YellowDuck

Uh, yeah....I'm gonna go ahead and say that she should probably be wearing a helmet....

I think the risk of financial ruin may also be higher with horses than heroin.

Oh, gross! Anyway, glad it is a (relatively) uncomplicated injury. If they told you only six weeks you should be flattered - that's what they would do for a teenager. An old fart like me gets told 8 to 10....

Yellow Duck;This isn't General Advice that I think many of us would embrace; every low side I have ever had was far worse than running off the track every time it's happened. Your second paragraph is an improvement over your opening but the opening is hard to ignore. Rainman I agree 100% for track riding, but the question was about road riding, where going off the road at speed usually means going down for sure. By contrast, just leaning more will let you make the turn in a large majority of cases since most street riders underestimate the amount of lean available (since they have never experienced it). If the road you are on is more or less like a race track (many meters of smooth, level grass or dirt before a ditch, wall, guardrail, forest etc.), then yes, by all means, stand it up, brake hard then ride it out off the road. But that's a pretty rare circumstance, at least on the roads where I ride! I stand by my advice for road riding: if in doubt, lean more. Chances are you will make it. Actually, it's pretty darn good advice for the novice track rider as well.

General advice: Lean further. Then lean even further. Best case scenario is you make it. Worst case you lowside. Additional advice for riders who actually know what the lean limit is for their bike - i.e., have scraped hard parts before: If you are ***sure*** you can't make it, stand it up quickly and brake hard until you run out of asphalt, then get off the front brake, use the rear lightly if you can, and pray a little as you run through ditch. That way you crash at the lowest possible speed, or maybe don't crash if your guardian angel is on duty.

I agree. 10 s on a 1:15 lap is another universe. Larger than the difference between the winner of the pro superbike class, and the back of the pack in the novice 600 class. For me on my local track the difference between a 1:23 and a 1:28 is doing everything as properly as I can and being quite aggressive, vs cruising around without trying at all.

This is a great topic. Personally, my natural style is to trail brake, but I am not clear on whether or not it makes me faster. I really need to experiment with both methods systematically. I actually love the feeling of being totally off the brakes and turning really hard when I force myself to do it - it takes less brain power because I know I can turn as hard as I want without losing the front. Trail braking by comparison is quite spooky, and uses up attention I could be applying to making my lines more precise.

I think "your 100%" is a nebulous concept, because it keeps changing as you improve - not just over a riding career or a season, but even over a single day at the track . There are at least two aspects of it that I can identify: 1. Knowledge of best line, braking and turning points, etc. For example, at my home track that I have been riding at least five times per year for three years, about mid season this year I got a tip about a different line through a long double apex corner. I applied that tip and found I was able to carry *way* more speed, taking at least a second (maybe 2?) off my lap time. Once you have the basic operation of the machine down reasonably well, have good body position and are knee down in most corners, just finding the most efficient line around the track is where the big gains can come from. My 100% on a mediocre line is a lot slower than my 100% on the ideal line. Sometimes it is not obvious what the best line is, and even if you crib off a faster rider in front, you still may not really understand how much entry speed you can take. 2. Confidence. Taking way more speed into a corner than you ever have before - maybe because you have seen faster riders do it in front of you, or maybe because your riding coach has told you to - takes a pile of courage. This is ripe territory for SRs to trigger, and once your SRs have you believing that you can't do it....then by definition you can't. A corner that can easily be handled at a certain speed at near full lean with correct throttle control might suddenly become impossible the minute you roll off. So, my 100% is defined as much by my faith in what I am doing as it is by my actual abilities. I think that in addition to these two, there is some kind of upper limit for each of us defined just by raw ability - vision, dexterity, motor coordination, etc. When I see onboard video of lap records at my home track, my reaction is, basically, "forget about the riding skill...how can anyone even think that fast?". It just looks like it is being played in fast forward. Completely otherworldly. Sometimes you just know that you are never going there. The other guy's 100% is never going to be mine. I might as well try out for the National Ballet as try to set a 1:15 at Cayuga.

I can't even tell you all how helpful this thread has been. I keep reading it over and over beginning to end and each time I understand a little better what various people are trying to say. I feel like I am getting a much better understanding of how the dynamic between two riders works during a pass attempt in a race situation, at least at the mid-pack club racing level. I think it is probably true that I would be inclined to give up a position without too much of a fight to another midpack rider who showed me a wheel once or twice, especially if they do it with position on the inside of a corner. The mere fact that they are even in a position to do that indicates that they are faster over the course of a lap, so there is not that much benefit to forestalling the inevitable. Besides, if they have out-braked themselves to get there the position is going to be mine again in another second, so long as I let them by initially to avoid having them run both of us off. Does that sound about right? I am also getting a good image of what it means to still "ride the track" while following another rider. Just like at a track day, those spots where I know I am not up to my normal pace while following them will be the places where I attempt the pass next time around. The difference is that, unlike a track day, it really isn't my problem if taking position (line) away from them means they have to alter their line or roll off to compensate (within reason). I guess I am still having a hard time imagining how to take advantage of small mistakes the rider in front may make. If we are both on the same line with me behind, then I would have to react pretty darn quickly to an error on their part to pull out beside them and set up a pass that I wasn't otherwise planning beforehand. I am sure I will get a better feel for this once I get on the track with other riders under racing rules.

Hi Mugget. It's a great question, but I am not sure that I know the answer exactly. I don't ride on the street at all anymore, so I am not interested in improving my street riding. I am only interested in sportbikes and I find riding them on the road to be extremely unchallenging and kind of pointless. To make it fun at all I need to ride in a fashion that could only be described as socially irresponsible. I have been working very hard at improving my track riding and I guess racing just seems like the natural progression. I understand your logic about not being able to learn much while pushing to (my) 100% level, but I think there must be a flaw in that thinking because everyone I talk to says they instantly became faster on their first race weekend. Seriously, everyone to a person claims that to be true. I guess there is something educational about being on track with other riders who are trying to go as fast as possible. On the issue of track time, we get plenty on the Friday practice day (as much as on a track day) if we come for that, more practice and qualifiers Saturday, then Sunday races. It's not as much time as you would get on three track days, but it is more for the dollar because all three days are included in the registration. I guess I hope that the slightly competitive environment and opportunity to share the track with more serious riders will help me improve. But mostly I just want to take part in the sport in the company of others who take it seriously (and have managed to acquire a race license), rather than the random and unpredictable sorts that show up to a track day. Maybe I'll hate it and just go back to being a track day guy. But if I do, it will be in red group next year. I'm fast enough and consistent enough now and have no qualms being passed in close quarters.

Thanks folks this is all great!

It seems we have conflated two issues in this thread. I do let the clutch out between each downshift. What I don't do is downshift without clutching at all, which is what we started talking about halfway through the thread. I used to blip on (clutched) downshifts, but with the slipper clutch I now find this to be disadvantageous - brings no advantage and just reduces my ability to brake effectively.

Meh...I'm not so enthusiastic. Sure, you avoid having to use the clutch, but what is your left hand doing anyway? I don't find clutching difficult. What I find challenging is rev-matching for downshifts with the throttle while simultaneously braking hard with the right lever. I don't blip at all. I clutch and downshift without blipping, and let my very functional slipper clutch do its job. Meanwhile, my right hand has nothing to do but work the brake lever. If you can threshold brake and blip the throttle simultaneously, more power to you. I'm not that coordinated.

Thanks for the thoughtful and helpful posts - lots to think about. I like the analogy of a pass being like a chess move - there definitely is an element of planning ahead and anticipating the other guy's next move. I already do some of that "setting people up" trying to make passes at track days, but of course in that situation there is so much onus on the person behind not to do anything to endanger (or even inconvenience) the rider in front that I probably bail out of 75% of all pass attempts, just because I have some small amount of doubt that I can get by them cleanly before they would want to turn in. I think it will take me a while to get over that and be a bit more aggressive in taking track space away from other riders. Certainly on track days I see what Hotfoot is talking about, where I follow someone for quite a while and can't find a way by for the life of me, then they miss an apex or brake way too early or run a bit wide, and thank you very much there I go right by them (so long as I am paying attention and can see the situation for what it is immediately).

Nice to hear that. learning to read the track and other riders will give you a distinct advantage imho... I do that on the streets as survival practice and i pass an average of 15 riders per my short 2 Km journey for lunch and dinner in the suburbs. 90% of the passes are calculated based on geography and the other's mistakes. Im working on the remaining 10% ?? I fail to see the connection between passing riders on the street and passing them on a race track. One is a matter of how fast you want to go; the other is about how fast you are capable of going. If those two things are anywhere near the same on the street, you are doing something wrong. Perhaps I misunderstood. Passing someone on the street shouldn't be challenging - if it is, you shouldn't be doing it. I think I must have missed your point.

You mean like life / personal injury insurance? I have plenty. Wife made sure of that when I started track riding. The 600 is only for endurance racing (3 h, team of riders rotating through 20-min sessions) - it's pretty relaxed as racing goes.

At the ripe old age of 45, I plan to start racing next season. It will be fairly low key - endurance events on a 600 with a team consisting of myself, my brother and a friend, and also running my air-cooled Ducati in the lightweight Battle of the Twins class (mostly racing against SV650s). I may enter another class as well (old boys or lost-era) later in the season if I feel like I need more. Honestly, I am not 100% sure I will like it. I am certain that it will improve my riding, but on the other hand racing kinda seems, fundamentally, like one big game of chicken (brake later, corner harder, until you make the pass or crash...or chicken out and don't attempt the pass). I have pretty good idea of what is required on the technical side - tires, warmers, tech requirements for safety wiring, bellypan, numbers etc. I have access to a good riding coach for Friday training when I can afford it. Interested in comments / advice more on the mindset - making the transition from trackdays to racing. At trackdays I am always looking for clear track to set a time, avoiding other riders however possible. In racing, I will need to pursue and actively engage other riders, trying to make a pass while keeping a margin for safety. It's really very different, and takes a lot more judgement. How does one strike that balance and adopt the right state of mind? FYI, our organization does not do timed qualifying - on Saturday each class does a 6-lap qualifier race to determine grid positions for the Sunday races.

As for the SR of rolling off the throttle mid-corner... let's work toward that answer by having you (or anyone else) answer this question first: 1) What desirable effects does good throttle have on the bike? It maximizes two important things. What are they? Benny I am going to say optimum weight distribution between the front and rear tires (40 / 60) and ground clearance.

Benny, I found those last two posts of yours very illuminating. I *love* the 3-point CSS definition of a proper line. But I am with Justin on another point - I don't thing TOTWII makes very clear the point about throttle control once you realize you are running wide. Instead, it concentrates on mid-corner roll-off as an SR (which, of course, it often is). I guess mid-corner roll-off is an SR (rather than just a good decision) if 1) It was unnecessary - you could have made the corner on your initial line, and 2) it is done in a panicked rather than a controlled fashion, going suddenly to closed throttle rather than rolling off just enough to facilitate the line correction. Is that correct?

For a *brand new* rider? Anything that is old and crappy enough that they won't care when they drop it, low enough that they can get their feet reasonably planted at a stop, and with not much more than 75 hp or so. There used to be a lot of used "beginners bikes" like this kicking around - think GS500E - but they are a bit harder to come by these days. Probably an older Ninja 250 comes close.

I dunno...for the rider who has no corner speed because they are reluctant to take any significant lean angle at all, "trust your tires" is sometimes pretty good advice. Underestimating the amount of traction available is the main reason that my progress was so slow when I first started track riding. No offence, but sometimes I think the fast guys forget what it was like in the days before they had any concept of what a modern sportbike is capable of. At certain points in the learning curve, a bit of blind faith in what the bike can do is exactly what is called for. Just my 2 cents. YMMV.

1. High "SR" threshold... what can a rider do to reduce his SR threshold? What are the things that trigger SRs and what specific skills can be applied to reduce them? What what were/are your personal triggers & what have you guys done to reduce them? This is a great question but I am not sure I know the answer. At some point on the learning curve I spent a lot of time visualizing what to do in various situations. The most obvious one is when I feel like I have too much corner speed and the natural SR is to roll off, and maybe even pick the bike up...but I worked hard on convincing myself that, almost always, steady throttle (or nearly) and more lean angle was going to be the right strategy. The big breakthrough came the first time I felt I was in too hot, forced myself to crank it over farther, and made it through the corner safely with plenty to spare. That actually happened on a street ride in the North Georgia mountains in a spot where there was a heck of a lot at stake if I had actually gone off. Those experiences accumulate and eventually you arrive in a mental space where a situation that used to incite panic is now just a "been there, done that" kinda thing and you just do what is required without even raising an eyebrow. It sure makes track riding more fun (and safer, and faster) when you are not constantly on the verge of terror, suffering big spikes of adrenaline every time things don't go exactly according to plan. You just handle it.

Oh, and I am going to (very) respectfully disagree with ScrmnDuc that a slipper clutch is nothing more than an insurance policy against a botched downshift. That may well be true at a very high skill level where the rider can comfortably brake hard, while simultaneously blipping the throttle, working the clutch (or not!) and downshifting at the correct bike speeds. For mere mortals, a properly functioning slipper (i.e., not including most OEM slippers) gives one the option of completing downshifts in rapid succession at pretty much any point in the braking zone. In my experience this frees up much brain power for handling other tasks such as sighting RPs and setting the entry speed.

Lots of great advice above, but when I read the original post my reaction was immediately: try a gear higher for that corner. It can't hurt to try, and you might find that with the reduced engine braking you comfortably carry much more corner speed, plus you eliminate two shifts (one during braking and one during acceleration on the next straight). All of this may easily make up for the slight loss of acceleration at the exit. For Heaven's sake it is a litre-bike - make use of the advantage of not needing to row the gearbox.

#1 for me is something like Erik's "high SR threshold". If you are constantly feeling like you are going too fast for the situation and panicking, you really can't improve. You have to get to a point where you are pretty much always relaxed on the bike. It's 99% a mental thing. This includes having the faith to just lean the thing over further - maybe further than you ever have before - when you feel like you are in a corner too hot. I am getting quite good at this! #2 would be consistent line selection - being able to identify turn-in points and especially sight apexes so you are putting the bike exactly where you intend to in every corner. On new track layouts I still sometimes struggle to sight apexes in corners that are complex (e.g., multiple apex turns) or where there aren't good visual clues. #3 is sense of speed, *especially* when transitioning from braking to turn-in. Getting the entry speed right is probably the biggest key to fast lap times in my mind. You start learning this without much emphasis on minimizing your braking times, but eventually you have to progress to hard braking followed by optimum entry speed. I suspect that this is the skill that most often separates the merely fast riders from the truly exceptional ones. I am still terrible at this - I usually turn better lap times when I relax my braking a bit and set my corner speeds early. This is fine for track days but won't win me any races.