mugget

Just watching the weekends WSBK races (bit of a spoiler alert coming up...) and it made me think of an interesting point... Don't say I didn't give a proper spoiler warning... You may not want to continue reading if you plan to watch the Donington WSBK races... Okay so in the first lap, first corner during WSBK race 2, there was a bit of kerfuffle that ended with a couple of riders going down. It looked like Laverty had to slow down a bit, but then Checa was too close and ran into Laverty's rear tyre, causing his Ducati to become very tired and in need of an instant lay down... unfortunately taking Guiliano (I think?) with him. We've probably all seen that before and know that the person who is unfortunate enough to contact their front wheel into someone else, usually comes off second best. The commentators noted this but then also added that this was due to more weight being on the rear tyre. Which got me thinking - is this actually true, or are there more factors at play? So let's say that someone is riding the corner ideally, in that case they would have more weight on the rear tyre. But I am also thinking that the front wheel is a lot more unstable than the rear simply because the front wheel can change angle/direction, whereas the rear wheel is locked in and cannot change angle/direction relative to the bike. To put it into a usable context - if you're mid-pack amongst a group of riders and your gap to the bike in front is decreasing and/or the gap to the bike behind is decreasing, is it better for you to bump your front wheel on the bike in front, or to slow down and bump your rear wheel on the front wheel of the bike behind you? I am going with rear wheel, reason being that if your front wheel is bumped it can instantly change angle and you can lose traction. But then if it's the weight on the rear wheel that helps, would it be possible to add more weight to the front wheel before you bumped it, to increase your chances of staying upright? If it's a completely nonsense question, just let me know. I haven't been for a proper ride for a week, worked through the weekend and so my mind just goes into overdrive thinking about riding whenever I can't actually ride. Cheers

That is good to know!

Cheers Hotfoot! Great stuff, definitely answered my questions. Just like having a personal cornering tutor. I am going to read through all of Twist II again, looking up those couple of chapters you mentioned it seems like I have a much better understanding of everything in the book now that I've done Level 1. I will probably pick up on a few things that I missed previously.

For some reason your diagram wasn't loading properly for me, but I went searching for some images of the new R1 and from what I can see the tank does look a bit tricky... as if it just tapers from the bottom to the top with no cutouts? At least they really don't stand out in photos... If you can't move your rearsets to adjust your knee position, maybe worth considering adding a little bit of a foam stopper (or similar) above your knee position to give you something to lock into? Or can you play around with your body position, maybe moving where you sit to give your knee a better angle to 'point' into the tank? That's a strange one though. Never noticed that on the R1 before, seems like a really strange way to build a tank!

I think I get what you're saying - there's so many different aspects to riding that sometimes you've just gotta take a step back, sit down and think something through. I can definitely see how that could be beneficial and improve someone as a rider, but you won't actually see the benefit until the next time you go for a ride and try it out. Practice is practice, thinking is thinking... but for sure, you can't really do one without the other! Fair point Releeuw46 - everyone has different goals and there's no point in pushing the 'practice' side of things to a point where riding becomes so onerous that you no longer have joy in it.

Well, never say never, you could always become "jack of all trades, master of one". Good point about track days. That's one thing that changed so much with how I approach track days. Used to just be that I went out to them with the aim of "going faster", but now I have specific points to work on each time. But that requires much more concentration... is it possible for concentration to cause bloodshot eyes? I felt good, but somehow managed to finish those two days with fairly bloodshot eyes. Another thing that really stood out to me on my recent track days - if you don't go out with your own plan, and you end up just following everyone else around, you'll be really screwed. I took notice of the turn points that different people were using, and for the most part they all turned way way too early. For someone who didn't know better - they would go out there and just follow other people and try to "find the line" or "learn the racing line" - and they'd end up learning the slow way around! A funny thing - I overheard a bunch of guys that were pitted next to me, at the end of the day they were raving to each other, all excited about how they're scraping knees and boots and everything else (as if that were a measure of speed or skill). Mind you, they were in a slower group. It was an interesting insight into the mind of an enthusiast track day rider. Meanwhile I'm yet to scrape a knee or even use my rear tyre to the edges, but I have moved into a faster group, poor me. Call me old fashioned, but I just think that going fast is fun.

Hmmm... so reducing throttle will change the weight distribution, so the forks will compress, effectively creating a sharper/quicker steering angle? Meaning that the bike will tip in with less effort? I always do my quick steer with a completely closed throttle - reason being that I'm a bit worried about accidentally rolling the throttle, especially into a right hand corner. Is that something that you've ever found to cause issues? Maybe I just need to be open to the idea and not worry about it so much... Bonus question! Well that would essentially be a low traction situation as far as the front tyre goes. Hard on the throttle + fast steering input... quite possible that the front tyre could leave the ground, and chances are that it wouldn't touch down in the same position? Quite likely cause a tank slapper or some other type of instability? In which case, the best course of action would be to stay on the throttle (definitely not to chop the throttle, but maybe to roll off a bit), right?

The reason I have been asking about those questions about using the rear brake to tighten a line is because that very question was asked at my recent Level 1 day. I'm lead to believe that it's actually something that is taught by another training group here in Australia (and probably others across the world) as a valid technique. But to paraphrase the answer that was given to our Level 1 class: Using the rear brake to tighten your line - no. I see it as a Survival Reaction more than anything else ("Oh no I'm going too fast > I need to slow down > rear brake > ahhh... I feel safe now"). I have done it myself, especially on the street - but now that I think back to those instances my use of the rear brake was also accompanied by a steering input which is what actually tightened my line. I would bet money that anyone who uses the rear brake to tighten their line is also making a steering input. In addition to that - I would argue that the effectiveness of the rear brake would be much less than the natural slowing effect of the bike turning. If I want to tighten my line, I make my steering input, keep the throttle closed, and do not make any additional input to the handlebars. The very act of cornering will reduce my speed, my lean angle does not change - therefore the combination of a lower speed for the same lean angle will result in a tightening line. And having experienced firsthand just how much speed can be shed simply by cornering and leaving the throttle closed, I would be very sceptical that anyone could use the rear brake to achieve the same result. Edited to add: that is also the only option if you're already at max lean angle. Maybe if we ask one of the Riding Coaches nicely they will be able to help explain this?

That's really strange. Have you ever had a front end slide previously? If not, it would be possible that the front had momentarily lost traction and was sliding. But if you have experienced a front slide before I'm guessing you would know what it feels like... My preference would have been to go straight to my Coach and get that sorted, but anyway... if it happened to me my checklist would be something like this: Did it only happen once? Did it only happen at one corner, or at different places around the track? Was the track surface good where it happened? Was I only pushing on the inside handlebar (or both)? Was I moving my body while turning? Did I accidentally roll the throttle while making the steering input? Would the shape of the track affect my steering input (ie. negative camber, top of a hill etc.) Personally I like to play it safe and so I don't even attempt a quick steer unless I'm well off the brakes. I do sometimes trail the front brake a little into the corner, but then the steering input is definitely not quick. I wouldn't think it's because you didn't have enough weight on the front tyre. The only situation where I can see that being a problem is if you had been accelerating very hard and made the quick steer input very quickly before the front wheel had a chance to settle (or some other situation that would cause a similar result). When I was doing the Quick Steer drill I was coasting up to one corner for at least 80 metres or so, then quick steering with no problem at all, no braking beforehand. But the track was dead flat. From what you said I am guessing that it only happened once? Was it a left or right hand corner? And do you remember if you were only pushing on the inside handlebar, or were you also pulling on the outside handlebar?

Street briskly + track as fast as I can. But just to clarify that - "as fast as I can" does not mean riding more comfortably than I can, or risking a crash. Actually an interesting thing that I noticed from my last couple of track days was that the majority of crashes happened in the slow group (Intermediate Slow). And that would have been around... 8-10 crashers over two days, two of them receiving a complementary ride in an ambulance. My group (Intermediate Fast) was only red flagged once over two days. The Advanced group I cannot remember being red flagged at all. The very slow group (first timers and very nervous people in Novice) actually seemed to be able to stay mostly upright as well. I would say that "riding carefully" has far more to do with actually knowing how to ride, rather than what speed you're doing. Reminds me of alot of the "speed kills" propaganda that governments pump out, people take this onboard not knowing any better, and they automatically assume that slow = safe. In contrast to that, I'm now more confident in my riding than ever before, and riding faster than ever before - by a fair margin I think. (Much credit due to CSS for that!) Also I want to know who said wherever and whenever in a reckless manner?! Not that I can really expect them to own up... haha

Hi fastmax, first off - welcome to the forum! So motion sickness, eh? That sounds like a fairly intense result of vision problems! Have you read either of the Twist books, or watched the DVD? I would start out there. Or have you attended CSS, that would be even better. The books/DVD/school will answer your questions much more comprehensively, but I'll try: If you're in a corner and realise that your vision is not correct, for example you've dropped your sight to just in front of the bike - I'm not sure that there's any 'tips' or 'tricks' here other than sheer force of will to make yourself look where you should be. Interesting that you mention "looking far enough through the corner". It's not good to fixate on the area just in front of you, but it's also possible to look too far ahead. For example - would it be an advantage to look to the next corner entry if you haven't even finished with your current corner? As a general rule, I would look ahead to my next reference point once I was sure I'm going to hit my current reference point. For example - once you know you're going to hit your turn point, look to your apex. (As you reach your turn point, you're already looking to your apex.) Then when you know you're going to reach your apex, look to your exit. (Once you actually reach your apex, you're already looking to the exit.) Also - are you trying to keep your head level throughout the corner? Some people lean their head with the bike, I can imagine that being very disconcerting. But the best advice I could give would be to get your hands on the Twist books and get out to a School!

Hi All, My Dad mentioned something interesting to me during the last week - he heard a radio program that was talking about becoming an expert in a given field. Some may have heard this figure mentioned before, but it seems like the consensus is that it takes 10,000 hours of practice to become a true expert. I started to think about that from the point of view of riding motorcycles (everything has something to do with motorcycles, to me at least ), and especially cornering. Yes, there's alot of practice time needed, but that's not what I thought was really interesting... The really interesting part is what qualifies as practice towards those 10,000 hours. The point was made that it must be concentrated, deliberate practice. So applying that to riding - in order to be doing real practice we must be concentrating and making a deliberate effort. If we're just out for a cruise, enjoying the roads and scenery - that does not count as practice. It just made me realise how important it is to make a deliberate, conscious effort to practice something whenever I'm out for a ride. Even if it's just a run down to the shops, maybe I only practice on one or two corners. But every bit helps, because that kind of practice isn't easy to do for long sustained periods, and 10,000 hours is alot of time. Otherwise it's easy to switch over to "auto pilot" and not only does that put a stop to improvement in our riding, but it's very easy to slip into bad habits again.

Cheers Hotfoot - good info, I just gave myself a refresher on Chapter 17 as well. Now, for the question of being already leaned over and wanting to make another steering input to further increase lean angle - what to do with the throttle... Well we can rule out adding more throttle because that would reduce stability and traction. Also it's probably fair to say that we would want to adhere to Throttle Control Rule #1, so my preference would be to close the throttle while making the steering input, then open the throttle smoothly and continuously once I knew I was going to achieve my chosen line.

Interesting that you mention that, I'm just taking a look at QP now... First question for anyone playing at home - when the rear tyre leaves the ground and moves to the inside of the track under braking, what direction is the front wheel travelling? (Does it move closer to, or further from the white line at the edge of the track?)

I reckon. Remember the recent GSX-R1000 release (can't remember the exact year), where the new bike was actually heavier than the previous model? Suzuki claimed that this was deliberate to increase stability. Also Yamaha - when they originally released the 'big bang' R1 they said that the engine characteristics and throttle control was so good that you didn't even need traction control. But look at the R1 now...

True, but then there's also ones who just seem to be completely oblivious to any road markings and just ride however they want... When car drivers panic that is scary though. Maybe there is a real market for a series of books and DVDs called "Push of the Foot"?

That's true Eirik, but in this particular case we're talking about braking while the bike is leant over in a corner... and probably not with enough time to think about first applying the rear brake before the front? (If that would even provide any benefit while the bike is leant over?)

Wow - I wasn't expecting so many replies! Thanks all for your participation. Cheers khp, that makes sense. I was starting to think along those lines, but just wanted to check that against other peoples experience. Okay - so to answer the question of how to quick steer when you already have some lean angle - the steering input will lessened because there is less distance to full lean. And to take it further, there could be a couple of ways this could be accomplished - either with a lot of input force, and a shorter length of time; or with a lesser input force and for a longer time. I think the main thing that kind of threw me is that my only reference point for Quick Steer had been that I was only doing it from upright. Previously I'd never really thought of it as an option in slower corners, or places where the bike already had some lean. Glad to have that clarified. I did keep practicing quick steer, more forcefully in some corners than others - but it made a big difference to the approach speed and corner entry speed (both were faster). In the pits yesterday I was actually parked up next to a guy who had done Level 2 last year, he was trying to remember his lessons... but I saw him doing the Quick Steer into one corner in particular and that also helped to answer my question. Crash - you sure know how to ruin a guys day! That's just depressing to think that my Gixxer has been spoken of in the same sentence as a Harley... but I get what you're saying. Although it seems like the big difference is that you're talking about the Harley rider starting at upright, whereas I'm talking about starting my steering while the bike already has lean angle carried out of the previous corner. What BLSJDS guessed was right - I would already be well past my apex on the first corner and well into the throttle, but still leant over a bit when I need to enter the next corner. Taking two steering inputs for a turn just seems a bit wacky... let's just say that I'm riding very differently to Harley riders who do that, and that shall be the last mention of Harleys. Then we can all stay friends as well. Haha It was at Lakeside. This was the best map I could find: It's a really windy track (read that as "it's a fantastic track"), and the number of places where the bike is upright become fewer the faster you go around. The main place I had in mind with this question was coming out of the Bus Stop, under the bridge and downhill through that fast-ish left hander. Depending how fast you go, and your line through there you can be carrying some lean angle when you get to the next left hander at Hungry Corner. There's some double apex fun at The Karrassel and Eastern Loop... Good idea to find a video, this is the best one I could find: Maybe it gives you a better idea of the track, but wow - watching that vid now and the differences to how my riding has changed really stand out. For example the vid shows that guy turning into corners way way early and staying wide through corners, but I digress.

Hi All, I just have a question about Quick Steer. The track I did Level 1 at was nice and easy to practice this, because all of the corner entries started with the bike in an upright position. So I could just steer it as quick as I could without any worries about traction. But at a track day today I realised that I'm not quite sure how to handle a Quick Steer in sections where the bike is carrying some lean angle already. For example a left hand corner that leads into another left hander so soon that the bike is still leant over from the exit of the first corner. (This situation could also come up as a rider gets faster and where they were previous upright they are now carrying lean angle.) Really I suppose the first corner exit never finishes (the bike doesn't make it upright), the 2nd corner just starts part way through the 1st corner exit. I am thinking that the force of the quick steer may need to be reduced as the lean angle increases (similar to using the brakes). But then I think about it some more and I'm conflicted! Since the turning force and braking force are very different - does the quick steer force really need to be reduced with lean angle? For example it's possible to lose traction under braking (whether the bike is upright or in a corner, it's possible to lock the front wheel), but with quick steering it is nigh-on impossible to lose traction as a result. Would it be correct to say that the only time a steering input will cause a crash is when the bike is already at max lean? Or if the rider is trying to do something else at the same time (like accelerating or braking)? I started to feel my way into some leant-over quick steering today, but didn't really feel confident to push it (although I also felt completely fine and it did not cause any "moments"). I am at the same track again tomorrow, so I will experiment with this and report back (depending on my success or failure). Edited to add: all mentions of quick steer assume a good track surface and good tyres... Cheers, Conrad

No room to move your bike? Sounds like you ended up between a rock and a hard place... Well if you absolutely cannot move your bike anywhere, I'd say that rolling off the throttle and braking is the only option. But this situation is a great one to illustrate this point - when you have a very fine margin between staying upright and crashing, do you want more feel and control or less? Do you have more feel and control in your fingers, or in the bottom of your foot? Even in that situation I would not try and reach for the back brake, it would be front brake all the time. The back brake would not provide more stopping power... am I right in guessing that the only reason it's suggested is because people are afraid of locking the front wheel? That is where experience, skill, feel etc. all come into it. Is the possibility of locking the front and lowsiding really worse than the possibility of locking the rear and highsiding? Yogatriathlete, do you think that maybe the bike was unsettled because you made a quick move to the brake? I have surprised myself with what's possible when I'm leant over and smooth with the brake.

It should also be mentioned that just because a single steering input is used, doesn't mean a constant radius turn will always be produced (depending on when the throttle is re-applied, a significantly tightening line can also be produced).

A weekend custom of watching the Twist DVD? Nice one! How people fail to stay in their lane is beyond me (I'm not just talking cars, I have seen oncoming bikes in my lane as well ). You wonder how these people got out of preschool, mustn't have understood the concept of 'colouring between the lines'.

Hey ANORXIC51, good questions. Another thing to keep in mind for your track day - it's better to be faster in the fast corners, than to try and be fast in the slow corners. You'll do better things for your lap time that way. So no point in trying to really get on the throttle hard out of a slow corner if it makes the rear slide and move around, better just to take it easy and get a good, reasonable drive out (especially if the next corner is a fast one). But from what you said about sacrificing slow corners it seems like you already got the hang of that... If I had to put down a few 'rules' for an ideal cornering style, they would be: Turning as quickly as possible (quick steer - allows faster entry speed and later turn in point) Making only one steering input (if you need to make a steering correction, you blew it) Opening the throttle as early as possible (without being so early that you run wide) Throttle Control Rule #1 (if you have to back off the throttle, you blew it) It may be counter-productive to try and categorise each corner and say "okay, this one needs to be squared off, this one needs move corner speed..." (if not just for the reason that it's impossible to define different corners with one definition.) Personally, I would just think about my line, and what I'm trying to accomplish with the turn. It almost seems to me like the terms "square it off" and "corner speed" are a misnomer. What I mean is - thinking about my ideal corner, whether it is a single or double apex, very fast or medium speed corner, I would have a fast entry speed, I would quick steer, my corner speed would still be high, and I would get back on the throttle early as well..? It seems like corner speed is over rated. If you're using quick steer, you're going to be leant over for less time in the corner anyway. Who do you think would make a faster lap time - someone who takes big, sweeping lines so they can show their corner speed, or someone who spends less time in the corner? The person who spends less time in the corner can use full throttle sooner, right? The only other thing I would say is don't be afraid to try some different things, even if it takes you off the 'usual line' that everyone else seems to be stuck to. New riders definitely need quick steer. That is just about the single biggest confidence booster (or was for me, at least).

IMHO Im guessing feedback and modulation is better from the hands. Bingo. If you need a high level of fine, accurate control - how would you get a better feeling? Hands up who has better feeling in the bottom of their foot than in their fingers? But as far as using the rear brake to reduce wheelies exiting turns... Hhmmm... seems kinda daft to me? I have always thought why not just use the same control that caused the wheelie in the first place - throttle? It makes sense to me that it would be ideal to leave the brakes to do what they're designed for (to reduce speed). Especially after watching this: (Starting at around 6:55.) (Great series if you haven't seen it, first part is here: I think part 14 here is the final one, some more great stuff at the end of this one about using the clutch to control wheelies and stop the bike from sliding out of a turn: ) As far as the recommendation in Twist to leave the rear brake alone, if memory serves it also goes on to say that on the track you don't stop until you're back in the pits. Which sets the context. What's the point in using $3 of your attention for a 5% braking increase? (To use some numbers to illustrate the point.) Better to use more attention on the front brake, and use it effectively to maximum. Because I will bet that if you're thinking about using the rear brake, you're not using the front brake to the max. For street riding, especially riding at slow speed it's a completely different story. I will always use the rear brake alone for things like u-turns, starting on hills, etc. Reason being that if you need to make a quick reaction and stop suddenly, the tendency would be to slam on the brake. If you're using the front brake it will be easy to lock it and drop the bike. But if you lock the rear it will slide, but would take something fairly major to make you drop the bike (compared to how easy you can drop the bike by locking the front). Eirik, your mention about using rear brake to tighten a line is interesting... how do you think that works? Have you ever come across any supporting explanation for that?

Ah, yes - I've seen this vid around. Nice Suzuki ad, eh? I kind of get where it's coming from, I used to be against all rider aids like TC, ABS, etc. I had an image in my mind of a 'perfect' uncompromised bike, a real riders machine. I was the same with cars - I always saw TVR as a real 'drivers car', no power steering, no ABS, wants to kill you at every corner... But the fact is that no one needs to 'take back control', because control hasn't been taken away. If electronics interfered with riding, fast guys wouldn't use them. If anyone says that they don't want electronic aids because they interfere with their riding, what they're really saying is that they're better than Stoner et al. Or at least better than the combination of Stoner and cutting edge electronics. That's pretty good! The only real issue I can see comes back to the rider (as always), and their ability to adjust the electronics properly. It's easy to see how a bike being ridden on track with TC set to full (and 'rain mode', even) would be very frustrating. But complaining about electronics in that situation is like complaining that your bike is down on power because you only twist the throttle to halfway. But once you have TC set to low, I doubt many people would be limited by that. For example the Aprilia RSV4 APRC SE with Traction Control set to Level One would be a handful even for many experienced racers - it's like it has been designed for Max Biaggi alone. Really it's just Suzuki's excuse for not having TC on their latest bikes. But they'll have all the electrickery eventually.