harnois

My evaluation of my own riding is that it fits that description. But from my perspective the issue is all about quick turning. A lot of turns only last 2 to 4 seconds. So if you don't get it leaned 100% instantly, there's just no time to find the edge. And so when riding around VIR North course, which has a lot of esses, I rarely even feel limited by traction. I feel limited because I know if I go faster I won't be able to turn the thing fast enough to keep it on the line, especially in high-speed esses. And that's not to say that my quick turning ability is not good, but no matter how good your technique or your bike setup, there's always a limit to how fast a given rider can flick his bike. And it's not just a matter of quickness but accuracy, because if we get too carried away we can flick it too far. During no brakes drills I work on quick turning and it helps a lot. As with any sport, to execute the moves with top level accuracy and quickness takes a huge amount of practice. And you've got to be able to accurately judge turn entry speeds. To run through the turn at the right speed to be on that edge, you've got to dedicate yourself to that speed from the beginning of the turn, and that also takes time to work up to without sending yourself into panic mode. And the harder you charge into the turn, the more pressure you are under to get that turn-in done quickly and accurately. It's not like you can just ease into the turn and then grab a bunch of throttle mid-turn to get up to the speed that would put you on the edge. It's not just a matter of having the guts to lean it lower - it doesn't do any good unless you've got the speed to go with it. It takes time to gradually increase ones turn entry speeds. Then consider that available traction is constantly changing due to dips and rises and bumpiness, and so imagine how much judgment it really takes to be able to ride that edge in all scenarios. That's what sets the pros apart in my opinion, they are able to run that edge at every moment around the track. As you get closer and closer to that edge, you've got to everything more smoothly, more quickly, and more accurately. It takes some serious practice time. Boneheads think they aught to be able to run on the ragged edge despite their lack of practice time and fundamental technique. The "falling out from under you" feeling that other posters are discussing here, to me is a sensation that only occurs when you suddenly jump passed the limit, like when you hit a patch of gravel. In the few moments I've had on the track where I felt I was really riding the edge but not going over it was a subtle drifting or shimmying feeling that did not really change the lean angle in a scary way. But I've only really felt this occasionally when cresting a rise or riding on a cooked rear tire, so its not like I have a lot of experience with it. But even a intentional power slide on a dirt bike doesn't feel to me like anything is falling out from under me. Although I don't think you will be able to put into words exactly how much traction is available or how you feel for it, I do think the fundamental techniques taught at the school help the rider approach that edge with more confidence and feel. For example, quick turning gets you to maximum lean quick, allowing more time to feel out the edge. Staying loose on the bars means that when the rear slides a bit you'll feel the bar naturally turn relative to the rest of the bike giving you more sense of what is happening. And better body position and being locked onto the bike facilitates that loose grip and the quick turning. And accelerating mildly throughout the turn balances the front to rear traction and increases stability which makes slides a lot less scary when they happen.

As you approach the turn, make a conscious effort to slide your butt back on the seat, and then off to the side for the hangoff, then move your shoulders down and out as you look through the turn. It's not just about getting lower to get that arm angle, you also gotta move back to get back behind the handlebars. Once turned in make a conscious effort to relax both arms. All the "conscious effort" and different positions means that you are going to feel awkward at first so you'll need to slow down to be able to focus on it. That's what worked for me. Moving back on the seat also helped me with locking my knee into the tank.

In the video description and the comments he says he locked up the brakes trying to avoid his buddy who had crashed in front of him. And he says in hindsight he would have been better off the swerve around instead of braking.

For public road riding, as you seem to be talking about... in my opinion based on 170,000+ miles of street riding experience, this is not a very good idea. I can't tell you the number of times I had big slips due to something slippery on the road that wasn't even visible. Gravel the same color and texture as the pavement is easy to miss at speed. Trucks spill their diesel fuel on roads all the time. If you are off throttle the front will step out big time in that circumstance. Slightly on throttle and both tires will slip less and equally and everything stays more stable and you are more likely to survive long enough to get back to better pavement, and it's less scary so less likely to induce that dangerous panic feeling. It's just all around safer to get back to gently on throttle as soon as possible after turning in, and set up your entry speed and line through the turns to facilitate this. I realize that there are an infinite number of scenarios and turns out there and none of us can stick to this rule 100%, but to adopt the general habit of being off-throttle half way through the turn is generally a significant risk increase. There are lots of turns on the track where I might go to the apex off-throttle but I try to avoid it on the street as much as possible. Something else about any front tire, with some wear they will get flat spots in the profile at your common lean angle. When you are riding at the lean angle that is on the flat spot, the contact patch is wider, and the bike may have a tendency to want to stand up in the corners, then you lean a bit lower, off the flat spot, the contact patch gets narrower, and suddenly it wants to fall in. This feels very much like the front end is sliding. I experienced this many times with all kinds of different bikes and tires, always fixed with a new front tire. ALSO, you mentioned decreasing front tire pressure, also try increasing it a few pounds, as I've found this alleviates some of this flat spot issue if that is what's going on. Usually going up to 36 on front tires is acceptable.

Don't have to wait for decades, the slipper clutch had already done that for bikes. Just like what DSG transmission and Nissan's SynchroRev Match did to the skill of heel & toe downshifting.... I hadn't heard of synchro-rev but I read about it and it sounds like it would be pretty fun in a car, or bike I guess! But screw the DSG, the synchro whatever, CVTs (continuously variable transmission), and the whole transmission altogether, plus clutches, torque converters, intricate valve trains, catalytic converters, and fuel injection systems... all a bunch of complicated expensive solutions to overcome the inherent flaws in combustion engines. And after all that, you still need a battery and an electric motor to bring the engine to life in the first place. People have gotten so used to these things that they take for granted how complicated it all is. And despite all the expensive and complicated emissions ######, they still end up causing smog in every city around the world. Electric engine: Attach engine to rear wheel with chain and sprockets, twist throttle to go! Max torque from zero rpms! Wheelie machine! No clutch, no shifting. Totally off-topic but just say'n, my little rant, hehe. Where is that magic battery.

I rode a KLR650 (also a tall heavy bike) with luggage and a passenger from Tennessee to Oregon on unpaved roads (trans america trail - transamtrail.com) with knobby-ish tires. So I can relate a lot to some of the sensations you describe. I have never been so happy to have such a solid understanding of countersteering. To add to the effects of the tall heavy bike and rearward weight bias, I also had to contend sometimes with deep sand, rocks, ditches, mud, ruts, marble-like gravel, off-camber trails, and steep switchbacks. And due to the weight easily overwhelming the suspension on rough trails, there was a lot of very slow speed riding where a lot of manual steering and balancing is involved. I think you are right that at very low speeds, you have to countersteer to make it lean then you have to manually turn the handlebar in the direction of the turn rather than wait for it to naturally go there. I also think you are right that in some circumstances the bike has a tendency to continually lean lower and lower even with no pressure on the bars, and you may have to apply some forward pressure on the outside bar to hold the lean. My suggestion is, and what worked for me: For slow speed manuevering, regardless of all the wonky sensations and whatever you are doing with the throttle, turn the handlebars however you need to turn them to make the bike balance and go where you need it to go. Do what you gotta do and don't try to analyze it terms of some standard rule. At more normal speeds where you do not have to manually balance, stay loose on the bars (the standard recommendation) to take advantage of the bikes inherent self-correcting steering. And if on loose surface, tune out all the wish washy stuff and just focus on keeping the bike traveling in the right direction by countersteering when necessary. You might also check advrider.com, a different forum that is all about the adventure riding, lots of guys on there doing crazy things on heavy bikes with luggage.

Are you talking about street or track here? I can't image why you'd do that on the track. Once a rider learns to downshift one gear at a time with the throttle blip, and has practiced it enough that it's second nature, it's pretty easy to put 3 of those motions in a row very close together. Whereas this other method you are suggesting has all kinds of attention-hogging drawbacks that are already clearly put forth in above linked article. But on the street only, I do in certain situations shift multiple gears up or down without engaging each gear. Why? Simply because it just doesn't matter that much how ya do it on the street at an easy pace, and there's such a huge rpm range in the bikes now plus the gears are so close together. It seems like quite a pointless waste of time and effort to shift 5 times between 0 and 60 when I can hit 60 in 1st gear! The bikes now are so overdone for street riding. In a couple decades we'll have powerful long-range electric bikes and this whole silly shifting business will be a thing of the past that only old guys remember, so what's the point in even worrying about it?

Here's the most extreme example I've seen: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z_kQWsvRAy8

H, It isn't the full 400+ lbs of weight that one has to hold. We are talking the times a rider has saved it, when it has just gone over the edge of traction, but the tires are still in contact with the ground. How much does one have to "hold" a correctly set up bike, when it is in the turn, and the bike is moving? AND let's not forget no lean angle change (otherwise the rider would have some pressure on the bars). Any of the physics guys up here have a an idea of how to calculate this? CF Yeah, it isn't the full 400 pounds. Even lifting a bike from a standstill is not the full 400 pounds, because we are leveraging it around the contact patches as a pivot. Normally when the tires have traction it doesn't require any force from the rider at all to hold it up. It's held up because gravity and inertia are balanced, and traction is providing the turning force. So once the traction goes away of course the balance is lost and it starts to fall. I get what yur say'n, the tires are on the edge, just starting to lose it, but still contributing somewhat to keeping the bike up and then you theoretically only have to provide that last little bit of force with your knee to bring it up. But it seems to me like when you grind your knee into the ground to try to save it, that would take downforce/weight (and thus traction) away from the tires. Just like when pegs drag the ground. And so grinding the knee into the ground could make the situation progressively worse instead of better. It seems it would also create some torque steer effect as your knee drags backward, trying to pull you off the bike, and twisting the bike as you try to hold on, further destabilizing the situation, but I dunno maybe the pucks are slick enough not to create this problem. Then again maybe that torque steer effect is part of what's pulling the front wheel back into line.

I keep thinking about how hard it is to hold up a bike when stopped if it gets leaned over too far, or how hard it is to pick up after a fall - it takes everything bit of muscle I've got plus a bit of technique to lift up a sportbike, and I can't do it while straddling the bike. So if a bike truly loses traction in a turn enough to cause a fall, that's what the rider would be faced with, 400 pounds of bike, and holding that up with their knee in an awkward position with no leverage? I'm still very skeptical, but maybe it's just something one has to experience to believe. Why couldn't it just be a temporary loss of traction, due to some surface or tire irregularity, and the traction comes back later because the surface or tire improves, or due to a throttle change, but the rider thinks they've done it with their knee? For example in the video, the detergent is there, then it's not, and the bike recovers, what's so unusual about that?

I'm skeptical that anyone can really save it on the knee. Even if the rider in the vid perceives to have done it, I'm skeptical. The forces and inertia involved are way to high to be overcome by our muscles pushing at awkward angles. Once a bike truly loses traction it travels in a straight line - think of a bike tumbling off the outside of a turn into the sand trap - straight line! The bike in that video travels in a steadily curved path, and doesn't look to me to necessarily reach any particularly unusual lean angle by Moto GP standards. You can see the front wheel turn in, and the rear wheel slide out, at the moment he rolls over the detergent, but from there, it oscillates a few times with each oscillation getting smaller as the bike regains its stability, which in my experience and observation is the normal behavior of a motorcycle recovering form an instability IF there is traction to work with. It's amazing that he stayed on the bike, stayed on the track, and apparently in the midst of all that also maintained decent throttle control! So I'm not at say'n it's not an awesome save!

The visual skills like the wide view, looking ahead, looking around the corners, etc, are all extremely useful when playing car or bike racing video games! And practicing it in the video game definitely transfers to real life riding. I find that the visual skills take constant practice and conscious effort in both the video game and in real life else I revert back to old habits. And yes in my car on the curvy backroads on the way to work, all the same visual stuff, looking through the turns, wide view looking for deer, plus working on getting on the throttle sooner, although it's a bit disappointing with an automatic - you know push the gas and 8 seconds later it finally gets its ass in the right gear and accelerating! haha. oh well it is a station wagon! And quick turning applies even in the car. And nothing like the 5 lane highway with stop lights going through my home town for practicing wide view.

Oh boy! The asking questions routine again! I've read the section in TOTW II, where it talks about pushing on the pegs and other parts of the bike to get leverage on the handlebars. Obviously you can't push on the bars unless you are bracing yourself against some other part of the bike. Where I find it most difficult to implement is the full transitions from one side to the other, where ya gotta make the hang off position change nearly simultaneously with the push on the bars, hard to be locked onto the bike in that scenario. I've messed with the goemetry/suspension a little here and there. So far I've never found it to make that much difference in steering feel. For the moment I'm convinced its overrated, but I've never had the help of an experienced suspension tuner. In the end it's always a compromise between one advantage and another, and no matter how light you get the steering, you'll always want to push as hard as possible to go as fast as possible in chicanes, and that will take as much physical effort as you can put into it. In other words, if your goal is to go as fast as possible, a quicker steering bike would allow you to go faster, not push less. If it were a magical setting that allows you to turn with so little effort, why are the pros tired after a race? Are they doing it wrong? Have the wrong settings? No, they're just going as fast as they can! Bike settings might make it easier at any given speed, but that then just allows you to push it to the next level, either way you've got to expend the effort. All I'm say'n is, while we can make some improvements in technique and suspension settings, in the end it will take some serious physical effort to go fast.

I'm struggling with this a lot too. Not so much entering a corner from a straight, no problem there, but in a high speed back and forth kind of section, and after lots of hard laps, I have gotten my arms to the point where they just give out and I end up going wide because I can't flick it fast enough. I agree with everyone else here about lowering the elbows and pushing forward and backward on the bars instead of up and down. Any pushing on the bars in an up and down direction is totally worthless and has no effect on the bike whatsoever. And I also think part of why I struggle has to do with technique. But that being said, if going through a section where you go back and forth between full left lean and full right lean several times in a row, and at a high speed, like 70mph or more, the harder you push on the bar, the faster you can make the transitions, and the faster you can flick it the faster you can go through that section. The harder you can push on the bar the better. In that kind of section that is where the majority of my attention is at, pushing as hard as possible at the right time. So although technique could be a big part of it, in the end it takes strength, and you would always want to push as hard as you can! So it seems to me that an improvement in technique won't make it any less effort, it'd just help you flick it faster and go faster. Riders who hit the track on a regular basis may not notice this so much, because they're conditioned. But for me, I get a few track days in the spring and a few in the fall usually, with lots of gap in between to lose the conditioning. I'm kindof a lightweight skinny guy too so maybe I notice this more than some generally heavier and stronger guys. I've started working out to build muscle and endurance so I can hopefully enjoy my next track days more. The faster you learn how to go the more strength you will need. It seems that most top pro racers work out, and they discuss being tired after a race, so I'm convinced that no matter how good the technique, going fast takes a lot of physical effort! fwiw here's a onboard video where a guy follows me around VIR North Course for a few laps: http://www.ncsportbikes.com/meanstrk/AdamHVIR.wmv The section where I have the trouble is right at the beginning of the vid, starting at about 0:20, a right hander turning up the hill, that's turn 7, no problem there, but then left for turn 8, right for turn 9, left for turn 10, right for turn 11 (I'm really in trouble sometimes by this point), then straight up to the top of the hill for a hard right hander, turn 14, which I have no problem with, you'll see a good quick flick there, but then there's a couple more hard transitions going down the hill, left from 14 into 15, and right from 16 into 17 (I get in a little trouble here too). You mentioned that it appears that others are not working hard, but when I watch this vid, it looks to me like I'm just cruis'n along in that section, not struggling at all, but I know that I was work'n my tail off on some of those transitions. But despite all the effort, in the vid some of those transitions don't look as fast as I'd like them to be. You might also notice how the guy with the camera catches me easily in the braking zones several times throughout the vid. I also tend not to push the braking points much either because that also wears me out. In the first 1:30 I'm on a worn rear tire and can't drive out of the right hand turns, and there's even a little bit of slippage and recovery in turn 1 (it's subtle), but you'll see I get better drive out of those turns in later laps after I got a better rear tire installed. I think my technique problem has to do specifically with the left to right or right to left transitions. Straight up to turning is no problem, because I can hang off first, get locked into the bike with my legs, and get good leverage on the bars that way. But with the left to right transitions, ya gotta go from left to right hangoff position at the same time or in very close timing with the push on the bars so I'm having to push while not locked into the bike. One more big point here. I realized during my last track days that one very big reason I was getting so tired is because I was forgetting to BREATH! Seriously. And I'd bet I'm not the only one! Pretty sure holding the breath is a pretty common human reaction to really intense situations. When I focused on ensuring that I was breathing it made a huge difference. At first, remembering to breath actually took up part of my $10 of attention span!

It's kindof a chicken and egg thing if you ask me. Is it best to ride the bike a certain way because it is designed to be ridden that way, or is the bike designed to be ridden a certain way because that's just the best way to ride it? To put it another way, if a bike had equally sized front and rear tires, would you ride it any differently? To me it seems the laws of physics dictate that it is best to accelerate through turns, and that the bike will spend more time on power than on brakes, and that its best to support more weight on the rear than on the front. Therefore, the bike is designed, with a larger rear tire and many other things, to work that way and be ridden that way. Therefore, since both the laws of physics and the bike's design are both dictating that it be ridden a certain way, it would be doubly stupid to ride it some other way and expect a better result. It starts with the laws of physics, not the bike's design. If it starts with the bike's design, why not design it with more weight on the front, a fatter front tire, smaller rear tire, and ride around the turns on the brakes all the time? Afterall, you'd still have the tires "loaded proportionally to the tire contact patch area."

I've done a lot of cross-country motorcycle traveling so dealt with my fair share of crosswinds. Seems to me that the important thing is to countersteer as necessary to counteract the wind, so you can stay in your lane, as you already seem to understand. In order to push on the handlebar with good force (countersteer) you have to brace yourself against some other parts of the bike, like the seat, tank, and pegs, and that's what the pushing on the pegs is all about. For me what works is I clamp onto the bike with my legs and turn the freak'n handlebar because that is what makes the difference, I don't get distracted with all this peg pushing. And like kawadude said stay low so the wind has less leverage against you.

Thanks for all the suggestions, guys! Keep it com'n. So regarding suspension, I was thinking, yeah like some have said I could raise the rear by reducing sag or by increasing ride height (the bike does have an Ohlins rear shock with the adjustable shock shaft length). I could lower the front by reducing the ride height (raising the forks in the triple clamps). I could also increase front sag which would make the fork springs softer at top out so maybe it would float a little better. And while jaybirds suggestion of reducing front rebound damping got a bit of flak, I can see where you're com'n from there, just to give it chance to stay on the pavement better, but that's if it's moving at all which it might not be if topped out. The idea of increasing rear compression damping - interesting idea! I can see how that could help by helping to keep the bike tipped forward on bumps. But all suspensions adjustments aside, there'll always be a way with a 750 (and a 600!) in lower gears to get the front too light, and getting to the front of the seat on exits therefore will be an advantage, right? And surely sitting at the back of the seat during braking is better? And sitting at the back of the seat for the turns seems better because I can lock into the tank with my knee better, can get better hang-off body position, better front/rear weight distribution for cornering, easier to transition left to right in the back and forth sections, more leverage for countersteering, etc. Surely, fast guys on 1000s are moving back for braking and turning but forward for exits, right? Although I notice some riders at the front of the seat in the turns, it always looks pretty awkward to me. The idea of using the foam behind my butt would be good if I were intending to stay at the front all the time. But the dilemma is that I want to be at the back during braking and in the turns but at the front on the exits, and how can I make the transition without upsetting the bike when the power is already on? Maybe it's just a matter of timing, like figuring out when to make the transition back to front, just after I start to stand it up a bit but before the power is full on.

Yeah if you can swing it that's definitely the way to go. It might be hard to find but you can get track bikes for some pretty surprisingly small amounts of money if you aren't super picky about having the latest model stuff. I just got a track bike for only $2400, it's a 2000 gsxr600 with a 2002 gsxr750 FI motor, an Ohlins rear shock, inverted forks from the 750, airtech track bodywork, it's a "looks great from 10 feet away" kind of bike. Not the latest equipment but a great trackday bike and the suspension is better than even the latest model stock bikes, and the power of the 750 still beats today's 600s.

I think if you suddenly go way past the limit you will fall without warning. If you gradually run into the traction limit, you'll get some warning, and theoretically have time to save it. This is why "riding smooth" is so important, cos if you're not, it's a lot more likely you'll jump really far passed the traction limit and really suddenly. And this is why it's important to take it easy on the street cos the oil and gravel that you might not always see can put you way past the limit way suddenly. I lowsided due to a front slide once on the track, my only crash ever so far on the track after 50 or 60 trackdays. It was poring down freak'n rain, just trying to survive really, was off throttle, which loads the front, was doing downhill, which loads the front, hit a dip, which loads the front, and hit a big patch of wet rubbery pavement, all at the same time. So needless to say this was one of those moments where I went way passed the traction limit very suddenly. I remember feeling confused for a couple seconds wondering why am I watching my bike slide across the pavement over there? Why am I sliding across the pavement? Am I crashing? When did this start? I lowsided on the street once due to a rear tire slide, at an intersection. The light turned green, I accelerated and turned left, forgetting all about the cold weather and the brand new not-broken-in rear tire, and so the ass end just swung right around on me, the bike slid on the frame slider clear across the intersection, didn't even scratch the fairing. Thankfully in both cases there was no ground-sky-ground-sky effect and I was not even slightly injured and the bike didn't fair too badly either. On the track I've had lots of subtle rear end slides, usually when the rear tire is warning me that it's time to be replaced, one too many heat cycles or whatever. These were not scary, happened as I got on the throttle smoothly in the turn and I just eased off the throttle. I could still keep riding the tire for the remainder of the session but could not get good drive out of the corners.

I've ridden similar style bikes with the higher handlebars. I have an SV650 for street use with those kind of bars. Then I have a gsxr750 dedicated track bike. And yeah I do think getting lower bars for track use would be beneficial, if you want to start hanging off. It is generally awkward in my opinion to try to get off the side and low with the bars up high like that, but you can do it. And, one very important thing about hanging off is doing it without supporting your own weight on the handlebars. This can be kinda challenging at first, and one thing I like to do to aid this is sortof hook my outside elbow into the edge of the tank. I don't think this would be possible with higher bars. You might consider some bars like these as a compromise: http://suburban-machinery.com/hbindex.htm not quite as low as clip-ons, but a lot lower than stock, and there's a couple options, one a little lower than the other.

I recently switched from a gsxr600 to a gsxr750. Not that I'm obsessed with power or anything, it's just that a good deal on a good 750 track bike came along, and hey it's something different. Now the 750 offers some new and interesting challenges, perhaps even more so because I only weight 155 pounds. In the turns I'm sitting on the back of the seat, which is fairly textbook stuff I believe, and it feels good, but as I gradually power up out of the turn I eventually get to a point where I'm full throttle, still a bit leaned over, and ... still sitting on the back of the seat! In smoother corner exits I can feel the front wheel skimming, no wieght on it, under full power in 3rd gear in the power band. On bumpy corner exists, it's bouncing all up in the air and twitching and generally scary! Not working. And there's other corner exists where even though I'm already full throttle, I also need to countersteer heavily, like entering "the snake" at VIR, and if I'm countersteering while the front wheel hits a bump and comes up, well, that's how tank slappers get started... So I need to get to the front of the seat on the corner exists, and when I did that all these problems went away. But the problem I have is figuring out at what point do I transition from back to front of the seat and how do I actually do it without upsetting the bike by yanking on the handlebars? I mean if I move forward early on during the exit, I'm still in the corner, don't really want to be moving around on the bike and mess'n with the handlebars at those lean angles, but if I wait until later, the power is already on big time, and the only way I can see to move forward is to pull myself forward with the handlebars, which seems like a really bad idea when the front is already light and it could introduce some unintentional countersteer and/or pull the front up.

I've been working on this lately, in my last few track days, after a coach mentioned it to me. And what works well for me now, after some practice.... I don't even look directly at the turn in mark on the pavement, ever. I just approach the turn looking at the apex. Having been around the turn many times before, I know the angle to approach the apex to give me the best exit. I just turn in when the angle is right. In my peripheral vision I can see I'm turning in right where the superbike school has put the yellow X, but I never look directly at that. In my observation this is way better because if you approaching the turn looking at the mark on the pavement for turn in, what visual information are you giving your brain to judge entry speed? That yellow X directly in front of you is not going to tell you a damn thing about how fast you can get around the turn. Looking at the apex I can judge not only the angle but also can I get to the apex from here at this speed? So my entry speeds go way up. After I turn in, I try to start looking up past the apex as soon as possible, and observe the apex pass in my peripheral vision. I definitely had to slow down just a little bit for a few sessions to get used to looking more ahead like this, but I worked on it during the school's "no brakes" drills. And when I went back to full speed after getting used to it, it was so much better, especially in combinations, cos you can kinda visually line up multiple apexes.

My impression is this: Rolling off the throttle in a turn doesn't really cause understeer or oversteer, but it does make the bike slow down, and if you are slowing down and maintaining your lean angle, then obviously you're going to end up turning sharper! The sensation that rolling off causes understeer, I think is because when riders roll-off they are panicking, and so they are simultaneously looking at the outside of the turn and tightening their grip on the bars and those are the things that cause the sensation of understeer (running wide). If you roll-off but stay loose and keep looking through the turn it's not so bad really. And my impression is that the "stabilizing throttle" does have a tendency to cause mild oversteer, but not in a negative way, just that the acceleration from the rear tire helps the bike around the turn, and not only because it stabilizes the bike and balances the front to rear traction demand, but also because it causes *torque steer*. When leaned around a right hand turn, all your weight is to the right of the point where the tires touch the ground (which is where the acceleration comes from), and therefore the acceleration from that rear tire *torque steers* the bike around the turn. It's like if you accelerated with only the left wheel in a car, it would veer to the right. This is just another reason why accelerating transfers some of the traction demand to the rear tire, or how the acceleration ends up transferring some of the cornering work to the rear tire - the rear tire pushing forward rotates the bike around in the direction of the turn, relieving the traction demand on the front tire. It's just the same as how accelerating rotates the bike up into a wheelie. This is just my own personal wacky theory, I don't know that I've ever seen it written or discussed anywhere, but doesn't it makes sense?

You are bring up 2 scenarios here regarding traction: the traction you need for quick-turning and the traction you need for actually going around the turn.... 1. When you are countersteering /quick-turning, the tires need traction for the purpose making your bike rotate into a lean. As long as they have *enough* traction to make this happen then you are fine, you don't need to find a way to get more, as long as you've got *enough*. In most cases you'll have way more than enough to make this happen, whether you are off-throttle, mildly on-throttle, or even mildly braking. Perahps *idealy* you wold be off-throttle, but you don't have to be, like between turn 4 and 5 at VIR North. I'm very familiar with this track, turn 5 can be taken slightly faster than turn 4 so it's natural to be accelerating during that transition from left to right, just like after turn 7 up tot turn 10, you can accelerate the whole way while simultaneously transitioning back and forth. Nobody goes off-throttle coming out of turns, unless slowing for the next sharper turn. The quick-turn is more for the turn entry, the exit is often not so quick and the lean angle change at the end of the turns often happens more slowly and when you are already well on throttle. The only time you really don't have *enough* traction to make a lean angle change is at maximum throttle in low gears when the front is skimming. And you'll see in MotoGP often the front wheel turning severly out of turns even though the bike keeps going straight and not changing lean angle. This is the due to the riders trying to countersteer but not having enough front traction to make the bike change lean angle (due to very heavy throttle). 2. When you are in the corner, the tires need traction for the purpose of actually making the bike travel in a curved path, to fight the inertia of the bike that makes it want to go straight. Totally different thing here. And in this case, there's no such thing as *enough*! Learning how to get more and use more is always a good thing! And the recommended throttle roll-on here you say is contradicting because it would reduce front traction... but you need 2 tires to get you around a turn! The point of the throttle roll-on is the balance the traction demand between the two tires for maximum cornering speed and stability. If you went through the turn off-throttle, you're likely to push the front, if you went through the turn with heavy throttle, you're more likely to slide the rear, but if you go through with that recommended gradual roll-on, you can get a better lean angle without either tire slipping. Rolling on the throttle might reduce front traction, but it also reduced the *demand* for front tire traction (this is like your term of how much traction do you "use up"), because now the rear tire is sharing more the work of getting you around the turn.

But don't ya think that your wrong line and lazy turn probably prevented you from being able to get on the throttle as soon as you should have?