technique and I don't see the point in trying to persuade him not to do so. If it is not for you Eirik that is fine, but please understand there are many riders that visit this forum that have a pretty advanced skill set and some of these riders are willing to try a new technique and evaluate on their own if it benefits them. Clutchless downshifting might not benefit the original poster, but on the other hand it might.

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I understand "Powershifting" or clutchless UP shifting. But can I do a clutchless downshift on a regular strreet bike? On a bike with a slipper clutch?

Can you do it, yep, on both a bike with or without a slipper clutch, though, it's quite a bit trickier than upshifting. How do you do it? Same as an upshift really, slightly lift of the throttle and press or pull up your shift lever (depending on race of road shift). I often use it when I'm going moderately slowly, and briskly, but for full on race speeds, clutch all the way..

I'm a little confused by the description of the throttle action - are you slightly increasing or decreasing the revs, when it's time to do the downshift?

 

My normal action for a clutchless upshift is this:

1) apply pressure on the gear lever to select the next gear up

2) do a short but quick closing of the throttle to take the power off the tranny for a split-second - next gear will engage.

 

Where in the rev-range are you normally when you do a downshift? - you sure need to be far enough away from the rev limiter, for the engine revs not to bounce against it when the lower gear is engaged :)

 

 

Kai (gotta do something while I'm waiting for the snow to melt away)

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I'm a little confused by the description of the throttle action - are you slightly increasing or decreasing the revs, when it's time to do the downshift?

 

My normal action for a clutchless upshift is this:

1) apply pressure on the gear lever to select the next gear up

2) do a short but quick closing of the throttle to take the power off the tranny for a split-second - next gear will engage.

 

Where in the rev-range are you normally when you do a downshift? - you sure need to be far enough away from the rev limiter, for the engine revs not to bounce against it when the lower gear is engaged :)

 

 

Kai (gotta do something while I'm waiting for the snow to melt away)

 

Its just the opposite of clutchless upshifting. Decelerating puts load on the transmission (just like accelerating does) which on most bikes is enough to lock it in gear so you can't shift it. This means you need to slightly increase the throttle (a quick blip very similar to clutched downshifting) to unload the transmission which makes it easy to slide into the next gear.

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In any case, it seems like the original poster is interested in learning this technique and I don't see the point in trying to persuade him not to do so. If it is not for you Eirik that is fine, but please understand there are many riders that visit this forum that have a pretty advanced skill set and some of these riders are willing to try a new technique and evaluate on their own if it benefits them. Clutchless downshifting might not benefit the original poster, but on the other hand it might.

 

I cannot see anything I wrote that would contradict with your statements there?

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So, to do a cluthcless downshift, blip the throttle and kick down a gear. Right? The key being to time unloading the engine/transmission with making the downshift. I think I can handle that. Thanks.

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I post a copy from other related topic:

 

The cluchless downshift moved my mind and efford closer to the braking purpose: slow down to "target" entry speed with the brakes. Not the engine! At the "scrub off with the brakes", in lower revs, without having the engine spinning at the noisy redline or near it, it is much easier to perform an accurate cluchless dounshift. Hope that helps.

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You can mess up a down shift with or without the clutch, either way your going to stress the trany, messing up a clutchless downshift would be no more damaging then if you miss timed your use of the clutch and jammed the bike down a gear without matching the revs.

 

Jaybird, the web is full of misinformation, you have to decide who you choose to believe. My posts on this forum are simply my opinion, you can give as much or a little credence to them as you like.

 

I use clutchless downshifts all the time on the street and sometimes on the track. I've only done it on my own bikes (one of them has a slipper clutch), but on my bikes, if you don't have the RPMs matched, it simply won't shift. I have never felt or heard any indication of a "bad" clutchless downshift, it either goes smoothly and perfectly, or not at all. Do other bikes actually shift, badly, if you don't get the rpms right?

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I think it might go with enough force :) but that is a very good point Hotfoot, I think most times it won't even come out of gear if you don't do it right. Your right, it either works or it doesn't.

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I did have a few sloppy clutchless down shifts that felt like they wouldn't be good for the transmission. Whether it did any abnormal damage or not I can't say. Now that I'm thinking about it I've never heard of someone breaking a transmission on a modern sportbike and I've met quite a few people who would be more than capable of doing so if these trannys were weak in any way.

 

I did have one weird thing happen on the street. I did a clutchless dowshift to 3rd at fairly low rpms and it automatically slipped into 2nd a few seconds later just before I was going to shift anyway. I didn't even bump the lever but it was a nice smooth shift.

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