YellowDuck

It's very common to feel like you are hanging off more than you really are, and to feel like you are leaning more than you really are. Almost everyone I know who saw pictures of themselves cornering on the track for the first time was surprised at how little lean angle they were using, and how little they were off the bike. I assume though that we are talking about street riding. If that is the case, then I wouldn't encourage you to pursue lean angle just for the sake of it. As others have mentioned, if your technique is good then the only ways to increase lean angle is to use a poor cornering line, use poor technique, or to simply go faster. There is no good arguement for the first two, and the latter might be a poor idea too depending on the road conditions, traffic, speed limits, etc. Get thee to the track.

I can honestly say that I just don't have this problem. So long as I drink water and gatorade all day while at the track, I finish feeling pretty much the same as when I started, except for being tired in the legs (thighs). It's much cooler here than in California, but some of our track days will be in the low 30s (celcius) and humid. I actually tend not to sweat that much anyway. I usually even keep my leathers on at lunch because I am perfectly comfortable in them! I am used to the sore muscles the next day from weight training anyway - it is sort of a normal condition for me, so I guess I just tough it out. Maybe take an Advil if it is really bad, but it generally isn't. I don't stretch before or after riding - it is just not really exercise in that way. My brother on the other hand, he pops Advil all day at the track as a prevetative measure. I have a sketchy back, and once or twice going to the track when it wasn't 100%, I wondered how it would affect me. One time this July I had spent a whole weekend single-handing a small sailboat (designed for two people!) in high winds. It was a blast but my back was truly toast and I was worried about the track day on Thursday. My back actually got *better* during the track day - some how it was therapeutic!

Sad, but true. I have been track riding for two full seasons now, and a have made a lot of progress (about 1:43-ish when I started at this track down to 1:29s now). But even so, every couple of track days some kid will show up with a taped up R6 or R1 or GSXR for his first day ever, blast past everyone in the novice group, move up to intermediate for the afternoon, and beat my lap times by a second or two. They typically know nothing - they just show up and ride fast. I'm happy for those guys and admire their talent, but in another way it can be a bit disheartening to see how easy it is for them! Fortunately at this stage in my life I don't have a lot of ego to manage. I just concentrate on my own improvement and accept that there will always be a bigger gorilla in the jungle.

It's a trick question. The answer is: It doesn't matter whose fault it is. The rider has way more at stake in the event of an accident, and has the responsibility (to himself) to ride in such a manner that he can protect himself from the mistakes of others. This fellow didn't even come close to meeting that standard. If you ride a motorcycle relying on others to follow the rules of the road 100% of the time, and stake your life on them doing so, you won't be riding long.

Oh yes, I am at least starting the braking and getting the initial weight transfer done before downshifting, for sure. I probably was exaggerating a bit too much when I said the beginning of the braking zone. But still, I am done with the shifting WAY before it is time to position myself for turn in, which definitely was not the case when I had to be careful letting the clutch out to control the rear wheel. I am actually not sure that I *could* over rev the engine with my slipper, at least the way it is set up currently . Once it releases the bike feels like it is practically freewheeling, and the revs drop way down. It is only when it starts to grab again that the revs come up, and they never come up very high. Granted, there is never a place at this track where I downshift more than two gears at once, so I never tested a very extreme mismatch of wheel and motor speeds.

Well, the slipper worked perfectly, and it only took me a few sessions to get used to how it felt. It takes a bit of faith at first to select your gear for the corner at the *beginning* of the braking zone, then just dump the clutch with no consequences....but it sure is a great improvement once you learn how to use it! It really is not a subtle difference at all. Unfortunately I was not able to use this nice mod to help me lower my lap times. It was very cool and windy with no direct sun all day, so the track was pretty slick and I could never get enough heat into my tires no matter what I did with the pressures. I had plenty of slides at both ends during the morning, which really sapped my confidence. It got a little better in the afternoon so that I found the courage to up my pace a bit, but I ended the day still almost 2 s off my previous best. I decided to call it a victory just for bringing it home in one piece, and to put a set of tire warmers on my Christmas list.

The Michelin site shows the Power Pure as second in performance only to their Power One mostly-track tire. I'm not contesting anything else you're saying, I just want to make sure we're talking about the same thing. Thanks for all the replies everyone. Please keep them coming! Sorry, pretty sure I must have confused them with the Pilot Power 2cts, since you said 2ct. Of course, the Power Pures are a 2-compund technology (2ct) tire too, but 2ct is not part of their "name". Honestly, Michelin's system for naming their tires is a tad confusing.....

To update this thread.... Another track day - probably the last of the season - coming up this Thursday at my regular track. So, we will see where my times are. I am hoping to get regularly into the 1:28's this time, perhaps with a few 1:27's in there. Consistent 1:25's would have me to where I could reasonably run in Red (advanced) group, so maybe that will happen next season. Not that that is a goal of mine necessarily, but it would be kind of a benchmark of progress, and not bad for a 44-year old on a 90-hp bike who never hit the track until last year! I have also added a slipper clutch in the mean time. There are three corners at TMP where I am wasting brain power and time letting the clutch out slowly on downshifts in order to control the rear wheel (remember, 1000-cc V-twin). Hopefully the slipper helps relieve me of that inconvenience. On the other hand, the new clutch is totally untested (track-only bike!), so maybe it will not work at all and ruin my day! My mechanical skills are somewhat mediocre, although so far they haven't got me into any real trouble.

A Power Pure 2ct is a sport touring tire. If you are running the rear Power Pure to the edges with good body position, I would suggest that you may well be over-riding your front tire. You may even feel it more while at intermediate lean angles where you are still on the harder compound segment of the tire. Several guys I know who ran the 2cts gained a lot of confidence when they got rid of them and went to a more sport-oriented tire with single compound construction. Those were riders doing mid-intermediate group times, and getting their knees down (albeit not with very good body position as I recall). I am not discounting the possibility of technique playing into this - I have personally experienced the front tire doing weird stuff when I was too stiff on the bars - but it really sounds like you might also be due for a tire upgrade. Just my 2 cents - I am definitely not an expert!

Thanks KS, and welcome to the forum! I found it a lot easier to "believe" once I learned to relax. Relaxing the upper body, in my case, seemed to relax the mind as well. I guess to relax your grip on the bars you first have to trust the bike to do the right thing on its own, which is the first step to getting the confidence to take more lean angle, if that makes sense. Worked for me anyway!

Update: Another track day at TMP yesterday - perfect conditions, with not one yellow flag....we just kept going and going. I am exhausted today (legs). My best lap last time was a 1:30.0. Yesterday my only goal was to better that. I managed 1:28.4, but I think that one lap was a bit of a fluke, since my next best was a 1:29.2. Still, not a bad improvement and, most importantly, I really "solidified my gains"; 1:29.x's were happening all the time and nothing was ever above 1:31.0 if I had clear track. So, getting quite consistent! I didn't really consciously work on anything new (in terms of the CSS exercises), but did find that I was consistently very relaxed at the bars and through my arms and shoulders. The lean angles don't spook me anymore, so I am not tensing up at all really. With my new found skills getting fairly ingrained I was able to experiment more with different lines and even gear selection. I ramped up entry speed to a few corners substantially, and also improved my body position I think. I am really feeling the bike settle in solidly on its suspension in each corner, which is a great feeling. Also, accelerating out of some corners as the suspension decompresses has led to a few "still leaned over" power wheelies in second gear and even third (!). Kinda cool. So, all in all quite successful, and the best part is that I can easily see where the next gains will come from - there are several corners where I am now not using anything like all the room on exit, so it should just be a matter of dialing up the entry speeds and/or getting on the throttle sooner on the exit. What I like most about this is that I am realizing these improvements without ever scaring myself or feeing like I am in over my head. Yes, screwing up my courage to fly into a corner with more entry speed than ever before was a bit "exciting", but by the apex I always knew I was going to make it so there were never any "oh sh*t" moments.

Thanks fellas. I had a lot of time between track days and so had done a lot of reading and thinking about what I was going to try to do this time - very prepared, mentally, with a short list of things to pay attention to. Will let you know how I progress with the next outing.

The CSS coaches have you pick one thing to work on in a session. If you get it nailed down you move on to the next one. If it helps the order CSS teaches the skills you mentioned is: Throttle control Quick turn Rider input (loose on the handle bars) Two step Body position (setting up early) Good luck and let us know how it goes! It was actually a very successful day. I was worried because I was a bit sleep deprived (insomnia the last few nights) and so wasn't feeling my best. I didn't time laps on my first session - just worked a bit on body position and generally getting the cobwebs out, since I hadn.t been track since May. After that, I really concentrated on the "throttle rule" (rolling on the throttle slowly but constantly, once cracked open, to maintain slight acceleration). I got reasonably good at this. Of course I could almost always have opened it up earlier, but the important thing is that I was basically never doing the SR roll off thing - maybe twice during the whole day, and even then only very mildly. I also worked hard on setting my line through each corner with one, quick steering input. This was easily the biggest change I made to my riding, and it really really helped. I was carrying significantly more lean angle comfortably. I actually accidentally got my knee down three or four times, which sort of startled me the first time. It will take a while to get used to that, and in fact for the later sessions I just kept my knee tucked in a bit more because the touching down was distracting. I know I am supposed to use it as a "lean angle gauge" but I had other stuff to do and it was freaking me out. I was surprised how much energy it takes to quick steer the bike! I didn't try "pivot steering" at all but maybe I should next time. Anyway, I really like the feeling of flopping it over fairly hard - makes all the difference in the world. Just a lot more precise. In terms of lap times I easily beat my past best. Previously, 1:33.1 was my best. Second session yesterday I had already done a 1:31.3. Session after that I was down to 1:30.0 best, and 1:31s and 1:32s were easy when I had clear track. Unfortunately the afternoon got a bit rainy - not enough that I couldn't go out even on slicks, but enough to make it just slightly greasy and spooky - rear end was stepping out a bit coming out of slow corners. So, I quit early - not too disappointing since I had already accomplished my goals for the day (-3.1 s!). Although, if it had stayed dry I definitely would have tried to break into the 1:29s. For reference, the lap record on my class of bike (BOTT lightweight) is 1:17.something. So, my "lean faith" has definitely increased. Obviously, now I need to get comfortable with my knee on the tarmac. I am also not happy with my body position - just not locked into the tank well enough, so my inside arm is doing too much work keeping me on the bike. My tires were getting hotter than ever before - the edges of the rear felt quite "gummy" to the touch. Not sure it that is a good thing, or if maybe I was overheating it a little and need to up the pressure some. Can't wait for the next outing to try to advance a bit more. Thanks everyone for your help!

Okay, track day Thursday, on my regular track. My best lap to date there is 1:33. Will report back how it goes. Between this thread and Twist II, I have got a sort of loose list in my head of things to work on: i) setting body position early (I think I already do that pretty well) and griping a bit better with my outside knee and both feet. ii) staying loose at the bars iii) rolling on throughout the rest of the corner once the throttle is cracked open iv) one single, quick steering input (that's where I have the most work to do) and v) sighting my turn points and apices early (two-step). I won't try to keep all of that in my head at one time of course because that seems like a good way to mess up a golf swing, but I'll work on certain things in each session. No real target in mind other than beating 1:33, which I expect I will do easily if there is any clear track available in intermediate.

It's not clear to me yet. It kind of seems like the goal is to start rolling on as soon as the steering input is completed. I need to actually be on the bike to see how that works (or doesn't). As I understand the logic, cracking the throttle and then rolling on to maintain 60/40 will not cause anything untoward to happen, if the steering input was adequate to achieve the correct line in the first place. So, the obvious question...I am in the corner, throttle rolling on, and suddenly I don't believe my line is going to let me make the exit. Then what? The natural SR is to roll off, but as I understand it that is going to stand the bike up and also create a weight transfer that will reduce traction. But adding throttle and lean angle at the same time is deadly. So.....?

You must be hanging out with the guys on Japanese bikes... I kid, I kid! It's true though...people misuse words enough, and then the dictionaries finally give in. I used to tell my students that "data" was plural (i.e., "did you examine those data?", not "did you examine that data?"). But then the dictionaries relented and I couldn't really make that claim anyone. One could call this the tyranny of ignorance, but I guess it is just the evolution of the language. The current shorthand used in text messaging has me a bit worried about where this is going though.... And I will NEVER give up on "affect / effect". NEVER! You can't make me!!! Edit: After writing the above, I checked...and I can't actually find any evidence that "apices" is any older or more generally accepted than apexes....so maybe I am just being snotty....

I am reading TOTW2 now and it is reinforcing a lot of what you folks have been explaining here. Thanks also to the member giving me more help via PM. It's much appreciated. I am through the section on throttle control and am wondering about how I will like the Throttle Rule in practice. I definitely buy the 60/40 idea and the argument that the "rolling off SR" stands a good chance of having the opposite of the intended effect (i.e., making the bike run wider, and also reducing traction). I have felt that in the real world already, so it's easy to accept. I guess the real challenge, as others have stated above, is knowing when "as soon as possible" is. The conversation above and material in the book about how turning and cornering reduce speed have also been helpful. I feel like if I can just complete several sessions with no tension in my arms and *never* rolling off in a corner, then I will have made good progress. I was actually getting there on my own (i.e., I was already concentrating on, especially, staying loose), but reading the book and chatting with you folks has helped ingrain the importance of these points. The other big thing will be to make one, early steering input - but I expect that to be harder. I am also getting my head around the traction limits of the tires, and how far away I am from those currently. I expect my "lean faith" will be greatly improved next time out.

I am reading TOTW2 right now, and since definitions and proper use of technical language are emphasized, here is one for everyone, relevant to this thread: plural of apex = apices. As in, "that corner actually has two apices". ....now back to your regularly scheduled, useful discussion....

Personally I think ABS is a great idea for a road-going motorcycle, and it really does sound like the modern systems work wonderfully. My only reservation, especially for a track bike, is the extra degree of complication it adds from a mechanical standpoint. As a shade tree tinkerer who almost never takes his bike to a mechanic, I strongly value simplicity over technical superiority. A traditional hydraulic disk brake system is a wonder of physics and an extremely simple thing that anyone can understand and repair. Adding sensors and pumps and servos and extra lines makes it much less so. But then again, I ride an air-cooled 2-valver at the track, so I am already way out in left field on this to begin with. Incidentally, I had the same reaction initially to motocycle fuel injection. However, then I came to realize that with the acquisition of a laptop and some software and connectors, fuel injection (as compared to carbs) made the fuel tuning *more* accessible to a person like me, not less so, while reducing the number of moving parts and making it simpler to service. I doubt that I will ever feel that way about ABS though.

Sure, on a BMW. On an American car it stands for "Antilock braking system". Unless you are talking about some plastic bits in the interior, or the composition of some OEM motorcycle fairings - then it is Acrylonitrile Butadiene Styrene.

.....................(pop!)..................... ^^^^ (sound of YellowDuck's brain exploding.......very small explosion...) Seriously, thanks again - I now have *more* than enough to work on next track day. Unfortunately that looks to be a month off...but it will be at my regular track, so I can gauge my improvement from the lap times.

Just highlighting this paragraph as you do contravene the throttle rule in that respect, you say that you can't add brakes or throttle at maximum lean and that might be a bit misleading, as it goes against the teaching of cracking on the throttle as soon as possible after your turning input is complete. Once you've turned and got to that maximum lean angle, you ideally want to be adding throttle at that point, not a massive amount and certainly not enough to overwhelm the tyres, but certainly enough to load the rear tyre and get the suspension working in that optimum range. Yes, I think there is a bit of a logical flaw, in the assumption that "maximum lean" means the tires are at the limit of traction. That may or may not be true on a given bike with a given set of tires on a given track, but most often it won't be. Lean angle is usually ground clearance limited, yes? So, in most cases at maximum lean there is still *some* tire traction available for acceleration, right? This is just a logical argument on my part because I have never experienced maximum lean on any motorcycle that wasn't severely ground clearance limited (low pegs, etc)...but I think it makes sense.

I'm curious to know where this is going.... It depends what you mean by "coasting". Normally being off the throttle on my bike (large displacment twin running at high rpm) means major engine braking and therefore decceleration, even without brakes. That would be a weird way to go through a corner, but I have done it for a bit when I thought I was in too hot, and it is okay. Not pleasant when I get back on the throttle and the chassis attitude rocks backwards suddenly - but at that point I wold be applying the throttle pretty gently, having already blown the corner. If by "coasting" you mean neutral throttle, then yes, I do that alot, especially on long slow corners and it is very comfortable. If by "coasting" you mean freewheeling (i.e., clutch pulled in or bike accidentally in a false neutal or something), no that would really spook me. Without the engine engaged with the drive train I am kind of lost and nothing feels right. For example, hitting a flase neutral while gearing down for a corner is pretty terrifying.

Yes, very helpful and generous of you to write all that to try to help me out! It is clear that you understand exactly what my issue is ("lean faith" - perfect!). I have read it all through a couple of times and understand it perfectly - I am sure it will help me. I may even try running with my M3s next track day instead of the redstripes, if I have time to do the swap. This is exactly the type of information I was looking for when I started the thread. Thanks so much!

Oh believe me, I will devour the book once it arrives! I have actually got a fair bit out of this thread already, so thanks to all who have responded. Reading over it all and studying my photos a bit more has led me to understand that one of the big problems is that I think I am going to ground my pegs....even though it is plain from the geometry in the photo that that is never going to happen before my knee touches. It is kind of a "body awareness" issue, at least in part - I am misperceiving where my foot and knee are relative to one another and relative to the ground. I also wonder if having more than 150,000 miles of road riding experience before ever going to the track is part of the reason that "track pace" lean angles feel so unnatural to me. So far, based on everyone's suggestions, for my next track day I will definitely work on 1) keeping my head level 2) getting my outside leg better engaged with the tank (based on the photo!), 3) increasing my turn in speed and trying to get the turning (leaning) done quickly, and of course 4) continuing to try to stay relaxed and letting the bike do what it is supposed to. Likely I will have read a big bunch of TOTW2 before then, which should help. Thanks all - I will report back in a few weeks and let you know how I got on.