tweek

Rolling off the throttle should tighten the line.

Oh, and I don't notice that having the brakes on changes my steering effort or the bike trying to stand up. However, I do remember at level 1 in Mid-ohio having an incident. Somebody decided to make a close pass on the entrance to 11. I had to grab a little brake while turned in. That bike stanped up in a heart beat. My current ZX6 doesnt seem to do that. Possibly b/c I have more experience now or the suspension is setup differently. Any explanation for the difference?

First: I'm not making the claim. I'm referencing statements by championship winning riders like Freddie Spencer. Maybe this weekend I'll be able to collect data and see if I can tell any difference. Should be able to see acceleration and braking from the data collected. Too bad I don't have hookups to actually see throttle and brake usage though. Anyway, what I find myself doing is going from hard braking and then trailing off the brakes as I approach the turn in point and then being all the way off the brakes maybe a 1/3rd of the way in to the turn and then rolling the throttle back in. Part of the reason I'm doing this is to keep the bike settled. Having dropped 20 seconds/lap in the past year I'm finding that front end acts like a pogo stick under brakes and just gets worse if I release them too quickly. So its easier to trail the brake off. I've upped the rebound dampening but that only goes so far. I really need to take the bike back to the shop and have new springs installed. Which mean the bike will no longer be usable on the street. Unless doing on ramps at 90+ is considered good practice? So, short of changing out hardware is there something I could do differently to eliminate the need to trial off the brakes?

uhg....you're right. But the overall point that all schools teach riders to lean off the bike is correct. (What somebody come in and go 'oh, no! that isnt right. The Fisty McCrashy school teaches students to push the bike down like it's a dirt bike adn Fisty is right about everything). My intention is to try and understand why the differences in talking about braking technique. If there isnt a way to bridge them, then are there situations where one technique is going to have an advantage over the other?

rut ro.....nother question...... Why do I keep hearing that 'bikes like to turn with the brakes on'? We'll skip over the weighting of the inside peg to help it turn (beyond the fact that you have moved your mass over the peg). As already stated - the bike really like to turn when you push on the clipons. So why this difference? Is it just the flexiblity of language? These arent squids hanging out in the parking lot of the quickie mart. Well respected, victorious racers. Also I have a feeling that if you secretly put a camera on your on track coachs' bikes we'd see a lot of them trail braking too. Why all the mystery? The reasons for body position are well established: lower the COG so the bike uses less lean for the same speed on the same line. Can there be something equally straightforward for braking and throttle to resolve the differences? Something along the lines of the grand unification theory? And geez I need to ride. I'm so hoping the rain misses Slidell so I can get out on Sunday.

ECR - is that Eagles Canyon Raceway? Regardless of the track, I would recommend dividing that goal up in smaller, intermediate steps or goals - taking 18s out of 138s is my opinion A LOT, unless you are really 'coasting' along on the straights today. Consider it this way, if the track record is 1:46 (as on Eagles Canyon), you're today 30% off the lap record and 2:00 will be 13% off the lap record. Maybe you're just a lot braver than me, but to me ... wow, that's a big improvement you're looking to do. Yes - ECR is Eagles Canyon Raceway. The individual membership is a decent deal so I joined. Tired of missing sessions because squids show up to trackdays thinking they have skills. I don't expect to drop 18s in one whack. My first goal is to get to 2:15 which can be achieved by making a few minor improvements on corner entry. Then the goal will be to get to 2:10, then 2:05 and then 2:03 and finally 2:00. I have nearly 12 months and w/ the membership I can ride whenever so weather and tire budget are the limiting factors. Like today: its 17°F right now. Next week doesnt look much better with the chance of rain. So I do have an overall strategy. Part of the strategy is this stuff. Just trying to work out what is going on w/o riding the bike.

2 MotoST championships along with a long string of CMRA championships. I think he ran in FX but the bike was uncompetitive and then something happened with the main sponsor (who knew people could actually get hurt on these things?) causing them to pull funding. He actually coaches a number of successful racers (who might have had careers if RE had not screwed things up) and tends to be more race focus. Not sure why he kept talking about accident avoidance in that video. Actually, I do. If you ever do a track day with RideSmart you'll see why (more crashes than a NASCAR weekend). If he wasnt one of the Barber school instructors I'd say the CSS ought to get him on staff. He is an excellent coach one on one and really knows what he is doing. He holds time trial records at nearly every track in Texas and Oklahoma. Anyway, I agree that the way to go fast is on the throttle not the brakes. I'm just working through some problems and bouncing stuff around to see what echoes back. I agree that this is probably the simplest solution (involves the fewest actions and causes the fewest changes). Yup. Coming off a long straight (say the back at Mid-Ohio in to the chicane) you transition from WOT to full brakes (I think this is like the drive strategy in soft science) putting just about everything on the front tire and then flick right. That is how you guys taught me and it works really well. Using a trial brake strategy would mean that in the same situation I transtion from WOT to full brakes just a little beyond the drive approach. I begin trailing off the brake as I approach my turn marker and turn as I continue transitioning from the brakes and rolling on the throttle. I would always either be on the brakes or the throttle. By the time I reach the apex it should be all throttle (play the RRRRRRRRrrrrrrr......rrrrrrrrrRRRRRRR sound now). I know this is a topic that has been well paved so forgive me for being slow. My goal for 2010 is to get around ECR in 120seconds. Right now I can do it in 138s. There are 11 turns so I need to lose nearly 2 seconds in each turn to make that goal. So whatever tools I can find along the way I will make use of. Oh - in regard to the coasting comment - you're always supposed to be either on the brakes or the throttle but.....which is partially why it takes me 138 seconds to get around ECR

Ty Howard is a local hero that I've gotten to work with a bit during the past year. He teach trail braking, but the interesting piece to me is that the way he talks about it, it isnt really about slowing down. My interpretation is that his trail braking is the equivalent to CSS's hook turn. For instance, in this video: he points out that on the brakes the bike's front suspension is collapsed making the bike turn faster. By keeping a little pressure on the brakes the entire time you keep the bike's nose down and it turning in at a fast rate. Getting the bike turned quickly seems to be foundation to what CSS preaches. The quick turn, 2 step, hook turn, knee to knee are all about flicking the bike in the direction you want it to go. If trail braking can help why isnt it discussed anywhere in levels 1 - 3? I'm asking because I'm trying to figure out how to get my butt around ECR in under 120seconds this year (Track record is 105s) and the way ECR is laid out you have to be able to get the bike turned quickly and get back on the throttle. There is nowhere you can 'just coast' and get a decent time.

Level I no brakes drill will no be performed in 5th gear to keep punters like me from slingshoting ourselves in to the air fences. BMW? Have they gone quite mad? Really? BMW? Damn. Congratulations on landing the new sponsorship. Kawi had to cut back so they stopped in 2008. So even though I personally won't be running out to buy a S1000 anytime soon the sponsorship is great news because it means if I can find the time I can go do level 4 again in 2010 (and by 'anytime soon' I mean 'never' ).

Suddenly this thread has relevance to me. Next trip to the track will be during Thanks Giving and the temperatures will be in the high 50s and low 60s.... My big concern is the tires getting up to temp. Where I ride once my session starts I can go straight out on the track so it would be possible to remove the warmers and head straight out on to the track minimizing cool down. However, I don't warmers. yet. What affect would running warmers on Corsa IIIIs have (besides the obvious)? I jsut read the SR article: http://www.sportrider.com/tips/146_0810_ho...ires/index.html. The Pirelli dude says the tires should be 165F! The other concern is my own comfort. However, once you are out there and working I doubt the temperature will make that big a difference. Mornings have been cool anyway so I've been wearing winter silk stuff under my under suit. No problem moving around but by lunch it has to come off because I'm swetting like it is summer. That leaves the hands, mouth & nose. Being warm and sucking down cold air hurts. And frozen fingers are no fun. Run electrics for the gloves? Seems like I should have a fun winter expirementing with this. I'll be !@$#ed if I'm going to pay for track access and not go out there.

that was from May. I still had not shaken my fall downs from the previous year. I'm laughing at my comment about doing a 2:33 and being a decent pace. Your comments are all accurate. Unfortunately I forgot my laptop Sunday so I didnt bother running the camera. Next time out I'll be better organized. I'll also bring along my GPS recorder so I can get more information about what I'm doing. Btw- my speedo is taped. I just know that when the shift light for the ZX6 comes on I'm turning 15K RPM. In 3rd gear that is 125mph and 4th that is 145. Translation: this would be a good time to not screw up.

good points. One of the tricks I've learned with braking markers is to move them to the inside of the track. Most tracks have the markers on the outside. If you watch my videos you'll see them. Going down the back straight I'm getting up toward 140mph and then you have to toss it left in to an uphill crested off camber blind turn (say that 3 times fast). Talk about puckering up. Anyway, if you use the markers on the outside you'll just about park the bike. If you look first at the corner workstation and then the apex cone just behind it you'll carry more speed. However, this brings up a problem with what we are talking about: how the blazes do you 2 step a turn when your braking markers are on the inside and your TP is on the outside? Grow an extra set of eyes? Quick turning is fun. You think you are, but you really arent. Going through 1 & 2 I generally get the quick turn ok. But turns like 3, 6 and 7 I tend to turn pretty slowly. Something for me to think about. 4 soccers games this weekend so guess who won't be at the track? Then I have Dallas Startup Weekend next week so no track there either. So Thanks Giving weekend will be next opportunity. However, the girls have made it clear we are going dirt biking at least 1 day. Which also means somebody has to finish cleaning carbs. Big fun. Hopefully the weather will stay nice through December so I can work on this stuff some more.

ECR -> http://www.eaglescanyon.com/2008/home.php Just joined so I can get all the track time I have time for (meaning not a lot $#%@$#%@#$%) Some videos of me going (slowly) around the track: http://www.youtube.com/tweekscratch I label things pretty clearly. I have some video from some pretty fast riders going around ECR. Anyway - 2 step makes a lot of sense. I think my basic control of the bike is good and I have good lines so reference points make sense. I'll just have to go find RPs to look at to help me setup my entrances. The ECR track record is 1.39 in an open wheeler. I think the record on a bike is in the low 1.40s. My goal is just to get below 2 minutes. I would like ot see a 2:15 before New Years.

Sunday I did a 2:18.8 around ECR, a personal best. To be mid pack for a CMRA race I would need to lose another 10 seconds (I'm being genous to myself). PArt of my problem is entering corners. Once I'm in I generally get a good drive out. But I'm braking way too hard on the way in and not carrying much speed. One thing I've changed (which helped me get down to the 18s lap) is getting my eyes up. Is there an excercise or something I can do to help get myself entering corners a little faster? I realize that you don't just go out and add 5mph to everyting. But how do you add just 1? Or even just .1?

May 2006 I took the MSF class June 2006 I bought a 2006 Ninja 500 June 2007 I took Level 1 in Mid Ohio. so on and so forth. When do I get to be all grumpy and talk about the good old days?

I'd think carrying more speed through a corner would require more lean angle regardless of how you turn it in. Not quite. It is like changing the steering ratio on a car. If your car takes 2.5 turns to go from max left to max right and you put in a gear that only takes 1.5 turns what happens? You come up to the turn point at the same speed and turn in the wheel to the same angle but quicker (b/c of the faster steering ratio) you'll find yourself running off the inside of the track. Back on the bike, if you keep everything constant - speed, turn point, apex point and the line between and only change the speed that you get to max lean angle you'll end up riding off the track to the inside. So now change the max lean angle (the amount you turn in) and you go around the turn w/o dragging a knee Or move the TP up Or Go faster Of course putting all of this in to consistent practice is an entirely different matter.

I'd love to eventually be a coach for you guys. But at the moment I'm to pokey around the track to even bother. The way things are going I ought to be able to devote the time to being a coach by 2011.

He was at Barber last year when I did 3 & 4. He is an amazing rider. If he keeps it up he will be the next Ben Spies. Or better if CSS has anything to say about it.

Probably. ECR is an excellent track. 2.5 miles in length, lots of elevation changes. A number of the turns have blind entries so you have to have good RPs to go fast. The turn at the end of the longest straight is uphill, but crests. On the inside it is flat or off camber, but the outside is cambered, but you don't want to be there. My biggest complaint about the track is that parts of it feel like long straights connected by double apex sweepers. It doesnt quite flow, but the elevation changes make up for it. Turn 3 is a double apex going downhill Turn 4 is down hill Turn 5 is uphill Turn 7 is blind uphill and off camber Turns 8 and 9 are down hill in to a gully (it goes back to turn 4 and 5) Turn 10 is a steep uphill If you search for Ty Howard on YouTube you can get a pretty good idea of what the track is like to ride.

Hot & humid? where? That actually cracked me up when I went to Mid-Ohio. It was around 90 and people were talking about how hot it was! I'm like - huh? Last summer we had a few track days where the temperature passed 105F. You don't have any trouble remembering to drink water on those days. Wearing a camel back on track is even a good idea. The cool thing about this area (DFW) is that we can ride pretty much all year. Not exacty Cali style all year, it does get cold, but you can grab a track day in December and January if your schedule is flexible. The only problem now is that with spring the weather is completely unpredictable. This weekend we're going to go watch the CMRA races at ECR. Saturday is supposed to rain and be in the 50s. Last weekend was low 80s and beautiful. Give it ten minutes and it might snow.

glad you're understanding about the work thing. My project is starting to stabilize so I'm not pulling 12 and 14 hour days. Down side is that now I have to spend all my time writing documentation. blah. MSR is a great facility. Did you guys get to use the new 1.3mile track? I think it is a lot better than the 1.7miler. Better pavement, great elevation changes and some buttkicking turns. We now have Eagles Canyon on the other end of the metroplex giving us twice the choice! ECR is also great, but it is more stretched out and faster. The cool thing there is the blind entry in to several of the turns along with elevation changes. Given my schedule I'm not sure that I'll be able to make a CSS this year. I'd love too, but work keeps piling up. I hope to keep it that way this year and next. That way I'll be able to afford lots of track days.

Thanks all. Based on the feedback from various sources I've decided to invest the $400+ in to the suspension upgrades instead. Forks are going to be rebuilt with new valves and springs for me and a Penske or Ohlins shock in back. I can always add the damper later if I need it.

I have a 2007 ZX6R. I'm about to start tweeking it to make it entirely mine. One of the things on my shopping list is a steering damper. CSS uses a stem unit (GPR?). I've been told by a pro that the shaft type is better (Ty Howard - local fast guy). But I also see a lot of people saying 600cc bikes don't need dampers. I plan to spend a lot of time on the track and intend to get fast this year. I don't mind spending the money, but do I need to? Is there any benefit or is it just extra weight that the safety nazis want on the bikes? Also, which is better? Shaft style or stem style (or is it rotary?).????? Sorry for all the questions. I did a search and didnt really see this asked.

Lean bike - yes Slide bike - no. Sorry I didn't call. That freaking day job just keeps getting in the way. This week is going to be interesting too, but I'm taking Friday off to go visit the track. Might be a good time to give Mr. Wizard a call. The interesting piece is that sense doing one day some of the feeling is returning. It is still a long road, but I'm pretty confident I can do it again. I'm not sure when this year I'll get a chance to do another CSS session. At the moment the dance card is projected to be full up in to 2010. Not a bad thing work wise, but play is definately suffering. In case anybody is interested this is the track I'll be spending most of my time at this year: http://www.eaglescanyon.com/2008/home.php Very nice track w/ a number of double apex courners, blind entries, and lots elevation changes. The other two tracks I'll visit once or twice are: http://www.oakhillraceway.net/ - most awesome track in the world. nothing compares. guaranteed to to scare you. http://www.motorsportranch.com/1.3-road-course.cfm freaking awesome uphill left hander. the entire track is on the side of a hill so it is all elevation change. CSS should do a school at ECR or MSR. Either one would produce a big turn out.

Thanks Cobie. I'll give you a ring on Friday. For now the direction is going to be to keep going to ECR and rebuilding. I might invest some money in the ZX6's suspension just to make it feel better. However, I'm not even close to taking full advantage of what the stock suspenion is capable of right now. But good feedback from the bike makes it easier to feel comfortable.