Hotfoot
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Posts posted by Hotfoot
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Thanks to all for the advice and ideas. Here's what I ended up doing, in case anyone else finds the info useful.
First I tried the really cool Pit Bull forward-handle rear stand, which I thought would be easier to use, since I could operate it from the side of the bike while still holding the handlebar. Turns out, though, it's very high effort. The handle is rather short and doesn't have much angle to it, so it takes quite a bit of force to get the bike up on the stand. I still think it's a terrific concept, but I found the standard rear-handle Pit Bull so much easier to use that I bought that instead.
For the front stand I got the Lockhart Phillips pin type stand that sits under the forks. I got the aluminum one, and it is incredibly light weight, cool looking, and well designed. I feels like it weighs less than half what the Pit Bull fork lift front stand weighs, and I found it to be quicker to put in place and require less effort to lift the bike. I highly recommend it, it is by far the lightest stand I've seen and has really good leverage and smooth operation.
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A mini reply: if the front suspension moves less, that would make a more solid pivot (with less preload),wouldn't that make it easier to turn?
Yes - but I guess it had not occurred to me that the bike front suspension would move during a hard left-right transition. Wouldn't it just stay compressed?
What state is the suspension in midway through a turn Hotfoot? What position is the suspension in when the bike is stood upright (say going in a straight line)?
Bullet
This might get long, sorry... To answer your prior question, the bike was set up by In House suspension, when they did the Ohlins internals on the front, and it has an Elka rear shock. Will Eikenberry from CSS has tweaked it as well, and the bike is set a bit higher in the back than stock, per Will's recommendation. It is set up for me, but we were doing a little fine tuning with it and tweaked the pre-load based on Suspension Guy's observation that my transitions through a particular tight chicane were pretty slow. The change in preload (two turns) made a dramatic difference, the transition was way easier and quicker. We did go on to adjust compression and rebound to get rid of the bouncing. When we tried adding more preload the bike got unstable under acceleration, nasty headshake, so we went back to where it was. I can give you exact sag setting measurements as taken that day if that would be useful.
Not sure if you are asking a general question above about how it should be, or about how mine specifically is behaving - but I'll answer about mine. The suspension midway through a sweeping turn is nicely mid range and the bike handles great. I am running a zip tie in front and under the hardest braking or cornering it goes to about 1" above the bottom. In a straight line, how it sits in the front depends on throttle - when WFO, it feels like it's up pretty high and under braking and entering the chicane Suspension Guy is telling me it dives noticeably, which is what he was trying to fix with preload. I did notice with a LOT of preload (2 more turns)the bike felt more balanced and did not dive under braking, but I preferred the braking dive over the acceleration headshake!
In all other areas of the track the bike handles very well, and in fact I didn't KNOW there was a problem in the transitions, until we changed it and it got so much easier! So I guess I'm confused about what happens in a quick chicane - this one is a left-right and here is what I do: I brake hard with three downshifts coming in, release the brake as I make the left flick, then flick it back to the right as quickly as I can, then roll on the gas. I am off the throttle and off the brake between the turns.
So, under those conditions, does the bike spring back up in between turns? Is it supposed to? Or wouldn't it just stay compressed? If you added a ton of rebound damping, would it stay down, and if so, would that make it easier to turn, or harder? Presumably with more preload added the bike doesn't dive as far in front, but doesn't having it down in the front normally make it EASIER to turn? Maybe I am missing something obvious. I guess I'd like to see a graph of, or close-up video of, a front shock through a chicane to see what it does.
I hope you can make this more clear to me, it bothers me not to understand it.
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Just as a note of interest Mike I did a trackday at donington earlier this year and I had watched a few video clips of the motogp guys there just to get an idea of the layout of the track! In that I noticed they were turning in at the white line so I tried that only once to realise that it was way to early a turn point for me, I go a fair bit past the line and take a later turn point that works with the throttle control rule! At the time I thought that maybe the faster guys can turn earlier as long as they get the rear wheel spinning about the apex and at that moment point the bike where they want to go! An interesting point too about attack angles is if you watch Dani Pedrosa in this turn he actually pulls right into the pits exit lane to line up for it!
Unobantium tires with an unobtanium bike and unobatium entry speed?Is that three different spellings for one made-up word, or three different made-up words?
You get points (uber-points?) for creativity, that's for sure!!!
I thought about going back and editing it just to mess with you.
CF
I guess that would be Fair play.
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Just as a note of interest Mike I did a trackday at donington earlier this year and I had watched a few video clips of the motogp guys there just to get an idea of the layout of the track! In that I noticed they were turning in at the white line so I tried that only once to realise that it was way to early a turn point for me, I go a fair bit past the line and take a later turn point that works with the throttle control rule! At the time I thought that maybe the faster guys can turn earlier as long as they get the rear wheel spinning about the apex and at that moment point the bike where they want to go! An interesting point too about attack angles is if you watch Dani Pedrosa in this turn he actually pulls right into the pits exit lane to line up for it!
Unobantium tires with an unobtanium bike and unobatium entry speed?Is that three different spellings for one made-up word, or three different made-up words?
You get points (uber-points?) for creativity, that's for sure!!!
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A mini reply: if the front suspension moves less, that would make a more solid pivot (with less preload),wouldn't that make it easier to turn?
Yes - but I guess it had not occurred to me that the bike front suspension would move during a hard left-right transition. Wouldn't it just stay compressed?
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Hi all,
I ride a ZX6R. At my last track day, a suspension guy suggested to me that we add some preload in the front, to make it easier to flick the bike from side to side in a quick transition. He observed that my bike was low in front during the first turn and transitioning slowly to the second turn. He added a couple of turns of preload, and lo and behold, it was in fact MUCH easier and faster to flick the bike from one side to the other.
I'm not quite clear on WHY this helped. My normal thinking is that when the front suspension is compressed, the bike is easier and quicker to turn - but in this case, when going quickly from one side to the other, Suspension Guy said it was diving too much and therefore had to come UP and over, which was slow. I'd love a little help in understanding this better, if anyone has a more detailed explanation.
Incidentally, we tried another couple of turns of preload and OMG the front was suddenly really bouncy and now I have a whole new appreciation for the term "tankslapper". So needless to say those extra two turns came back out. Surprisingly, I never really noticed a difference in the intitial turn-in rate - I though more preload would make the bike a little harder/slower to turn.
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G'day all,
Just considering the 3 step cornering process of level 2. On track it seems to be much easier to be able to pin the vanishing point (step 3) and when I went to track days after level 2, the difference in corner speed that was available when actually looking properly at the vanishing point of the corner was noticeable. In fact it was quite shocking to realise how much faster I could have been going with the head in the right position looking at the right spot! I've still some work to do to achieve better results BUT.....
On the road, it all seems a lot harder, mainly due to the fact that roads have trees/hills/barriers or whatever in the way of where the vanishing point should be wrt the shape of the curve. I suppose what I'm asking is what should you be looking for on the road, the vanishing point which is caused by terrain barriers or whatever, or "pretend" that you can see "through" the bend (doesn't sound right to me) in order to maintain better balance. Pre CSS other riders had mentioned "looking through the bend" but it didn't really do it for me.
I hope the question makes sense.......
db
Disclaimer: I'm not a coach. But this is a neat question, hope you don't mind if I chime in. When I ride on the road, I use this technique all the time. Mostly I use it to tell me if a blind curve ahead is getting tighter (decreasing radius) or opening up (increasing radius). I remember Keith saying in class that if the vanishing point appears to be getting closer, the curve is tightening up, and if it seems to move away from you, then the curve is opening up. That was a revelation for me - I had sort of been doing it unconsciously but when I started thinking of it THAT way, my confidence went way up, and now I can control my speed better because I have a better sense of what the road will do up ahead. Just look ahead to the farthest point on the road you can see - it could be a short distance, on a tight curve on a mountain road, but that point, where the road disappears behind a cliff, will appear to be coming toward you or going away from you, and that will tell you if the curve is becoming tighter or straightening out. If it's coming toward you really fast, slow down.
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Keith came up to the GP with a hot-off-the-press trailer for the Twist 2 DVD. (Over a year in the making).
I'm biased, and with that established, its COOL! I liked the shots on the NO B/S bike when the rider can't get it back on the track and puts it in the dirt.
We started taking pre-orders at the GP, it will ship in 4-6 weeks.
HURRAYY!! Can't wait to see the DVD. Can you post the trailer online here or on YouTube so we can see it?
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Well.....Core strength is the basis of most sports these days, so I'd say that along with the lower body and legs would have to be the key. My embryonic attempts at moving my arse off the seat seems to put a fair bit of stress on the thighs - I'm not sure the seat on the triple is really ideal for sliding from side to side. Seems more like an up and over type of thing which takes some effort.
But I keep trying!
Hi dbtriple, you may want to make sure your leather is good fit---(especially the pant not baggy, 1 piece leather is highly recommanded and a must for me at drills). it will help you hangoff with 1 leg locking the bike with ease-- and the inner foot off the inner peg, and with both hands completely off the handlebar at same time. You will find this exercise helpful at level 3, especially in the hook turn drill. You will have fun and new skills at level3.
Wow, I never thought about this detail, but I'm glad you mentioned it - I am hanging off more and having a bit of trouble locking in securely. I have plenty of Stomp Grip on my bike - but my leathers are a bit loose and it never dawned on me that my knee/thigh might be sliding within my leathers. I bet that is part of my difficulty, and of course that would not be easily observed. I'm going to watch for this on my next track day, you may have cleared up a little mystery for me! Thanks for that clever idea.
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I DID IT! The second session of the first day...1:40.93, 1:40.88, missed a lap 1:41.23, 1:40.77 then a 1:40.26. It was very hot, about 98 ambient. I had to take a couple of cold showers between sessions to cool down. I started slowing down a bit after lunch and couldn't break the 1:41 mark. I had a plan for Sunday to come out the first session and get loose, find a couple of 1:35-1:39 riders and hitch a tow. I was on my way when the rider in front of me through up a hand with mechanical problems and put me off the pace...I finished with a 1:40.22. I started making mistakes in the third session after lunch with a couple of missed shifts. The tires were starting to feel a little greasy with the heat of the track so I called it a weekend. There is just so many Bananas, potassium, gatorade and water one can drink and when you're done you're done. This was a goal so now on to the 1:39's at Barber.
HURRAY! Nice job! OMG, 98 degrees. I'm so glad you're doing so well. Pretty impressive to come back off a crash and kick butt like that, awesome. Thanks for letting us know how it went!
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How do you rank the skills in order of importance---what's at the top and why?
Anyone can chime in on this, like to hear what newer and less experienced think as well as the more experienced.
Best,
Cobie
I think wide view is most important, particularly on the street, where it helps to anticipate traffic, but also on the track. Without a good wide view my sense of speed is distorted and I can't be smooth or calm and I certainly can't go very fast.
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I am looking for some advice on motorcycle stands for racing. I finally have to bite the bullet and remove the kickstand from my bike, and start using tire warmers, therefore I need to buy stands. This is new for me. I see that there are front stands that sit under the bottom of the forks, and others that have a pin that grabs up under the nose of the bike. Which is easier to use? I don't care about being able to remove the wheel or work on the forks, I just want the easiest-to-use stand for tire warmers. I DO want a lot of leverage, so that it's easy for me to lift the bike - the Pit Bull Forklift stand seems very popular, but seems a bit high effort and rather heavy, is there a lighter, easier one?
I also need advice on the rear stand, I see that Pit Bull has a front-handle rear stand that looks pretty cool. I am a woman, and rather short, so the idea of being able to grab the stand and lift the bike without having to try to walk behind it while holding it upright is appealing. It also seems handy not to have that handle sticking out behind the bike in the pit area. Has anyone tried it?
I'm sure with practice it becomes effortless to manage whatever stand you have, but I am looking for the EASIEST option, to get me through this learning curve without dropping the bike in the garage.
Thanks in advance! -
Hey Hotfoot;
Not trying to interrupt a good dialogue, I do want to offer a shout out for your comment on the blind curve truck scenerio.
I have a series of quiet country roads I ride for a short while after work and in about thirty five miles I can practice a lot of our CSS training. Last night I am riding downhill into a series of blind curves (like a wider version of the Corkscrew and a tighter version of Rainey Curve at Laguna) and your reference to the truck jumps into my head. Now in the valley I start up the other side in a section that has a short chute followed by a 180 degree blind corner (imagine T2 at Sears Point as a 180) and just as I clear the blind section - I am staring at the back of a lumbering dump truck in the middle of my line. The day before you posted that example I took that same corner with my knee almost on the deck but last night, I dropped back to 70% and was able to manuver around the truck.
You never know how anything you post may make a difference to anyone else but this morning, me and my family thank you for that one.
Kevin
Wow, Kevin! I don't know what to say, other than I'm really glad you're OK, and thanks so much for posting this! Andy's right, it is an amazing feeling to know that this made such a difference for you. Do you suppose this is how the coaches feel, every day?
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It seems to me that 70% is a somewhat artificial number used to help someone understand that you need to have something in reserve for emergencies when riding on the street. If that "70%" number doesn't have meaning to you, maybe it would be clearer to just go back to the basic idea behind it - could you stop or make a BIG steering correction, calmly, in an emergency, at the pace you are riding? If I was riding hard enough to make my tires squirm in a blind turn, I can assure you that I would not be prepared to make a big steering correction to avoid a car that suddenly appears on the wrong side of the road. Nor would I be comfortable taking those squirming tires over a patch of sand or gravel that I didn't see in the road. Maybe you could try using that as your gauge - do you have enough skills/traction/attention/etc left over to deal with a surprise road hazard?
Hi Hotfoot,
Wow! Your example of the blind curve and oncoming cage is the most extreme version of a biker's nightmare. Truth is, there could be zero reaction time in that case.
That image sure caught my attention! While I was waiting for an objective definition of 70%, and apparently there isn't one, your description is clear and concise from two different viewpoints: 1) traction and 2) reaction time. In order to continue to ride a motorcycle at all, I'll need to interpret your guidelines a little loosely:
"While in a curve, I should be able to make a big steering correction to the inside of the turn and/or come to a full stop within my sight/reaction distance for:
"a) a highly visible, stationary hazard, such as a stopped vehicle, or a fallen tree, -AND-
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a less visible road hazard such as a patch of dirt, sand, water, oil, or drywall screws."The beauty of what you suggest is that it by implication takes into account myriad variables including my physical and mental condition, bike's condition, road surface, weather, tires, etc. In addition, at my current skill level, it can be distilled into one easy to recall mantra, "70%=tires solidly planted and no hanging off!"
Thanks to everyone who contributed to the illumination of this issue for me. Thanks, Hotfoot, for your elegant solution which especially resonates for me.
Sincerely,
Andy
Andy,
I'm really glad that was helpful for you, it's a nice feeling to make a suggestion, and then learn that it was useful, so thank you for letting me know! Sorry if my example was a bit extreme.
The good news is that with good basics and enough confidence to react without panic, it's possible to make some really incredible avoidance moves when you need them; I've been amazed by what my bike can do, as long as I work with it and not against it. As long as I'm riding within my comfort zone, I can stay calm and react quickly and correctly.Your interpretation sounds very sensible for street riding, and per Cobie's question, I bring a similar idea to the track - my version would be something like this:
1) on a new track, I will ride at a speed that will allow me to stay well in control even if the turn does something different than I thought it was going to - like tightening up or going off-camber
2) I will approach other riders at a speed that will allow me to make a correction if someone makes an erratic move (especially if I am riding in the "intermediate group"
)3) I will ride smoothly and correctly when my tires are cold, and at a pace where I can handle a small slide if it occurs
4) whenever I am practicing something or trying to figure something out, I will ride at a pace that is very comfortable for me, so I have some attention left over for learning, and can try new things without triggering SRs
This is a fun discussion, I'm glad you got it started!
Hotfoot
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Hotfoot is going well, going to give her a coach tryout pretty soon I think.
Tires--seems like the Michelins for years have had good grip, but let go pretty quick. The Dunlops have had more a reputation for giving you lots of warning.
Haven't done any days on Michelins lately, nor raced on them lately, so no real opinion there. The Qualifiers as an all-round tire are pretty amazing though. With the right PSI in them, traction is pretty amazing.
CF
I think Hotfoot would make an outstanding coach! I know a mature guy from South Alabama that might be good at that. He said he feels very comfortable on Dunlop tires and green is his favorite color!
Yahoo! Thank you Cobie, reading your post made me very happy, and thank you FossilFuel for your stellar recommendation!
FossilFuel, I think you'd look great in green leathers.
You should definitely do a tryout, you'd be terrific.Here's a quick update on the tires - as I mentioned I rode recently on the Power Ones, and my laptimes were about 7 sec off, EEK! I was concerned enough about this that I scheduled another track day and AND brought a mechanic friend with me to help sort out the bike setup issues. I put a new set of the older model Power Race tires on, the model I had been running before. Well, yesterday was the track day. In the first session on the Power Races, I easily turned a fast lap time, and by the end of second session had set a new personal best time on that track. I didn't end up changing one single thing on the bike, other than the tires, despite having set aside the WHOLE DAY to work on it. I was extremely relieved that the only problem was with the tires - apparently I thought there would be more to it than that.
Just goes to show you how different tire models can feel.
I had a REALLY fun day at the track yesterday, what a RELIEF to have all my confidence back. FossilFuel, I hope you feel the same way when you get your bike back and some familiar tires on it.
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Hi Andy,
Your questions on tires and G forces could be addressed, but mabye another thread for that.
Regarding 70%: for sure this is subjective, the way one person vs another looks at what 100% would be a factor. Defining 70, 80, 90 and 100% would be one way to do this, and maybe separate them for street and track. 70% on the street is not 70% on the track.
Want to define them a little more precsely?
Best,
CF
Hi Cobie,
Yes, I realize everyone perceives risk differently, but what does Keith mean when he says "70%"? I mean, when I say it hurts, it's not the same as when my girlfriend says something hurts. At hospitals, they have a scale indicating from 1 to 10 how much pain one is feeling. Does somebody have the equivalent for traction thresholds, a topic which is critical to a motorcyclist's health and happiness? If not, shouldn't we clarify this a little more precisely?
Andy
70%--w/out reviewing the exact text, doesn't this refer to the rider? If 100% is everything you have, then roughly a third off of that. How many can actually ride a bike to it's complete limit (correct limit too). Even at the GP level, no everyone can ride the same bike to it's limit. Look at Nicky and just about everyone else than Casey on that Duc.
CF
It seems to me that 70% is a somewhat artificial number used to help someone understand that you need to have something in reserve for emergencies when riding on the street. If that "70%" number doesn't have meaning to you, maybe it would be clearer to just go back to the basic idea behind it - could you stop or make a BIG steering correction, calmly, in an emergency, at the pace you are riding? If I was riding hard enough to make my tires squirm in a blind turn, I can assure you that I would not be prepared to make a big steering correction to avoid a car that suddenly appears on the wrong side of the road. Nor would I be comfortable taking those squirming tires over a patch of sand or gravel that I didn't see in the road. Maybe you could try using that as your gauge - do you have enough skills/traction/attention/etc left over to deal with a surprise road hazard?
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Hotfoot,
Your glad and I'm glad that your glad! I have been wondering if I was crazy! When I got back in the paddock one of the guys asked me if I had scuffed them in. But you have to ride on the rim to get these things scuffed in to the edges and I think that might be a problem. I looked at the front tire since it needed to come off a bent marchesini rim anyway and noticed that the side walls didn't scuff in as close to the edge as my Dunlops or other brands I have used in the past. After 10 laps of hard breaking at an Advance level pace, these things should have been hot and scuffed. I'm done with these tires. I am not against Michelin as I loved my power race tires but these suck.
You remember how cold it was at Leguna Seca? 49 degrees with a northwest wind 49mph. We were on Dunlop Qualifiers with no warmers and no issues....Thanks for your post and I hope to see you and your Hubby again.
P.S. Tell me again how you loved your Barber Code school.
P.S.S. I run Dunlop Race slicks 120/70/17 and 195/70/17. Check with your Dunlop Rep. The SportMax are what many of the WERA guys use.
Hey there,
Yeah, ever since trying to Power Ones I have been asking around if others like them, and of course I keep hearing that 'racers love them'. So, either I'm too damn slow to appreciate them, or else they are king's new clothes.
OK, I'll tell you again - I LOVED the Barber Code school. The track is gorgeous, beautiful scenery, trees and lakes, and rolling hills, and the track itself is terrific. It has a great flow, and elevation changes, and it's nice and wide, and I got a real kick out of driving up and over those blind hills. Wheeee!
In addition to that, I got so much out of the coaching , I couldn't believe it - in every single session, I had something to work on, focused on it and saw immediate improvements, then moved on to something else; I always get that at CSS (it's what keeps me coming back!) but this time, each small change yielded such dramatic results that it was almost like being at the school for the very first time - I found whole new ways of looking at things.
By the end of the second day I felt like I was flying around that track. I really, really had a blast.
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If you're on the clutch, I'm not sure being at a particular rev going into a corner would have any effect. When coming off the brakes you should be going into the corner with the clutch pulled in.
SAY WHAT?!?!?!???
To the Original Poster: the sole purpose of downshifting is to put you into the powerband as you begin your drive OFF the corner. Nothing else. If you're thinking of using it to modulate your speed, it will hinder your times, smoothness and may also be a safety issue.
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Learning point for me, I guess. When I'm going in to a corner, I'm coming off the brake and don't have any power going to the rear. Did I explain it wrong, or am I incorrect? I start giving power to the tire when I'm in the corner. I'm only concerned about what gear I'm in for the release, not my RPM's.
I keep going back to our "maintenance throttle" discussion so many months ago when I read Freedys question.
When riding only on the street I got into the habit of pulling in the clutch and holding it in while braking, and coasting into turns. After taking CSS and starting to ride on the track, I broke that habit and I never enter a corner with the clutch pulled in. For one thing, there is no engine braking, so you are "freewheeling" into the corner, which gives a lot less feedback and makes you feel like you are going in too fast. Another issue is that it's a lot harder to steer the bike quickly and accurately when you are holding in the clutch. Lastly, if you enter the corner with the clutch in, where do you let it out? While you are leaned over? It seems like it would be very easy to make an error and I wouldn't want to lock up my back tire in the midst of a turn.
When I approach a corner now, I either downshift without using the clutch at all, or I use a VERY fast clutch action, and pull it in as little as possible to accomplish the downshift, but I am FOR SURE done with it before my turn point. If I hold the clutch too long, the RPMs drop a lot and I have to either blip it a lot (and I am terrible at it) or let it out REALLY slow to avoid locking up the rear tire.
Generally I do have the throttle all the way off at turn point, because it is easier to turn the bike - the front is loaded, so I get a quicker turn in. You can still get the bike turned without shutting the throttle completely off, but I think the ideal is to be coming out of the brakes right as you turn in, and you wouldn't be on the throttle AND on the brakes at the same time. The bike CAN feel more stable if you use maintenance throttle - but you are slowing down turn-in, which may feel safer but can also make you run wide.
One caveat here, I think some fast guys do use a slow controlled clutch release to get it sideways into a corner - but if that's the riding level you are talking about, I'll step out and you can direct the discussion to Stuman!
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Since my favorite tire has recently been discontinued (see the other tire thread going on right now), I am considering buying a few sets of them now, while I can still get them, which begs the question - how long can I store them and how fresh do they need to be when I buy them? I know this has probably been discussed before, but I couldn't easily find the info, so here is the question again.
I know how to look at the manufacture date, but how old is OK? A year? 6 months? And if I store the tires in a garage (which can get hot) how long before they start to go off? Can I store them another 6 months?
I have gotten spoiled buying tires right at the track, where I know they have been recently manufactured and stored properly. Now I am going to have to find discontinued tires from suppliers that still have them - so I might be getting some stuff that's been sitting on a shelf for a long time. How old is too old?
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You can make a non-tax deductible tire donation to the Jaybird Motorcycle Foundation
Jaybird, if you want my Power Ones, come and get them, they're all yours. I rode on them at CA Speedway, Laguna Seca, and Streets, and found them to be NON confidence inspiring at all three tracks. On the bright side, they do have a lot of tread left in the center.
I may go back to the much cheaper and very predictable Pilot Powers, which may have less grip but are a lot more fun to ride on, and are REALLY available to me at my home track, but most likely it will be Dunlops for me from now on. I'm really disappointed that Michelin made such a radical change.
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I had a spectacular low side at Barber during WERA race practice a few weeks ago. I was not on my normal "Dunlop race slicks". I was in a bind and a friend ordered Michelin Power One V-profile. The manufacturer states the cold tire pressure is 31 psi. Michelin does not give hot tire pressures. I had put about ten laps on the tires. I ususally try to get about three laps on a new set before I consider them "scuffed" in. So the front probably was about 36 psi. I was passing on the outside using "maintenance throttle" when the front just went, no warning at all. Unfortunately for me the bike caught on the track, went up in the air and flipped twice before hitting the ground. I had a front row seat.
I normally run Dunlop slicks with hot tire pressure of 31 psi front and 30 psi rear. I have been to Barber probably 35 times and never had an issue in turn two. I know, there is always a first time.
I love my Dunlop tires and after the crash all I could think about was the tires because in my mind it was unlikely after all the riding and race schools I have been to that I caused the low side mid corner.
The questions that run through your mind: Was it a light front end, a seam, marbles on the track, to much pressure on the bars, tire pressure or unfamiliar tire profile? These are the kinds of questions you ask yourself after the fact. It is really hard to do analysis when your trying to pass and maybe that is where more errors occur because you get tunnel vision and lose "feel"
I know that three other guys low sided in turn 2 at Barber and two were on Michelin Power Ones with the "V" profile. When I came back in to the paddock several racers commented on the tires. One guy said " He only new two top racers that could ride on them". I talked to the Dunlop tire rep and he said "off the record" you know what he said.
So, I guess it is hard for me to admit that I made a bad input. I mean I was smooooth and still can't believe it happened but....Do tires make a difference? Does 31 psi hot vs 36 psi hot make that much of a difference? Does tire profile make a difference?
FossilFuel!!! I am SO GLAD you posted this, I had trouble with these tires too. I was running Michelin PowerRace tires and loved them. They have been replaced with the Power Ones. So my tire vendor sold me those, said they would feel the same. I HATED them. I had head shake multiple places on the track (on AND off the gas!), which I have never experienced before, and repeatedly slipped both front and rear tires - even getting substantial slips on the rear tire on upshifts, with the bike completely upright. My confidence went WAY down, and after three sessions I went back and asked him to change the tires. He replaced them with the 'commercially available' version, which were a LOT better - they were less stiff, had a less radical profile, and warmed up quickly. So I started to ride better, and have a made a real effort to like these - but then I did a school day on Dunlops, had a blast - and when I got back on my own bike (also a ZX6R), the Power Ones felt awful in comparison. So, I'm done with them, they're going in the trash.
My tire vendor said that since I wasn't using warmers and it was a cool day (60s) that I never warmed up the tires, and so they were stiff and slick. I noticed that the race version of the front tire was shorter in height than my Power Race tire, so my front end was lower and less stable. Then when I changed to the 'commercial' tire, it was HIGHER than my previous tire, had to change my setup again.
So I don't know which of these issues you ran into, whether the tire was too stiff, too low-profile, didn't warm up, didn't give you enough feedback, or just plain didn't have enough grip, but I can tell you from direct experience that I can't ride for s__t on the Power Ones, I think it is totally possible that your crash was related to the change in tires, they do feel radically different to me. And I LOVED the Power Race and the Pilot Powers. So... which Dunlop were you using? I guess I'm changing brands!
So sorry to hear about your crash, I hope you are OK. And that your bike is recoverable.
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Don't I wish that was me in the picture! Truth is, it's my hero Ben Spies. I've been told by instructors to look for the rumble strip for turn-in at turn 9 at Big Willow. Also, I've seen some good sized cracks at the outside of the track. They recently painted some striped lines for an exit lane that could be used. Takes a real good sized set of you-know-whats to keep your speed up through turn 8 until you spot something, though. Thanks for the reply.
OK, I guess I should have known that. I'm going to have start watching more racing...
I sometimes have trouble using reference points on the outside of the turn, it can make me late in looking for my exit point, and that definitely happens to me at Turn 9 if I look at the paint stripes, it's easy to end up looking at the exit lane instead of up the straight. Once I focused on looking up that straightaway, I was able to tighten up the turn a lot and had a much better drive.
Totally agree that it takes nerve to keep the speed up through 8 - one thing that helped me was to really look at the track map, to get a better idea of the actual distance between turns 8 and 9, the straight between them was longer than I thought, and that info helped me be more confident in driving through 8.
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I understand the importance of having and using reference points to determine location (for various purposes), but I never seem to have enough time to find good reference points. The Level II exercise was useful and instructive but not really practical conduct during a track day. One is not allowed to walk around on the track to really see it up close and personal and the couple of "sighting laps" at the beginning of each track day don't provide me enough time. I try to spot reference points during the first couple (tire warmup) laps each session but then must bring the speed up or risk interfering with other riders. Do I just need to keep trying and, once I've spent enough money and circled the track enough times, eventually I'll spot enough? The "rumble strips" are good but you need to practically be on top of them before you really see them clearly. The cones are good but they may or may not be placed exactly as they were the last time (by the last track day vendor). Skid marks come and go. Cracks are hard to spot from a distance. My nemesis is turn 9 at Big Willow. Any thoughts?
Um, you don't look very ordinary in that PICTURE! No wonder you have trouble finding reference points, your eyes are only six inches above the track!
I sure wish I could get down that low.I struggle with fidning reference points, too, for the same reasons you mentioned, and it seems like most track day organizations run sighting laps way too fast to be very useful.
I haven't ridden Big Willow very much, but for me at Turn 9 the only thing I've been able to find is seams or skid marks, and those aren't great because there are a LOT of skid marks, and they change between track days. What I started doing in 9 is find my apex reference point first (there are some gouges in the track that work well and seem to be permanent), then just waiting, and staying pretty wide, until I could see the apex before considering a turn in, then looking for tire marks in that vicinity to pick a good turn point. Last time I went, there was a triangle of skid marks that was distinctive and easy to see from a distance. The key was to wait until I could see the apex, and after a few laps I had a pretty good picture of what the turn looked like from the general area of turn-in, and that gave me a chance to look for a good turn point reference.
I think some people use an off-track reference point for 9, kinda like the water tower for Streets, but I don't know what they use, anyone here know?
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Ok, hopefully the June 13th class will help as well, but until then... are there any techniques for correcting your perception? I'm not dragging knees and logically understand I have more lean angle, but still "can't" go lower.
It's been a while since I've read the Twist books, so I'm going to refresh myself before the class.
Any suggestions??? Or just quit being a wuss and do it
Oh, and I will admit, while leaned over, I do say to myself - don't go lower, or you'll tuck the front. Again... logically I know it's in my head and I can go lower; I'm just finding it hard to overcome. Body position, needs inprovement, but: half off the seat, outside knee in the tank, looking through the turn, somewhat kissin' the mirror.Any help is appreciated,
Josh
Personally, I find that I can experiment with lean angle more easily if I hang off less, or not at all. That way I can keep about the same speed through the turn but have to lean over farther, AND I take away that combo of more lean angle plus hanging off, which pushes two of my "uh-oh" buttons at the same time, if you know what I mean. So essentially I can sit in a more secure position and lean more without having to go faster, so I tackle one thing at a time, then once I get more comfortable I can add the hanging-off part back in or add more speed.
I also find that I can experiment more easily in long sweepers - more time to sense the lean angle, easier to get a smooth roll-on to stabilize the bike, more room, etc., versus trying to 'snap' the bike to a really sharp lean. And you aren't trying to do it at turn-in so you don't feel as much like you are going to tuck the front.
Hope that helps...
a less visible road hazard such as a patch of dirt, sand, water, oil, or drywall screws."
The good news is that with good basics and enough confidence to react without panic, it's possible to make some really incredible avoidance moves when you need them; I've been amazed by what my bike can do, as long as I work with it and not against it. As long as I'm riding within my comfort zone, I can stay calm and react quickly and correctly.
For Those About To Seca
in School Questions/General Discussion
Posted
Well, did you see they added a 2 day camp at Laguna Seca over Thanksgiving? If I read it right, it's school on Wednesday, day off for Thanksgiving on Thursday, then school again on Friday. Sounds like fun, I think you should rent a house and host a big Thanksgiving dinner for everyone on Thursday!!!
Oh, by the way, FossilFuel, I am booked for CodeRace Oct 26-27th, are you up for it?