mugget

Haha, it's always funny when someone says that. What's the definition of an accident, again? (People who "lay it down" don't avoid an accident - they create one!)

Yet they hold on hard enough that their hands blister and bleed. Enough so that Stoner pees on his hands to toughen the skin http://www.superbike...un/120605pp.htm Well I think I've heard it all now!! But thinking about the blisters... what other types of riding would regularly see blistered hands? Motocross/off road? But even then, is it worth trying to make that connection? Do we know if the blistered hands are common across all MotoGP riders? Maybe that agains is down to an individual style thing. It would be interesting to know if they really do use the handlebars to keep themselves on the bike, if so - that seems like a risky proposition to me! Or another possibility could be that they use a tight grip so their hands don't slip off, but keep their arms loose so as not to make unwanted inputs. The other thing to consider about the different riding styles is that the MotoGP bikes of today are probably much more predictable and stable than 500 GP machines for example (actually many riders have said as much, Rossi comes to mind). So when we see those photos of past 500 GP riders who seem to be crossed up on the bike, I would tend to think that one of their main goals is to stay as centred and close to the bike as possible so they can better respond to the bike bucking & weaving. Whereas we rarely see modern MotoGP bikes with a wheel out of line, so it's much more feasible to fully commit to an extreme hanging off style. But that can only be pushed so far, because the lean angles are consistently much greater, which means there's actually less room to hang off into. Even on modern sportbikes, it's not uncommon to see riders showing off by putting an elbow on the ground. The reasons for hanging off remain the same, but I think those could be some reasons between the differences from 500 GP to MotoGP for example.

YellowDuck, that seems like a common question... thinking back on my own experiences, believing that the throttle should be opened as soon as the steering input is complete may be why I had always been riding through an entire corner on the throttle! Literally opening the throttle as soon as my steering input was done. But that is really the slow way around, especially if you're using an early turn point (or just not using a late turn point), and as you say it presents a problem if you're running wide... turning is not really an option if you're on the throttle, and closing the throttle won't help the situation either. It's not really true to say that the throttle opening should happen immediately after the steering input. I think that's where much confusion comes from - the real understanding of just what "as soon as possible means". A question: does Twist II actually say anything about opening the throttle as soon as your steering input is made? In the case of opening the throttle, what is really meant by "as soon as possible"? Have a think about that, see what you can find. Once you've mulled it over it, I think that my post here will be very helpful: http://forums.superbikeschool.com/index.php?showtopic=3438&view=findpost&p=28083

Stoners BP (body position) produces better results...? I understand what you're saying, but I don't think there's any point in trying to emulate a certain riders BP in the hope of achieving a better result. Don't forget that Elias is a World Champion as well. What works for one rider may be completely inappropriate for another. It would seem to be far more beneficial to look at overall trends, understand the reason behind them, then try to achieve the same result in your own riding using which ever means are suitable for you. In a previous discussion here on the forums and interesting point was mentioned, that had to do with the reason for the recommendation of the "classic" BP, as opposed to something like Elias BP. The reason is that the majority of riders would have a real hard time riding like Elias without making unwanted inputs and hanging onto the 'bars to stabilise themselves on the bike. So it would seem that being "locked on" and having stability on the bike is one of the main factors that would dictate what BP a person could use. Obviously Elias, Stoner and others with an extreme riding style have found a way to use their style without using the 'bars to hold themselves on the bike, and without having their BP cause unwanted inputs.

For a little while I was semi-seriously considering buying a set of BST carbon fibre wheels. I have no doubt they would make a phenomenal difference to the way the bike handles. But in the end I decided against it because it's a lot of money, and that type of gain will always be available, no matter your current level of skill. The other thing I thought was that if everyone in the Australian Superbike (and probably many other countries national) series can do what they do on OEM wheels, well that just shows that the wheels are not really the limiting factor. As for the Twist quote on braking... good find Gr8Dane!

That's okay, you're allowed to be away every now and then. Riding Japan... well I was not too concerned because the guy's I were with could find their way around. Well at least one of them could read and speak broken Japanese (that's a requirement when hiring the bikes, at least one in the group must be able to read Japanese). It was all good until I got separated from them about 10 minutes after we set off... Could have been really bad, I didn't have international roaming on my mobile phone, no way to contact them (not even sure how to get back to our hotel either!) But I found them again, all was good. Great adventure, but not recommended in winter unless you're super-keen!

Put me in the "never ridden a bike with ABS category". (I initially expected to expect a discussion about stabilising your body during braking using your core abdominal muscles. ) I'll admit that I used to think of myself as a "real rider", a "riders rider" if you like. My idea of a real car is a TVR - no power steering, no ABS, just you and the car, 100% in your control. I had the same type of view when it came to motorcycles, but then I started to see that all the electronic aids to make the performance of modern motorcycles much more accessible. Also things like TC (traction control) and ABS are just there for the moments when we aren't up to the job. BTW I'd still love to drive a TVR, but I'm happy to have a car without electronic aids because they're different to bikes in that there's no risk of the car falling on it's side if you lock a wheel! The Aprilia RSV4 APRC SE (did I get those acronyms right?!) which is chock full of electronics is another bike that I'd be really interested to ride.

Nice analogy with the fly the plane/ride the bike example. I like that! While on the road, ride it as a road bike, when in the gravel, right it as an adventure bike! Adventure is defined as "taking inappropriate equipment to out of the way places", so taking your sportbike into the gravel classifies as adventure, right? I don't run off track very often, but did when I was at my CSS Level 1 day. I was pushing on trying to keep raising my corner entry speed, but ran into the gravel at "more" than 100km/h. The "relaxed/funky chicken" drill really paid dividends then, like you say stay loose on the 'bars. Didn't try to turn, didn't try to brake, just let the gravel slow it down (gravel traps at this particular track are designed to arrest V8 Supercars, after all). Don't forget to pull your clutch in, either (at least as you lose speed). Worth thinking about, because it can be easy to forget the simple things in a desperate moment. Additional point if you stop in gravel: don't try and ride out, you'll likely just dig the rear tyre deeper. Step off to the side of the bike and walk it out of the gravel, slip the clutch to avoid spinning the rear. (Kicking up dust won't help you, and won't do your air filter any favours either.) A question about locking the rear wheel - I can see how this could help if you're going slower, or nearly stopped (if you need extra slowing), but would that really be the best thing if you're going fast? The rear wheel provides the majority (all?) of the gyroscopic stability behind the steering head, if you remove that stability on the dirt you really don't have much left...? I've also seen people go all the way through the gravel and hit the wall. Not sure if the throttle was stuck, or if they decided to keep it pinned and ride through the gravel, but that's a bad plan in either case. Which brings up the very last desperate option - ditching the bike. The way I see it, if you're still going way too fast and running out of gravel trap, I would just get ready to go down, then turn the 'bars to bring the bike down. Better to fall down in the gravel than to ride head-first or slide into a wall? (Bonus points if you remember to hit the engine kill switch before doing this!)

I just got around to reading the article that you posted the link for Lnewqban (and others?) and found a really interesting point that could relate to a kind of drill or exercise to get comfortable with tyre squirm and traction. The Barriers To Improvement My question is - which part of the turn is safer? Is this referring to the area where you really start to consciously stand the bike up and get hard on the throttle? Of does the drive area off corners also include from the moment you crack open the throttle, even if that is near the apex or before? That area of hard drive off corners when the bike is coming up to near upright has probably always been my biggest weakness, I suppose it still is. I always felt that any type of squirm or slide there would be much larger (with potential for more serious negative consequences) because the acceleration force and speed are much greater. So I started to feel out tyre squirm/slide/traction closer to the apex, just when I start to crack on the throttle and I was much more comfortable with that. Especially with road tyres that were wearing/worn on the side, that squirm limit was much sooner, and much more accessible to me with my then skill level. (I am not talking about knee-down lean angles, probably something similar to what's shown in my avatar, although that was taken over a year ago before I had been to CSS.) Anyway, it's only recently that I've been confident to start pushing more on the hard drive out of corners. Working on my vision has helped a lot there, but I also realised that I'm much more comfortable with the squirm/slide feeling as a result of those early throttle, mid-corner squirms. Reading the article linked above, especially that quoted section just made me wonder if I had gone about this backwards? And what would be the best recommendation for someone to start to feel out the tyre squirm & slide area of traction? At slower speed mid-corner? Or higher speed at corner exit?

Just saw this photo... maybe I spoke too soon about Leon Camier. RSV4 may not be the best fit for tall people after all, eh? Leon Camier by snmeets, on Flickr

Ah yes, that is true, just what the book says! As soon as possible does not mean the apex, right before or right after the apex, or any other particular point in the corner. (Ref: TOTW II Ch. 5 - Get It On.) But is it possible that it is actually put differently to students at the schools? Because I could have sworn that it was, that was one thing that stuck in my mind after Level 1, to get on the throttle as soon as possible when you know you will reach your apex. In any case it seems that it would be a significant factor - whether or not you were sure of making your apex? No point in opening the throttle if you've made your steering input, but still need to stay on your current line to make the apex, opening the throttle then would just send you wide. And that's not to say that you're waiting until too late in the corner. Just like with the Two Step, you look into the corner once you know you will hit your turn point (not as you hit your turn point, but before). The same is true of the throttle - you open it when you know you will reach your apex (not when you have reached your apex, but before).

I don't think that's his front tyre (more likely bodywork or other parts), the shadow doesn't seem to match up if that's a front tyre... If I'm wrong and the front tyre really is off the ground, I'll just pull out of this conversation because that is way above my pay grade!

Hey Warthog, I do get what you're saying about finding your limits before you go for coaching, but Carey makes some good points there. Actually that's pretty much exactly what I did, I went for years without any proper training. But that can work against you, because as a new rider you're likely at the stage where you don't know what you don't know (if that makes sense). At least that's how I was! Then I started to do some other types of rider training and slowly got a better picture of the things I still didn't know about. CSS was the most recent training I took, that was earlier this year and it's made the biggest difference, probably more than the other 4 or 5 other training days with other organisations combined! Also if you have training early on you'll be getting a good base to build on. Much less chance that bad habits will develop. I like to think of it this way - say you know a guy who has been riding for 20 years, but has never had any training and has some pretty bad habits and regularly puts himself in danger. Some people would say that he has 20 years of riding experience. I wouldn't. The way I see it, that person has 20 years of bad experience. Basically if you can make a bike go forwards, stop, and can turn it left and right, you qualify for CSS! I think you would be quite impressed with the noticeable and immediate improvement in your riding. It's definitely a worthy goal to aim for.

Haha, random! I don't think they'd be allowed on track with panniers in Australia. They always make people remove luggage and racks etc. Most random I've seen... the most recent one that stands out in my mind is an XR400 dirt bike converted to motard. It just looked funky with the rubber boots on the forks. Never seen any tourers or cruisers on track days... have seen some old cafe racer style bikes, not my cup of tea though, too slow and no right to be that loud when they're going that slow! Actually the old bikes are a bit of a worry, the ones that look like any part could fall off or break are the ones that usually do...

Now seems like a good time to tackle this question as well... I'm curious to know where this is going.... It depends what you mean by "coasting". Normally being off the throttle on my bike (large displacment twin running at high rpm) means major engine braking and therefore decceleration, even without brakes. That would be a weird way to go through a corner, but I have done it for a bit when I thought I was in too hot, and it is okay. Not pleasant when I get back on the throttle and the chassis attitude rocks backwards suddenly - but at that point I wold be applying the throttle pretty gently, having already blown the corner. If by "coasting" you mean neutral throttle, then yes, I do that alot, especially on long slow corners and it is very comfortable. If by "coasting" you mean freewheeling (i.e., clutch pulled in or bike accidentally in a false neutal or something), no that would really spook me. Without the engine engaged with the drive train I am kind of lost and nothing feels right. For example, hitting a flase neutral while gearing down for a corner is pretty terrifying. To explain where I'm coming from with this, and how it's helped me I will just start off with a story about myself. For a long while, maybe 3 or 4 years of street riding and track riding (hey - it's a long time to me!) I would always enter a corner and carry throttle most of the way through. Not using the CSS method (I just want to be clear that what follows is incredibly bad technique), I would actually turn, then accelerate through the entire corner! Combined with my old lazy steering ways, it's no wonder I didn't improve for so long, right? I had got the idea in my head somehow that I needed to be using some throttle otherwise I would risk overloading the front tyre and lowsiding. The brainwave came on the same day as I was doing track day tuition (a great way to learn a new circuit as well, most regular track-goers wouldn't get a chance to do a track walk, but that helps), I was having real trouble with a double apex corner. I spoke with the coach about it and told him what I was doing, he suggested that I try leaving the throttle closed and entering the corner faster, then either leaving the throttle closed or rolling it off for the 2nd apex. I asked about the risk of overloading the front tyre and he said there's no risk at all, the idea that you must carry some throttle through the corner is completely false. There are different reasons why that used to be done, mainly revolving around two strokes and needing to keep their throttles open otherwise the on/off was too abrupt. But I have no idea how I picked up that idea. I tried that, and it made a massive difference just knowing that I can turn a bike into a corner and leave the throttle alone and it will look after itself, there's nothing else that needs doing to "maintain traction" or anything like that. So what I mean about coasting is just using zero brakes, zero throttle (not neutral throttle, but actually closed - no throttle input at all) and turning into a corner. You can coast through an entire corner without worrying about traction (just that your exit speed will be slow). And this does agree with the "CSS method" which goes something like this: Close throttle > apply brakes > release brakes > turn > spot apex & exit > open throttle. Notice how during the "turn" part there is no mention of using brakes or throttle. That's one thing that just didn't connect in my mind. Coasting like that does introduce some more variables because you will find yourself on a tightening line (same lean angle with decreasing speed = a tighter line the longer you stay off the throttle). But to take it a step further you can also use that to your advantage, for example on a double apex corner I will usually choose to enter with a much higher speed and a much later turn point, it may appear as if I'm going to run wide, but I just stay off the throttle, keep the same lean angle (making no additional steering inputs is important) and then cut back to the 2nd apex. It helped my confidence alot to know that if I just stay off the throttle while in a corner I can tighten my line and position myself and the bike that way, no need to try and use the brakes to slow down and make a second attempt at steering if I'm heading a bit wide, just stay off the throttle and I can pull it back. Anyway, the big point to this is that you can turn into a corner carrying as much speed as you like, you can turn in as quick as you like and you'll have practically no legitimate concern that the front will lose grip - IF you stay off the brakes and off the throttle, and stick to the rule of one steering input per turn. The front tyre absolutely has enough grip to handle it. An interesting side point - if you did manage to develop your "quick flick" to such a high level that the tyre broke traction, it would actually be the rear tyre that slides before the front does. Another interesting thing that happens is that if you have made your steering input and are leaned over, then relax your hands on the 'bars, really just resting your hands there, not holding on (because you don't want to accidentally make any additional inputs there, if the front wheel does deflect a bit because of a bump it's usually best to just let it correct itself) it will improve your feel for the tyres & traction a whole lot. In your case YellowDuck you would need to factor in your extra engine braking, if you do decide to try that maybe consider using a higher gear so the on throttle action isn't so jerky and the engine braking effect is less? If you're currently riding through corners with neutral throttle, you'll notice that if you coast you will be able to increase your entry speed and move your turn point later, maybe by a fair margin. The very act of turning, combined with the engine braking will mean there's a noticeable speed difference from the point where you turn in, until you get back on the throttle again. But that's what will allow the later turn point and higher entry speed - for example my speed at turn-in is way too much for each corner, but by the time I've turned and have set my lean angle (and coast a bit if required), the speed is reduced to a level appropriate for the corner. I just mention that so you can start to get an idea of what to expect, but if you try it out for yourself you'll discover that anyway!

Just highlighting this paragraph as you do contravene the throttle rule in that respect, you say that you can't add brakes or throttle at maximum lean and that might be a bit misleading, as it goes against the teaching of cracking on the throttle as soon as possible after your turning input is complete. Once you've turned and got to that maximum lean angle, you ideally want to be adding throttle at that point, not a massive amount and certainly not enough to overwhelm the tyres, but certainly enough to load the rear tyre and get the suspension working in that optimum range. I was wondering if anyone would pick up on that... (I did think about adding a bit of a clarification there, but I can do that now.) Obviously it is also possible to turn with the throttle on the stop, but to a very limited degree, and not very effectively compared with having the throttle closed. The same is true when cornering, you can add brakes or throttle, but to a very limited degree compared to when the bike is upright. The reason I originally worded it like that was to get across the idea that if you separate the braking and accelerating forces from cornering, you can be 100% confident that you will have enough traction when cornering. You have no concern that you may exceed 100%, except by leaning too far, but in that case you'll feel it as you enter that "sliding friction" zone. There's not much of a chance that will be as sudden as a slide caused by the brakes or throttle. (At least that is how I see it, someone tell me if I'm wrong!) So... maximum lean angle = maximum traction being used? At first I started to think that yes maybe I'd jumped to a big assumption, but thinking about it more... I still believe that statement is true. Although when I say "maximum lean angle" I really am talking about an absolute maximum, the image in my mind involves very (very) high speed and elbow on the ground type of cornering. (Not to be confused with a rider's maximum lean angle, or maximum comfort level.) If a rider is able to use any amount of trail braking or throttle, can you really say they're using maximum lean angle? Clearly it would be possible to remove the braking/acceleration force and lean/corner even faster. So using that logic we can say that unless a rider is on the verge of (or actually is) sliding due to cornering forces (no brakes and no throttle), then they're not using maximum lean/maximum traction. BUT that's just my view on it, it makes perfect sense to me... what does everyone think? Also cracking the throttle as soon as possible after turning (or more accurately, as soon as you know that you will reach your apex), will not always happen when the bike is at maximum lean. I usually find myself at my maximum lean for a very short amount of time (compared to when I used to turn "lazily"), by the time I'm approaching my apex I'm already standing the bike up. But that also has a lot to do with entry speed and steering rate etc... But riding that way is probably another main reason why my cornering confidence has increased so much.

Well Moto Guzzi were crazy enough to put an engine sideways into a motorcycle, so why not? Is there some joke there about Guzzisti being the only people who require an emergency brake?

Great to see! Never to young to start.

Hi Warthog, That's not a dumb question at all. Tires do make a big difference. For example I have used a touring tyre on the rear of my bike for commuting, I had it sitting around for a while so it was old, definitely not in the best condition. Riding in the dry it always felt like I was riding on a wet road whenever I tipped into a corner. Compared to a new sports tire that just felt normal, there was a big difference. But in your case of wondering how much lean you can use, I'm not sure that tires are playing quite as much of a role as you may think. Consider this - if you are wondering how much lean angle you can use on your current tyres, would changing to a track-oriented tire or slick tires change that? My suggestion would be that the uncertainty is caused by a lack of confidence which could be improved through rider training (knowing that you're making all the right inputs, and none of the wrong ones goes a long way towards helping) and gaining a better understanding of traction. If you can make it to CSS, doing the School will make a big difference to your cornering confidence. I definitely experienced that myself and I'm sure many others here will say the same. In the mean time there's an interesting thread here on the subject of learning to trust your tires: http://forums.superbikeschool.com/index.php?showtopic=3438&st=0 I also make a post there where I mentioned some things that have helped my cornering confidence: http://forums.superbikeschool.com/index.php?showtopic=3438&view=findpost&p=27968 If you do have old tires that have started to show that oily look on the surface, you could try sanding them back a little, but depending on how far spread that look is they could be toast and it could be very risky to ride on them. If your tires are down on the wear indicators you should really replace them as well, especially for street riding as your wet weather traction will be severely compromised (not to mention you could get a vehicle defect ticket for that). I hope that helps a bit. Stick around and keep asking questions! Cheers, Conrad

Although in some cases it is really amazing how far the machinery has advanced. Just catching up on the weekends Moto2 race and the commentators mentioned an interesting fact - Marquez qualifying time at Catalunya was faster than any 500 GP race lap time at Catalunya (which is held by Rossi). That's comparing race tyres to race tyres, since Moto2 don't use qualifying tyres.

Hi Mike, Great to hear that you had a good day out at CSS. It's funny how a person can be riding for years and years, thinking that they're very competent - but without even having a clue of how much they still don't know. At least that was very true in my case! It just goes to show how much improvement there can be for a person of any age and any riding experience. As far as keeping yourself in check on the street... Well a while back I was riding my Gixxer home from work in the afternoon and I was thinking about an upcoming track day, I got a bit excited and gave it a bit of a squirt exiting a roundabout. A few hundred meters down the road I found that a police officer decided to put on a light show for me. Anyways he just asked if I'd been in trouble with police before, then reminded me that the road is not a race track and that speeding fines are very expensive. That reminder was all that I needed and in the years or so since then it's not surprising that I have kept myself well in check! Cheers, Conrad

Can I add one? This is a more recent video, the bike is an old 2005 R1, purchased & rebuilt after a crash with some choice mods and adjusted for ergonomics over a 20km lap, but it is still 100% street legal. No engine mods, power improvements at all. The lap is 7m 10s, which converts to around 7m 28s "full". And what's even more impressive is that this lap was done with traffic! (And quite a bit of traffic as well.) Pretty impressive video with the RC30. I noticed there's also traffic there. I didn't re-watch all the ZX-10R video, but from memory I don't think there was any traffic, looked like a clear track for that lap? I guess these videos just go to show that the basics of motorcycling really haven't changed. It's still the nut behind the 'bars that makes the biggest difference.

Haha. Yes I think it's safe to say that I'm a lifelong sport bike kind of guy as well. I once had a Kawasaki Z750 for a little while... but that didn't even last a year before I traded it on another sport bike! Ever since I have always had a sport bike in the garage. So you have your off road and dual sport requirements covered... it's only logical that you cover your sport bike needs as well. Welcome to the forum BTW, cya 'round!

Glad to hear that YellowDuck! Great if you can fit some different tyres, just start off nice & steady and gradually push a bit more. Don't be worried about using a street tyre either, the Power Pure's are rated for 70% street, 30% track. Definitely a competent tyre, not "dangerous" at all for track riding, but the point was that their limit was much lower, and much easier for me to find. One other thing to keep in mind - if you're going out with the aim of finding the limits of a tyre, you should expect a bit of movement or sliding. Just keep it in mind, accept that you may (or probably will) have a slide. If you do that it will be hard to be totally surprised by it (you can't really be surprised by something that you're expecting ). One other thing that I found helpful, this was a bit of advice given by a racer who had been coaching me for a day. I asked about how to go faster without going over the limit, he said to watch for warnings from the tyres. The tyres will always give you a little slide-&-grip, a little wiggle, or some movement in the suspension, tying the chassis in knots etc., before they let go into a big slide (unless you add a lot of brakes or throttle). That ties in with the "traction zones", but it's just another physical sign that you can look for to know whether you're approaching the limit. The question of tyre side grip... I can't remember exactly where I read it, but that was basically what was said word for word (that tyres have more grip on the sides, shame I can't remember where I saw it...). But to add a bit more info - most people believe (or imagine) that when they lean over onto the side of the tyre that there will be less rubber on the ground. This is not true! As the bike leans and the tyre moves onto the edge it will actually deform and create a larger contact patch compared to what you have when the bike is upright. For me that's the really important point that I can use to increase my "lean faith". Knowing that there's plenty of rubber on the ground when leant over. Just think about the forces you can put through a tyre when accelerating or braking hard. You can put just the same type of hard corning force through a tyre when leant right over. There's not as much traction on the side compared to the centre of the tyre? I would disagree... when I started to experience cornering G-forces I could see that more clearly. I think those cornering forces are very similar to hard acceleration & braking forces. Definitely different - but I would say that the level/type of force is very similar. I think that's where some people get into a bit of a muddle when they start to try and mix those different forces. Yes a tyre only has limited grip (100%). You cannot add brakes or throttle while at maximum lean any more than you could turn the bike while accelerating with the throttle wound flat out! When the tyre is only needing to handle the cornering forces, it's completely fine. Just as safe and secure as if you're upright with the throttle wound to the stop. But if you try and ask it to do more by applying brakes or adding throttle (in other words, asking the tyres to work at 101%) that's all it takes to create a little slide and maybe crash. That is why the pick up drill is a great one for getting onto the throttle ASAP, because hard cornering and hard accelerating forces do not mix well together. Also there's been a fair bit of discussion here around Contact Patch Vs Grip if anyone is interested in that subject: http://forums.superb...?showtopic=3231

mblaster makes a good point about the trail braking... especially given that you're unsure about the grip of the tyres, adding in braking forces while cornering is another thing that will use your attention. By leaving the braking separate from cornering you're eliminating one of the most common causes of crashes. Okay one more question for you YellowDuck - do you feel that you either need to be on the brakes or on the throttle while you're cornering, or would you be completely happy to coast through a corner without touching the brakes or the throttle?