Hotfoot
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Posts posted by Hotfoot
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How aggressive you can roll on depends on a variety of factors. But there are ways to tell if you rolled on too aggressively or are approaching the limit.
So, question to the group, what are some INDICATORS that you rolled the throttle on TOO aggressively in a corner?
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Electronics...yeah, might be a new thread. I'll mention one thing: when we switched from the 600's to the (at the time) most powerful street bike released, crashes went down over 35% at the School. We could take a look at why...see what comes up. Some people thought we were crazy.
Should we start a new thread on this, let me know what you guys think.
I think we have more than one already in existence on electronics - here are a couple I found with a quick search, and I saw another on ABS...
http://forums.superbikeschool.com/index.php?showtopic=3952&hl=electronics
and this one
http://forums.superbikeschool.com/index.php?showtopic=4536&hl=electronics#entry39864
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The sensors measure surface temp of the tire, here is a very affordable system:
http://www.revzilla.com/motorcycle/driven-racing-mantis-tire-temp-sensor#overview_tab
and a little description on installing it from Dave Moss tuning:
http://feelthetrack.com/testing-program/tire-testing/drivens-mantis-ir-sensor-technology/
It isn't terribly expensive (cheaper than a decent set of warmers... or tires, for that matter...) and I could see how it might be useful. Surface temp isn't the whole story but seeing the temps change while sitting on a starting line on a cool day could be educational, and finding out whether your tires are getting colder or hotter AS YOU RIDE on a cold windy or wet day might be very helpful. Certainly the info would get more useful as you got used to it and had some baseline info from your own experience to compare to. It might even help you catch a tire pressure or suspension setup problem, or prevent cold-tear on race tires - the system could pay for itself in one day if it prevented you from ruining a $400-$600 set of race tires in just a few laps.
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I had to look that up. My first thought was that it meant something equivalent to SOL.
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The front contact patch grows when some (or all) weight is transferred forward (increasing tire-asphalt friction), but the trail is reduced, which makes steering lighter (it requires less effort).
So you're saying that when braking, the bike will resist the rider's efforts to turn. Got it.
So... is it EASIER or HARDER to turn the bike on INITIAL turn-in, when braking hard?
More difficult to turn due to extra weight on the front tire makes sense, but, so does EASIER to turn due to change in geometry... I realized I don't know which is the greater effect Does the additional weight on the front under heaving braking create MORE extra effort than is offset by the change in geometry caused by the fork compression, or less? (I'm sure this will depend somewhat on suspension settings and maybe also tire profile and pressure, but let's assume a well set-up sport bike with sport/track tires, something like Q3s.)
In thinking about it, I realized I don't know from experience... because due to available traction on the front tire, I never TRY to turn the bike as quickly under heavy braking as I do if I am braking lightly or releasing the brake as I turn it. Since we are sharing available front tire traction between braking forces and turning forces, I would reduce my steering rate and lean angle under heavy braking, so there is no circumstance that I can think of where I would attempt to steer at exactly the same rate and at the entry same speed with and without hard braking to test whether the required steering effort changed.* It seems, in fact, like a difficult experiment to carry out, since accurately gauging the difference in your steering pressure while simultaneously attempting to brake hard and turn the bike quickly, PLUS hit the turn point at the exact same entry speed as you did with no or light brakes, seems like it would be quite difficult!
My personal sense of it is that the geometry change has a greater effect, so steering would be lighter under heavy braking, but my recent riding experience where I actually USE heavy braking is in racing where I am using a bike with a relatively soft front suspension and racing tires that are pretty stiff. I think a mushy front tire would make a BIG difference in how the turn-in would feel under hard braking.
(*Actually there is one circumstance I can think of, which is using the front brake in the middle of a chicane to get it to transition from side to side more quickly; that really would not fit my definition of HARD braking, but it would be making use of the effects of braking on steering - both the mid-corner effect of sudden braking causing the bike to want to stand up AND the compression of the forks helping it to rapidly steer the other direction.)
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Assuming the truth of what you say it leaves as most likely #1 - unwanted rider pressure on the bars.
That is by far the most common cause. How are you dealing with the braking forces? What parts of your body do you use to keep yourself from sliding/tipping forward under hard braking?
Well, I can tell you for certain that I don't habitually have a strong lower body lock under braking as I'm normally off the brakes by the time I'm ready to turn-in. Bar pressure hasn't been a concern and actually I've wanted to use bar pressure so I can "set" and feel the front end dive (stock suspension on this bike).
What do you think would happen to the front end under hard braking if you did NOT put any arm pressure on the bars? Would the braking forces still compress the forks?
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Hotfoot,
I know you get folks like this guy all the time- lots of experience in one area (most of it transferrable) but very little on streetbikes. How do you recommend that he get the requisite experience beforehand so that he can make the most of the school time?
The biggest piece is to get enough experience on a bike that working the controls is comfortable and not a distraction. If a rider is staring at their hands trying to remember which handlebar has the clutch and which has the brake, that would be a problem.
Sounds like the OP already is comfortable on a racetrack and familiar with the flags and general racetrack etiquette, so there will actually be LESS to absorb than most first-time CSS students, many of whom have never been on a racetrack, so general comfort and familiarity with riding a motorcycle is likely all that will be needed.
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Glad you liked that, Jaybird.
If you ever experience that feeling at a CSS school, mention it to your coach right away, the coaches have a WHOLE VARIETY of ways to fix it. It's like magic, and it is an enormous relief to go from that frustrated state back to the happy experience of riding well and having fun. -
It sounds like you are planning to do a 2 day camp as your first step - I think if I were you I'd wait until after that to decide on a bike. You'll have the best possible test ride on the BMW S1000rr at the school. Because of its various ride modes and nimble handling, it is actually quite an easy bike to ride and I think you'll find it friendly and an amazing amount of fun and if you are like most people you'll want to go right out and buy one.
That being said, it is not the cheapest bike out there to RUN at track days, since it eats more fuel and tires than, say, a Ninja 300 or an SV650, and of course costs more to begin with. If budget is a factor, you can often find a used race or track bike that has all the track mods already done for a lot less money than buying a new one and adding all the goodies. Most racers know they will never get their money back out of trick mods like exhaust, suspension, rearsets, timers, etc. and a used race bike can be a good deal.
(By the way the school SELLS the fleet of S1000rrs at year end every year and that is a good deal, too - between my husband and I we have bought three of them and been very happy!)
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Assuming the truth of what you say it leaves as most likely #1 - unwanted rider pressure on the bars.
That is by far the most common cause. How are you dealing with the braking forces? What parts of your body do you use to keep yourself from sliding/tipping forward under hard braking?
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Great post, Llnewqban.
"Anticipation of some imagined bad result" is the EXACT THING that I don't want to deal with when riding on the track, and THAT is the type of thinking I don't want to be doing during ANY kind of riding. That is where the education, understanding, training and practice come together for me.
If, for example, my bike suddenly starts making a weird noise or vibration, I start thinking of possibilities of what could be wrong and how that could create a bad result. (Is the engine going to quit? Will the rear wheel lock up? Is something dragging? Can I still lean it over as far? Do I have a tire failing? Is the transmission losing a gear?) and THAT will slow me down and create anxiety. That sort of anxiety ruins my riding and my fun and as far as I'm concerned has no useful purpose; there are an infinite set of possibilities you can IMAGINE going wrong, after all.
I am better off to get off the track, figure it out/ fix it, then get back to riding.Trying to practice a technique that I do not understand or believe in can create a similar feeling, unless I see an immediate benefit, when I try it, that proves it to me. If I don't see an immediate benefit, and I don't understand the purpose, I just ride around and worry about it and about my lack of understanding, and how I must be doing it wrong, and whether it will cause me to ride worse, and whether other people understand it, and maybe there is some OTHER reason is isn't working for me like maybe it is not suitable for my type of riding or its the wrong type of bike or tires or suspension setup, maybe I am just being dense, blah blah blah, see the problem?
How much attention can you devote to observation of traction, lean angle, speed, etc. (or even the results of trying the drill!) when you are so inwardly focused?On the other hand, if I know where I am and what I am doing, and something changes (like a false neutral) I can observe that and make a fast, trained, confident decision; it's a very quick thought process without a lot of questions or thinking through a lot of possible scenarios and imagined bad results. It's still thinking (per RChase's post), but much quicker than if you had no information, understanding and/or experience to work with. At the school we sometimes refer to it as "thinking with" the information - you understand it well enough, you can apply it quickly and with certainty, instead of worrying or dithering.
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I agree that I wouldn't want to change anything before a race if it can possibly be avoided - I don't want to be distracted by anything at all and thinking/worrying about "what the bike might do" with a different set up would commandeer some of my attention, and that kind of distraction can lead to errors and would almost certainly affect my riding pace. Riding consistently and without errors is one of my biggest strengths as a racer, and not getting distracted (by worrying about something, for example) is a big part of that.
I would be hesitant to change anything AT ALL, even with my gear - like different gloves or different earplugs. I definitely wouldn't change anything significant on the bike, unless I was having a huge problem in practice that was preventing me from being competitive and was forced to fix it.
I WOULD, however, possibly change something in "my overall plan" (as you mentioned above) between practice and the race, or even during the race, depending on what the competition turned out to be like. If I did a good job finding good reference points and had done a change lines drill, this would be possible without having to give it a lot of attention - I could easily adjust my line to deal with passing (or holding off a pass from a competitor) or adjust to changing conditions (like a new patch of oil-dry or other debris on the track, which happens a lot) without having to give it a lot of thought/attention. The outcome of the start of the race can affect this - if I get a great start and can run out front, I can ride my preferred line but if I end up mid-pack I can be regularly forced off my line and have to deal with that without getting rattled or slowed down. Good reference points create so much certainty that there is no concern or distraction created by having to make changes on the fly, no need to re-evaluate everything every time.
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How about coming into a corner fast and hitting a false neutral? That puts you into a situation where there really isn't time to think; all of a sudden you have a later turn point and higher entry speed and you certainly don't have time to contemplate how to steer the bike, understanding steering and having practiced quick turn kept me upright and on the track more than once in THAT situation.
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Makes sense so far. What's next?
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Even more important than what weather you will ride in is "how will you adapt your riding to take for the present conditions". Those conditions could be rain or cold or even extreme heat. Failing to adapt to the conditions could put you at risk for a costly mistake. You might have visited a track hundreds of times but every time you go it's different conditions each time. The amount of grip that you have changes based on these conditions.
This is so very true! Well said.
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OK, given "where to turn the bike" as the top of the list on priorities, if you are approaching a turn and have chosen a point, what conditions or observations would make you CHANGE your turn point as you are approaching it? (Aside from something obvious like suddenly noticing an object on the road that prevents you from using the one you chose.) Are you constantly re-evaluating your choice as you approach the turn point or do you pick one and just run with it?
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I hardly ever ride on the street anymore but for a dirt of dual-sport ride, below around 45 degrees (assuming it is not raining or windy) is where I start to say "no thanks." If it is raining, I don't think I'd want to go if it was below about 55 F, I don't have good enough gear to stay warm in conditions that are BOTH cold and wet.
For track riding, if I've hauled my butt over there to ride, I'm gonna ride. The coldest temp I've ridden for a morning race practice was 27 deg F, and I've raced in Vegas with snowflakes starting to come down.
My "no-go" criteria is usually based on safety, not comfort. If I thought the track was unsafe I would not ride, but in my experience most track day/race orgs/schools would make that call before me. Or, if fellow riders were riding unsafely, I might decline to ride - I have decided to sit out a cold morning race practice because I was seeing so many falls and did not want to get caught up in someone else's crash.High winds would make me think twice - I definitely wouldn't take a street ride in winds above about 40-50 mph, and at the track if I was on a small bike like my Moriwaki, I'd stop when the bike started to get pushed significantly sideways (more than about 8 feet sideways scares me!!) However, at a race I would definitely run in windy conditions - that has been an advantage for me in the past, as paying attention to changing conditions and good riding technique have kept me riding well when some competitors were misjudging entry speed and running wide (or off the track) due to not noticing and accounting for the extra push from the wind!
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Interesting question. The fastest riders are not always great coaches, in facts my experience is that most of them are not.
I think to be a great coach you have to be a great observer. Some people are just very good at recognizing patterns by watching riders. They usually have very good visual skills. But I think you also have to be a caring person and have good human skills. You must care about others.
I agree on these points, another I would add is being a good communicator. For example, I have had someone very knowledgeable try to explain something to me but using very vague terms that didn't adequately convey the meaning, and although he tried to rephrase he kept using the same vague word and I found it frustrating.
(Specific example, in this case, the phrase was "you are behind", but it was never clarified to me if that meant body position, throttle timing, vision, steering, etc., even though I asked a lot of questions trying to figure it out. Without specific data, I couldn't FIX the problem, I just knew there was one... very distracting.)
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I found it using better search terms. And the title of this thread should have been "forum search". I'm not convinced that it's my own carelessness causing the spelling errors- I blame it on auto-incorrect.
That damn fell speck, it gets me too.
I started using the Swype app on my iPhone and it is amazing but the changes it makes sometimes on my behalf are scary.I fixed the title.
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Yes, he makes note that it's something unique that Pedrosa does and is an exception to (can't recall). It doesn't sound like he's recommending it, but it's tough to resist the allure the way he explains the benefit of spinning the tire before it hooks up and drives you forward.
Sounds like more of a dirt track type of technique where you slide the back end around to get it pointed in the direction you want to go, then stand it up and drive hard. Not something for the faint of heart, on a sport bike; you would have to be willing to really let the back slide and you'd have to be capable of very fine control to not crash it.
The best place to learn that sort of technique (sliding the back end around that way) is on dirt on a small dirtbike, where the consequences of error are less severe and the idea of practicing it is a lot less intimidating.
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Who you callin man, manHobbies...a man after my own heart.
HA HA HA now I'm even HAPPIER to have you here on the forum. : D
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I hypothesize that the effects that we observe on this matter have a different cause than that which has been attributed. I hypothesize that provided the tires "stick" that the same circle diameter can be run at same lean angles and different speeds. I hypothesize that the reasons for the change in lean angle required is to handle the greater suspension load. Which brings to mind that we cannot use pneumatic tires for the experiment for they would absorb some of the load that the suspension would normally be tasked to do. I recon that this works only in ranges and that they would be evenly spaced and linear.
Sounds like a project that will have you reading a lot of prior motorcycle/bicycle research. Maybe you can find an experiment someone has done with bicycles with solid tires and no suspension.
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I was thinking that something like this would allow execution of this experiment
After having given some thought to this, an RC vehicle doesn't work well due to the fact that they need a gyro-stabilization system...and I have my doubts about them being true counter-steered vehicles.
Dylan posted something a couple weeks ago about a guy (long Greek name, starting with "P") who explored the mathematics of bicycles. Thinking with that I posit what would be the best tool for exploration of the relationship between lean angle, turning radius and throttle % (and rate of change). IMO, the best tool for this would be the NO BS BIKE but it would have to be modified to lock the front and rear suspension in a static position in travel, otherwise the interaction and change in geometry would affect the results of the experiment. After locking the suspension in place, then the bike could be restored and a data acquisition system could be added to measure and record fork and shock travel through the circle maneuver for real-world application. Every effort should be made to ensure rider input once established in the turn is limited to only throttle.
Thoughts?
What is it you are trying to figure out with the experiment? If you take out the hard-to-predict variables like suspension movement and a rider moving around, you can directly calculate the relationship between speed, arc, and lean angle, there is a relatively simple formula for that. Here's kind of a fun article from Wired on the topic: https://www.wired.com/2015/09/just-far-can-motorcycle-lean-turn/
You couldn't directly relate that the throttle % because that varies by speed, gear, engine size, and the throttle travel characteristics of the bike (for example, a quick-turn throttle would not have to be moved as much as a standard one). And you'd have to turn the throttle a lot more on a YSR50 to get from 45 mph to 50 mph on a circle (probably close to wide open, actually), where the S1000rr would do it with a much smaller % roll-on in 1st or 2nd gear. And as any rider can easily observe, it takes a lot more of a roll-on to increase speed in a higher gear than in a lower one - if you enter a turn in too high a gear, it is much more difficult to get acceleration than if you are right in the power band of the motorcycle, so the amount (%) you have to roll on the throttle changes.
If you just want to know how much you have to turn the throttle to maintain (or increase) speed on your own type of motorcycle ( or how much the bike would "hook" in hook turn position, if that is what you are trying to compute), it would seem far simpler to just take your own bike out to a parking lot and ride some circles and just try it, see how much you have to turn the throttle to notice an increase in speed and radius, or observe that as speed comes up you have to lean it more to maintain the same radius, etc.
After all, no theory or description in a book would be nearly as meaningful as directly observing it for yourself, right?
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Body is stable and bike is coming vertical underneath by pulling on the inside bar.
Reason I thought of this question is that (it seems to work BTW) by pulling on the inside bar, we've introduced a more abrupt steering input than the gradual one we'd normally use to stand up at the end of the corner, lest we turn it into a circle- not what we want to produce.
But that steering input has the front and rear wheel not in line with each other for a slice of time and there's still some cornering forces present even with the bike nearly upright. Now we get the rear propelling the bike forward with grip and I'm just wondering if it's possible to highside to the outside of the corner.
Keep in mind my bike doesn't have traction, wheelie control, etc except my right hand. I found NCBike T11 (leading onto the front straight) an exceptionally fun place to practice the Pickup.
Well, sure it is possible to highside out of the corner.
But, are you better off to keep the thing leaned over while driving hard or use that bit of steering input to get it upright? Which scenario do you think is more likely to prevent a highside?And, if the bike begins to slide, and you are already in the process of picking it up, would that give you a better chance of regaining traction and not crashing?
I'm not sure I entirely follow your concern about the steering input - was there something that happened to you when using the pickup that created this question, or is this a purely a speculative thought?
Either way - to follow the thought through - yes the steering input would put the wheels out of alignment very briefly; I suppose potentially if the front wheel was very light it could push (slide) but it does not appear to me that this would create any instability, it would just be a less effective steering input and the bike might not come upright as quickly as desired. As you have no doubt seen in racing, if the bike is still leaned over out of a corner and in a wheelie, it will maintain the same lean angle; you might want to have a look at the "Steer for the Rear" section in Twist of the Wrist II, it is Chapter 13 and may be helpful to you.
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I remember that, I was behind you and thought for sure you were going down, couldn't believe it slid that much and stayed upright.