Hotfoot
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Posts posted by Hotfoot
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Frist question: does it do it every lap, every turn? If the problem only happens sometimes, it is almost certainly a rider issue.
Typically at a school the coach would follow the student very closely, so that their rate of acceleration throughout the corner (both slowing at the beginning and accelerating later in the turn) matches, and observe, watching the rider and the bike and the line the bike follows. If there is a noticeable difference in line or acceleration rates, the coach would be looking for rider errors and many of them are visible either in the rider's position, or in the way their bike is reacting.
What errors can YOU think of that a coach might be able to see, either by observing the rider or by observing the bike's line or acceleration rate? Let's say you are closely following another rider and you see that they are wide at the apex by a few feet and end up wide on the exit. The corner is a little bumpy so you can see the how the rider is affected by that. The rider is sitting reasonably upright. You also notice that right after the turn point the rider pulls suddenly away from you a little bit, but later in the corner (near the exit) you run up on them a bit and have to back off the throttle.There are a whole variety of errors that could be occurring, which ones can you think of?
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And I will use this "If you can hit the turn-in point and still make the apex, you turned in quickly enough." to review it all. Thank you for this eye-opener.
If you wanted to enter that same turn with a higher entry speed, what would you have to do with your turn rate to still make that same apex?
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At the end of the day you'll receive a booklet that outlines all the drills and the formats practiced during each day. The booklet contains the drills with tons of annotated references to "Twist of the Wrist" and "Soft Science of Roadracing Motorcycles."
Take these booklets to your regular track-day and you can recreate the entire CSS day. Track days as homework!? Nice!
I lost my booklets. Does anyone know how to get new ones?
I'm sure you can call the office and they can send them to you, for the levels you attended.
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I just tried to do it your way and crashed. Send a check or money order promptly.
Thanks for the run down. And I'm def coming back for L4 early 2017.
Just to be clear tho, you say you're also on the balls of your feet during braking so how do you downshift?
I started playing my position a couple of days ago and I feel like I'm making a little progress. My inside knee, after shifting over, can get a lot of force on the tank if push longitudinally rather than laterally. So with the inside knee, I'm making contact more with the front rather than the side. Then my leg is much stronger driving my thigh/knee forward into the side of the tank.
BTW, I also have Stompgrip. Not a fan of the looks so never thought I would but after trying them in CSS I realized they're a must have.
Please tell me you are kidding, I will lose sleep over it otherwise!!!
Good point, you are right about the downshifts. I do move my foot forward when it is time to shift, and in this particular example corner I am coming down three gears; I think I do two shifts then shift my hips then do the third one. For sure all the shifts are done before I release my inside knee. I do all clutchless downshifts so I do three separate shifts (versus pulling in the clutch and trying to do multiple shifts at once, I think some people do it that way but the lack of engine braking and lack of certainty that you are in the right gear bother me). I'm pretty sure once I move my foot forward to shift, it stays there for all three shifts but definitely comes back afterwards to the ball of the foot, I'm careful to do that otherwise I tend to drag my toe in the corners.
Glad you're making some progress on staying locked in, with driving your knee forward, that makes sense.
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First let me say that nothing I say here can compare to actually getting you to a school where a coach can work with you in person on your bike (or ours), observe what you do on track, and address the problem with observation, suggestions, experimentation right there at the track.
Also, telling you what I do might not be directly helpful, as we are undoubtedly built differently and riding different bikes, tracks, etc.
So with all that said, here is what I do for the hardest braking corner I can think of - an extremely hard braking zone followed by a tight low speed corner and chicane. On the straightaway, right before letting off the throttle I clamp BOTH knees very tightly to the tank, tighten up my core muscles (abs and lower back, and quads) then I let off the gas and apply the front brake only (I don't use the rear brake). I get the bulk of the hard braking done quickly and with the bike vertical. Then, roughly halfway through my braking zone (in distance), I shift my hips over for the turn, WITHOUT letting off the pressure on the tank with both knees. Then I begin my gradual brake release as I get close to the turn point, then shift my upper body over, then at the turn point I release my inside knee (opening it into the corner) as I am turning the bike and continuing my brake release until full release a little after the turn point.
In this particular corner the initial braking is SO hard that I prefer to do it centered on the seat with both knees clamped hard on the tank. I tighten my core to absorb the forces, and the balls of my feet are on the pegs. I shift my hips over during braking, but that is NOT the normally recommended procedure from CSS, and has the potential for upsetting the bike - the usual recommendation is to shift the hips BEFORE you let off the gas, because the bike is more stable while on the gas. For most any other corner I DO shift my hips before letting off the gas, but in this corner the braking is extreme and the corner afterwards is slow and tight, so I make the choice to shift my hips partway through the braking zone; I do it smoothly, using my knees and make sure not to add any bar input. If the bike were leaned over while braking I would probably not attempt that.
I will say that in really extreme braking on something that stops as quickly as the S1000rr, it is very difficult to have ZERO pressure on your arms, I just try to keep it as little as possible, and keep it even from side to side (so the back end doesn't come around) and keep my arms parallel to the ground, because pushing DOWN on the bars can overload the front and/or contribute to a stoppie. I have trained myself to consciously relax my arms as much as possible as soon as I start applying that front brake, that is part of my brake sequence, and make sure to relax them completely as the deceleration forces come down at the end of braking.
Also for what it is worth, on one of my bikes that has a very narrow gas tank, I added a pad at the back of the tank (crotch area) as a stop point to keep me from sliding forward so far. I simply could not grip the narrow tank hard enough with my knees to prevent sliding forward. The pad is about 3" thick, built up from layers of seat foam, and wraps around the end of the tank giving me a little extra grip on the sides too. I also have StompGrip on ALL my bikes, even my YSR50.
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Wearing sunglasses can help cut down the air blowing into your eyes, if you can find some that fit comfortably with your helmet.
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Is this a trial and error thing or is there a tool that can help?
I've visually setup my rearsets to where I think they should go. A test ride, confirms that it isn't set where they should be. The pegs are set to their lowest and most forward position and I'm getting used to it, nothing I can do about it until my knees and ankles break-in (LoL), but I can get the levers down lower and that's the part that bugs me. If I go too low then getting under the shifter is a problem, too high and I can't get good leverage.
The brake side to adjust needs to come undone at the master cylinder and the threaded rod is turned a couple turns.
Am I just impatient and this takes time to do? Or is there a faster way to setup a bike? A gauge? I can't see the levers positions when I'm riding, so I am unable to duplicate the correct angle. No wonder I never fiddled with my previous bike; once I get it set where I want, I tend to leave things alone. Don't get me started on someone adjusting the EQ settings on my stereo....
What I have seen done, that seems to work for getting the shift lever to a good position, is to get some masking tape and a helper (no technical expertise needed), sit on the bike and put your feet in their normal riding position. Have the helper visually estimate the position that will line up the shift lever to the middle of the ball of your foot, then put bits of tape above and below where the lever should go. The idea is for the lever to end up in the space between two bits of tape. Then you adjust the lever to the marked position, hop back on and see if that allows you to shift up and down comfortably. If not, you have a marked starting point and you can either adjust the tape or mark on the tape a new estimated position. It's much easier to tweak it and dial it in if you have a good starting point. I usually leave the tape on until after my next decent length ride in case I find that I need to adjust it a little differently later.
The brake lever is much easier since you don't have to worry about getting under it.
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Well, pressure on the bars DOES contribute to lifting of the rear wheel, usually not a desirable result, especially if you feel obligated to wait for it to come back to earth before you turn the bike. In the top picture especially it looks like the rider is bracing his arms and pressing not only forward but down on the bars, which begs the question - if he could get some pressure OFF the bars (by finding a better lower body lock) could he keep the rear wheel down under the same amount of braking?
Speaking of which, what do you think: if you were at your turn point and your rear wheel was still in the air, do you think you could get it turned? I was faced with that EXACT decision not too long ago in a qualifying lap. My gut feeling was that I could have made the turn but I knew there was a rider right behind me and I didn't want to get hit if I fell, so I went a past my turn point to let the rear tire come down before turning it. I still wonder if I could have got it turned with the rear wheel slightly off the ground. If anyone can find a good photo of a racer turning it with the rear wheel still off the ground, I'd like to see it. (Stunt rider stoppies don't count! I know they can do it at slow speeds - I just wonder if there is enough traction AT SPEED around a corner to make it, if you turn in without the rear tire on the pavement.)
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If you scoot back a little in the seat, can you get your knee into the tank to get a better grip during braking? Also you could potentially keep your INSIDE knee on the tank, too (squeezing both knees into the tank), during the heaviest braking, releasing the inside knee when you initiate your turn-in. Stompgrip is great if you don't already have it. Tightening your core muscles (your midsection) can help keep the pressure on your lower body instead of letting it fall forward onto your arms.
If sliding forward is a persistent problem, you can fashion a pad on the back of the tank out of seat foam to prevent you from sliding forward too far.
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I think I went through this same ordeal doing car track days and I think the fix might be similar. Back then (~2002) I decided to keep it simple and just forget about shifting for a few sessions. Don't worry about shifting and don't worry about even hitting the apex. Forget about lap times and just set a modest goal of staying on the track. With things simplified as much as possible, just get up the nerve (mind over matter) knowing that I have plenty of time to finish braking so stop chickening out. Then go through the corner in the wrong gear. At least I'll be building up experience being WOT in the scary part of the track (end of the straight) until it's not scary anymore. Once it's not scary, I can then go back and try shift properly.
Also, I think another thing that's coming back to me is that part of my hang up going into turn 1 (Thunderhill) is that it's not a heavy braking zone. Turn 1 is so fast you just need to scrub off a little speed before turning in. So it will also help to trust the brakes if I remind myself how little braking you actually need to do there.
This sounds like a good plan, and good solutions. For sure breaking things down into individual steps is a GREAT way to approach the problem, and exactly what we would do at the school - take one aspect at a time to discharge the fear from each (as needed) then add the other aspects back in, with the ultimate goal of leaving you enough free attention to handle downshifting, etc. without feeling rushed or panicky.
Also, as YellowDuck mentioned, there are some situations where you may end up better off going through the corner in a higher gear, unless you are on something like an RS125 with a very narrow power band. When I first got my current racebike it was prone to false neutrals and therefore downshifting became very distracting, so I did some experiments in a couple of corners with a laptimer and in both corners found that there was almost no difference in the overall time through the corner when I stayed a gear higher; I carried more speed when I stayed in the higher gear but got a slightly better drive with the lower gear, it basically balanced out. You could try that experiment too, and see if that challenging downshift is really gaining you anything. If nothing else, the data let me know exactly how much time I would or would not lose if I chose (under race pressure) not to make the downshift in those spots.
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The first step will be to find out what is capturing your attention and keeping you from getting the result you want; what is the thing causing your hesitation? Your coach and consultant will work through that with you; sometimes an issue with braking turns out to be rooted in something else, like visuals, or a weak lock on that causes the rider to lean on the bars during braking, etc.
If the issue turns ot to be with braking itself, working through the plan of how much brake pressure to apply and when can help. If you were to draw a graph showing your pressure on the brake lever over time as you approach a turn, what would it look like? What SHOULD it look like?
And there's the brake rig exercise off-track which allows you to explore the limits of braking and how to recover from a slide.
Tell your Level 4 consultant that you want to work on braking and you and your coach and your consultant will work together through the day to create a customized plan for you. There's a nice variety of of Level 4 drills available that address braking. -
As I am upgrading my CBR600RR piece by piece, I'm becoming more sensitive to suspensions quality (and their price). I want to buy a new bike and my choice will be skewed towards the suspensions package.
Which stock bike offers the best track/racing suspensions, other than the factory models?
I'm not sure I understand the question - what do you mean "other than the factory models"? It seems like most of the top end bikes now offer a standard model, AND a "race" model that has upgraded suspension components. It's a tough call whether you are better off getting the suspension upgrades offered by the manufacturer, or buy aftermarket. Aftermarket can have the advantage of local and ongoing support - some shops will send a tech out to the track with you to set everything up, and the setup is crucial to getting everything working right for YOU, plus you have practically unlimited choices, which can be both an advantage and a disadvantage, since it can be hard to know which will work best for you. My choice had been to find a very knowledgeable pro (either a race pro or suspension pro) that is familiar with my riding and take recommendations from them, and that has worked well for me, maybe you can look for someone at the track?
Personally I think the best value is to buy someone's race bike with the upgrades already done. Racers put thousands into their bikes and know that they will most likely never get that money back, you can often buy a bike with massive upgrades for a fraction of the cost of buying it all new.
If cost is not really a factor, the really top end bikes tend to have the top end components - BMW, Ducati, etc., and the most plentiful bikes (Yamaha, Honda, Suzuki) tend to have the most variety of aftermarket upgrades available.
And then there is electronically controlled suspension, like the BMW S1000rr, which is in a class by itself. If you haven't ridden a 2015 or 2016 you definitely should try that out, it is pretty amazing, and the combo of being able to adjust engine characteristics AND suspension characteristics, on the fly, without expert help or tools or an assistant, is AWESOME. You can just press some buttons and change profiles and really experiment with a lot of options.
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I borrowed the AGVsport one piece grey leather track suit at the CSS 2-day camp but can't recall the model name of the suit. Does anyone here know the model name of the AGVsport one piece suits the students' use? I'm interested in purchasing one but don't know the name of the actual model.
Any assistance would be appreciated.
A student in this thread:
http://forums.superbikeschool.com/index.php?showtopic=4518
mentions that the Podium is the model/style the school uses, and he posted a picture and they do look like the same model, might want to take a look at that thread.
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From Jeremiah, Superbike School mechanic:
The only thing I would add to what Dylan posted on that is that if he goes with an exhaust, the servos will need to be disconnected. He would keep the boxes intact and plugged in, just remove the cables from the stock exhaust and allow the servo motors on the bike to move freely. Also stay away from power commanders. The stock computer is much smarter and will over ride them anyway. Also verify the bike is not equipped with ddc. Trying to throw springs in forks that are electronic won't work but if he bought the model with standard suspension then he can upgrade.
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I've alerted Dylan and the school mechanic to your post to get you some answers on the suspension, aftermarket exhaust, and power profile for the exhaust.
I'll throw in one quick thing, it is very easy to adjust or disable the ABS electronically. To turn it off, you can cycle the traction control button on the handlebar, when you see the ABS light on the dash come on solid you have disabled ABS. That same button can also disable Traction Control. Or you can go into the menu to set your profile to make the ABS more or less aggressive to taste (using the ride modes), and if you have the Slick chip (as I assume you will) you could also use the +/- rocker switch on the handlebar to adjust traction control to more or less invasive, it is REALLY easy to change it.
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I know on the BMW S1000rr, the Slick mode changes throttle response and significantly reduces engine braking, which can help carry more speed into corners and reduce the effect of a jerky roll-off, I like riding in that mode as it definitely helps me roll into corners with more entry speed. It takes some getting used to, though, it feels a lot different. Or, the Race ECU package allows you to get in and set ALL KINDS of parameters on throttle response and engine braking, tuning it exactly how you want it.
I think it would be a nice thing to add on to a sportbike, if it is affordable and can be done - did you check to see if it voids the warranty to re-flash the ECU? What does it cost? Doesn't a Power Commander with dyno tuning address the throttle response for both on roll on and roll off, or is it only for roll-on?
As far as the throttle control rules go... do you remember Throttle Control Rule #2?
No, I don't remember TC #2. I do n't see how it would void the warranty as you can put the software back to stock if you wanted to. I am not sure if the PC-V will do roll-off.
The Race ECU and RCK kit allows you to fiddle with practically everything which is why the warranty becomes an issue. Potentially you could damage the engine by messing around with timing of internal operations and understandably the factory might not want to replace an engine someone damaged by discarding the reliable factory tested values and substituting their own creative experiments using the RCK.
I'm surprised nobody has offered up TC Rule #2, haul out your copies of Twist of the Wrist II and take a look! Here's a hint, it is in Chapter 6...
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I know on the BMW S1000rr, the Slick mode changes throttle response and significantly reduces engine braking, which can help carry more speed into corners and reduce the effect of a jerky roll-off, I like riding in that mode as it definitely helps me roll into corners with more entry speed. It takes some getting used to, though, it feels a lot different. Or, the Race ECU package allows you to get in and set ALL KINDS of parameters on throttle response and engine braking, tuning it exactly how you want it.
I think it would be a nice thing to add on to a sportbike, if it is affordable and can be done - did you check to see if it voids the warranty to re-flash the ECU? What does it cost? Doesn't a Power Commander with dyno tuning address the throttle response for both on roll on and roll off, or is it only for roll-on?
As far as the throttle control rules go... do you remember Throttle Control Rule #2?
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Yep, that's the one. Alan Cunningham from SaferMoto sells them and he is a racer and overall good guy and knowledgeable on the product, if I get one it will be from him. I'm not sure if he's back from Isle of Mann yet though.
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What added Preventative Maintenance do you do on your Track / Race bike to offset the extreme nature of its use ??
Good question! Before every race weekend we do oil changes, clean calipers, clean carbs on the items that have them (including the pit bike), drain and replace any older fuel, change tires on the S1000rrs and check the tires on the lightweight bikes. We safety wire EVERYTHING, change brake pads often (at least a few times a year), service the suspension once a year. Check valve clearances about once a year. We use race-grade brake fluid and change it once or year, or sooner if it starts getting darker in color or the brakes fade or feel mushy. We carry spare battery and spark plug and some plastic fuel line, and oil and brake fluid. I'm sure there is more, that is a list off the top of my head.
I also do a lot more preventative maintenance on my tow vehicle and trailer, and generator, to avoid any problems getting to/from race weekends (learned that the hard way, of course). Tires, brakes, battery, oil changes, etc. are handled at first hint of a problem OR when or before scheduled maintenance is recommended, and everything gets a good looking over a week or two before an upcoming event - this week it was batteries for the toy hauler and in working on those I found that the stabilizer bar attachments on the hitch had rotated slightly (they are designed to move around some) and the propane tanks had slid back some and a metal hitch mount part was rubbing on a propane tank as we were driving down the road. Eek, that seems dangerous! So I spent some time moving things around and adding some isolation to prevent that from happening again.
I will say that racing has positively catapulted me into becoming a lot more mechanical. Before racing I sent everything to a shop to be done, but I have been forced to learn to do a ton of stuff myself, partly because of time constraints and necessity of fixing something on the spot, but also because of numerous occasions where a shop or mechanic left something undone, half done, or improperly done. I used to think it was much safer and smarter to "leave it to the professionals" but now I am not so sure. :/
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Does anyone make an add-on airbag system?
There are vests you can wear over the leathers, much less expensive option and I see them a lot at club racing events. Here is a link to some info:
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So this weekend I got out for a short ride on my little dual-sport bike, and it struck me... I don't think I have EVER changed the brake pads on this bike, and the brakes still feel new. It's a 2003. So, I've had the darn thing almost 13 years and NEVER changed the brake pads. And it never wears out tires, either. Yet on my race bike... tires every race weekend and brakes pads a couple of times a year, at least.
I had no clue when I started racing the amount of wear and tear and maintenance involved in the whole enterprise, or the difference in the riding intensity.
I'm guessing Yellowduck knows what I'm talking about - I thought of your awesome blog posts last night as we were trying to fit a new set of fairings (drilling the mounting holes, etc.) in the toyhauler, working half by flashlight and half by the weak toyhauler interior lights, getting very cold and hoping the neighbors weren't upset at us running a drill after 11pm.
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I'm still trying to figure out how to reduce the amount of pressure I feel in my hands when I'm heavy on the brakes heading into a corner. I keep my arms bent but somehow some force is traveling through them. I'm also working on my core strength a bit so I can support myself better without that energy transferring into the bars.
It's one of the things holding me back slightly from braking like a pro. Along with many other things of course.
I'm not sure it is realistic to expect to be 100% off the bars when braking hard on the S1000rr, there is a LOT of force to contend with. Personally I try to absorb as much as possible with legs and core, and then just make sure any force on the bars is parallel to the ground, instead of downwards. Keeping the upper body low and elbows bent helps with that. Also you want avoid UNEVEN pressure on the bars as this can create tail wagging or make the rear end come around.
For sure core strength and leg strength help tremendously, along with good tank grip pads. Are you keeping both knees in the tank when braking hard? When do you release your inside knee?
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I was shocked at the weight of the front fairing stay (which supports headlight, etc.) on my husband's Ducati when he took it off to replace the front fairings with race fairings.
And for sure removing the stock exhaust and catalytic converter on virtually any bike is a huge weight reduction.
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I just got a response from Ohlins. It turns out that the stock spring (which I have) works well for her goal weight numbers, She's just 5lbs shy of the recommended range.
It sounds like her losing 5+ lbs and THEN changing the springs is the ideal solution.
We haven't attempted to set sag, which I know is the correct order of operations to know for sure if the spring needs to be changed out. I figure they usually get you in a good ballpark with math calculations on spring selection which makes setting preload a breeze.
I have two suggestions:
1) You should NOT, under any circumstances, suggest to her that she ought to lose 5 lbs.
2) Consider including suspension setup at her first track day with the track day suspension guy (if your trackday provider has one) as part of the gift, they can set sag for her with all her gear right there at the track. It's usually not very expensive, in the $40-$60 range. Usually the fee includes setting sag first thing in the morning, then making a few adjustments throughout the day to dial in the settings to the rider's liking. Then she and the suspension guy can evaluate whether the current springs and valving will work for her, and whether there is any maintenance that needs doing.
You can have a local bike shop set sag but I haven't had the best luck with that myself (I even had a tech at a shop tell me "you don't need to set sag, it doesn't matter"), the trackday suspension guys are usually much more efficient with it, and understand more clearly why it is needed!
Hello From Sacramento
in School Questions/General Discussion
Posted
Howdy and welcome. Love seeing more ladies on the forum! What do you ride, what kind of riding do you do? Also where do you do ski patrol, living in Sacramento?