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Increasing Corner Speed


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Hi Guy's,

I have a question that might help me get over a corner speed fear. the question is if I have set my speed for a corner, quick turned and on the throttle with 40/60 weight ratio immediately after I have turned in, the only thing that theoretically should happen regardless if I am to fast is that my arc is to wide for the turn? I would like to test this in a few corners that I feel I could be faster in.

And Adam06, Bullet, Cobie, Greg...please be nice.

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I would think that if you are way leaned over and had a bump, dip or change in camber in the turn you could have ground clearance issues, like unexpectedly scraping a peg, that might not have happened at your previously lower speed.

 

Is there something specific (other than running wide) you are concerned about happening, if you go in faster?

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What lets you know you are in too fast?

 

CF

"What lets you know you are in too fast?"

I end up off the track heading for the armco screaming like a little girl? but really, I don't hit the turn point, I turn in to early and EARLY apex the turn and go wide?

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I would think that if you are way leaned over and had a bump, dip or change in camber in the turn you could have ground clearance issues, like unexpectedly scraping a peg, that might not have happened at your previously lower speed.

 

Is there something specific (other than running wide) you are concerned about happening, if you go in faster?

 

Hotfoot,

I'm good. I'm not getting into the fetal position just yet. I read in twist I that all things being equal getting turned and on the throttle as soon as possible gives one the best chance for stabilizing the bike and turning. Absent of any SR's with good body position, a text book quick turn and good throttle control what is the limiting factor of making the turn....

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I would think that if you are way leaned over and had a bump, dip or change in camber in the turn you could have ground clearance issues, like unexpectedly scraping a peg, that might not have happened at your previously lower speed.

 

Is there something specific (other than running wide) you are concerned about happening, if you go in faster?

 

Hotfoot,

I'm good. I'm not getting into the fetal position just yet. I read in twist I that all things being equal getting turned and on the throttle as soon as possible gives one the best chance for stabilizing the bike and turning. Absent of any SR's with good body position, a text book quick turn and good throttle control what is the limiting factor of making the turn....

 

Since we're talking theory, I'd like to offer a suggested answer.

 

What should happen is that you'd blow past the apex in this scenario, but since the helmeted computer is working well, we usually hit the apex at the expense of running wide at the exit.

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Jaybird,

Are you copying my answers! You can't do that. What if someone came along and just read the last post? They would think this cat is brilliant.

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What lets you know you are in too fast?

 

CF

"What lets you know you are in too fast?"

I end up off the track heading for the armco screaming like a little girl? but really, I don't hit the turn point, I turn in to early and late apex the turn?

 

Just a quick question on this, not that I know but I may be misreading this statement!

If you turn in too early would you not hit the apex earlier, then run wide?

I would imagine a later turn point would create a late apex, then leave you plenty of room to drive out of the turn!

I cant see how you can turn in too early and late apex, it doesn't make sense to me!

 

Bobby

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What lets you know you are in too fast?

 

CF

"What lets you know you are in too fast?"

I end up off the track heading for the armco screaming like a little girl? but really, I don't hit the turn point, I turn in to early and late apex the turn?

 

Just a quick question on this, not that I know but I may be misreading this statement!

If you turn in too early would you not hit the apex earlier, then run wide?

I would imagine a later turn point would create a late apex, then leave you plenty of room to drive out of the turn!

I cant see how you can turn in too early and late apex, it doesn't make sense to me!

 

Bobby

You are correct so technically Jaybird did not copy my response so if anyone sees Jaybird let him know...I meant to say "early apex"...sorry for any confusion.

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Jaybird,

Question....I first started this post expecting to discover how something feels without actaully doing it. I wanted to press my speed to the limit at my turn in point, with the best possible quick turn and the best possible throttle control. I wanted to be at the edge and leave nothing on the table...But what I read was that the faster one goes, the earlier the turn in...that's where that statement came from. Those who go in really fast and maybe too fast turn in too early for the apex. I can see how that could happen.

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Jaybird,

Question....I first started this post expecting to discover how something feels without actaully doing it. I wanted to press my speed to the limit at my turn in point, with the best possible quick turn and the best possible throttle control. I wanted to be at the edge and leave nothing on the table...But what I read was that the faster one goes, the earlier the turn in...that's where that statement came from. Those who go in really fast and maybe too fast turn in too early for the apex. I can see how that could happen.

 

I have 2 questions for you sir.

 

What relationship does line, speed and TP have?

 

Do SR's play a role here?

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The line depends on the turn point and at what speed.

The turn point depends on what line you want to take and at what speed.

And the speed depends on arc of the turn and how quick you can turn the bike.

 

Do SR's come into play here...yes

 

For the most part I know what to do. It is just getting that last little bit..It is a learning experience and the challenge is to approach it systematically. I like to think out loud.

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The line depends on the turn point and at what speed.

The turn point depends on what line you want to take and at what speed.

And the speed depends on arc of the turn and how quick you can turn the bike.

 

Do SR's come into play here...yes

 

For the most part I know what to do. It is just getting that last little bit..It is a learning experience and the challenge is to approach it systematically. I like to think out loud.

 

Which SR affects the above 3 in relation to this topic?

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Jaybird,

Question....I first started this post expecting to discover how something feels without actaully doing it. I wanted to press my speed to the limit at my turn in point, with the best possible quick turn and the best possible throttle control. I wanted to be at the edge and leave nothing on the table...But what I read was that the faster one goes, the earlier the turn in...that's where that statement came from. Those who go in really fast and maybe too fast turn in too early for the apex. I can see how that could happen.

 

Think of this simple scenario fossilfuel!

Imagine a flat 90 degree right turn, someone has conveniently spray painted a 2 yellow X's on the track, one for turn point and one for would be apex! You go around this corner using the markers consistently increasing your speed at turn entry, so to continue to follow this line all you have to do is quickturn the bike a little quicker to match the faster entry speed!

At what point will this line not work?

Would you reach the limit of how fast you can quickturn a bike, or would it be more like you get to a point where you are unable to follow throttle control rule #1 through the turn!

As your speed increased would you feel tempted to turn in a little earlier, knowing it would most likely cause you to run wide on the exit? Is turning in a little bit earlier maybe just caused by a lack of confidence in our ability to quickturn a bike at the faster entry speed?

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I think how fast you can quick turn the bike is a limiiting factor.

I also think that a lack of confidence will contribute to turning in earlier.

 

What I am seeing is this, I am approaching an 80 mph apex. I never look at my speedometer so I am depending on knowing my gearing, my rpm's, my turn in point and how fast I can quick turn the bike. It seems to me that if I slow down to 80 to soon I am losing valuable time. So the later I wait and the faster I quick turn, the faster I go through the corner.

 

X marks the spot...the turn point. What is the margin of error? The amount of force used to turn the bike quickly and the distance one covers is a variable. The faster one goes the harder it is to quick turn so the faster I go into a corner the longer it takes to turn the bike. My margin of error gets smaller and smaller as speed increases. The need to hit X becomes more and more critical.

 

I have heard over and over from CSS that given the conditions are good and tires are warm, they have never seen someone turn to quickly...This is the point I want to work up to...the edge. Everything becomes more critical at this point, the braking, the turn, on the throttle.

 

So I was just trying to get a since of what type of feedback I would encounter?

 

Thanks for your response...Hub, Jay, Ace, Hotfoot

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I think how fast you can quick turn the bike is a limiiting factor.

I also think that a lack of confidence will contribute to turning in earlier.

 

What I am seeing is this, I am approaching an 80 mph apex. I never look at my speedometer so I am depending on knowing my gearing, my rpm's, my turn in point and how fast I can quick turn the bike. It seems to me that if I slow down to 80 to soon I am losing valuable time. So the later I wait and the faster I quick turn, the faster I go through the corner.

 

X marks the spot...the turn point. What is the margin of error? The amount of force used to turn the bike quickly and the distance one covers is a variable. The faster one goes the harder it is to quick turn so the faster I go into a corner the longer it takes to turn the bike. My margin of error gets smaller and smaller as speed increases. The need to hit X becomes more and more critical.

 

I have heard over and over from CSS that given the conditions are good and tires are warm, they have never seen someone turn to quickly...This is the point I want to work up to...the edge. Everything becomes more critical at this point, the braking, the turn, on the throttle.

 

So I was just trying to get a since of what type of feedback I would encounter?

 

Thanks for your response...Hub, Jay, Ace, Hotfoot

 

You seem to be a little fixated on that their turn point my friend, do you think its more or less more importat than that Apex?

 

Bullet

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I think how fast you can quick turn the bike is a limiiting factor.

I also think that a lack of confidence will contribute to turning in earlier.

 

What I am seeing is this, I am approaching an 80 mph apex. I never look at my speedometer so I am depending on knowing my gearing, my rpm's, my turn in point and how fast I can quick turn the bike. It seems to me that if I slow down to 80 to soon I am losing valuable time. So the later I wait and the faster I quick turn, the faster I go through the corner.

 

X marks the spot...the turn point. What is the margin of error? The amount of force used to turn the bike quickly and the distance one covers is a variable. The faster one goes the harder it is to quick turn so the faster I go into a corner the longer it takes to turn the bike. My margin of error gets smaller and smaller as speed increases. The need to hit X becomes more and more critical.

 

I have heard over and over from CSS that given the conditions are good and tires are warm, they have never seen someone turn to quickly...This is the point I want to work up to...the edge. Everything becomes more critical at this point, the braking, the turn, on the throttle.

 

So I was just trying to get a since of what type of feedback I would encounter?

 

Thanks for your response...Hub, Jay, Ace, Hotfoot

 

I think I understand where you're going with this. Just keep in mind that time to turn doesn't get longer, instead it requires more effort because you've reduced the time/distance equation. In other words, you need to get it done NOW as oppposed to n o w.

 

Now, get out and ride you silly boy.

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I think how fast you can quick turn the bike is a limiiting factor.

I also think that a lack of confidence will contribute to turning in earlier.

 

What I am seeing is this, I am approaching an 80 mph apex. I never look at my speedometer so I am depending on knowing my gearing, my rpm's, my turn in point and how fast I can quick turn the bike. It seems to me that if I slow down to 80 to soon I am losing valuable time. So the later I wait and the faster I quick turn, the faster I go through the corner.

 

X marks the spot...the turn point. What is the margin of error? The amount of force used to turn the bike quickly and the distance one covers is a variable. The faster one goes the harder it is to quick turn so the faster I go into a corner the longer it takes to turn the bike. My margin of error gets smaller and smaller as speed increases. The need to hit X becomes more and more critical.

 

I have heard over and over from CSS that given the conditions are good and tires are warm, they have never seen someone turn to quickly...This is the point I want to work up to...the edge. Everything becomes more critical at this point, the braking, the turn, on the throttle.

 

So I was just trying to get a since of what type of feedback I would encounter?

 

Thanks for your response...Hub, Jay, Ace, Hotfoot

 

You seem to be a little fixated on that their turn point my friend, do you think its more or less more importat than that Apex?

 

Bullet

 

Bullet,

Why are you guys asking so many questions? I'm getting an ICE CREAM HEADACHE!

It is not as much the turn point as the quick turn. I'm trying to incorporate it into my riding..do a better job at it. I have come to rely on the brakes when racing maybe more than I should. I want to see how fast I can quick turn to see if it helps my riding. To quick turn it seems like the turn point is important.

 

I normally just trail brake as for into the turn as I can with out having a "come to Jesus" meeting.

 

And please, would someone answer with a declarative statement.

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I think how fast you can quick turn the bike is a limiiting factor.

I also think that a lack of confidence will contribute to turning in earlier.

 

What I am seeing is this, I am approaching an 80 mph apex. I never look at my speedometer so I am depending on knowing my gearing, my rpm's, my turn in point and how fast I can quick turn the bike. It seems to me that if I slow down to 80 to soon I am losing valuable time. So the later I wait and the faster I quick turn, the faster I go through the corner.

 

X marks the spot...the turn point. What is the margin of error? The amount of force used to turn the bike quickly and the distance one covers is a variable. The faster one goes the harder it is to quick turn so the faster I go into a corner the longer it takes to turn the bike. My margin of error gets smaller and smaller as speed increases. The need to hit X becomes more and more critical.

 

I have heard over and over from CSS that given the conditions are good and tires are warm, they have never seen someone turn to quickly...This is the point I want to work up to...the edge. Everything becomes more critical at this point, the braking, the turn, on the throttle.

 

So I was just trying to get a since of what type of feedback I would encounter?

 

Thanks for your response...Hub, Jay, Ace, Hotfoot

 

I think I understand where you're going with this. Just keep in mind that time to turn doesn't get longer, instead it requires more effort because you've reduced the time/distance equation. In other words, you need to get it done NOW as oppposed to n o w.

 

Now, get out and ride you silly boy.

 

I can't ride, not for a few more weeks. That's why I'm on the forum! I'm jones'n :ph34r:

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OK mate, sorry if we're making you work way too hard here...

 

So, to make it easier, ( for me and probably others new to the thread), what questions do we have unanswered here, as I feel it's moved on a little past your inital question. You must remember, the codiene tablets are affecting my abiility to concentrate, so if you refresh where we are, I'll see if we can help ya.. ;)

 

Bullet

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I'm done....As Jaybird said very intuitively " Now, get out and ride you silly boy".

 

I don't think silly, but I think its a good example of trying to overcomplicate something, its possible to tie yourself in knots sometimes in the search of answers. As Jay put it, sometimes a few laps at it will make much clearer!

 

keep smiling bud

 

Bullet

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  • 4 months later...

Speed in corners...

 

There are many factors that can help improve your skill...

 

You can change your reference points to obtain different results...

 

When you are testing new limits, I would suggest braking a little earlier and less aggressively to set up entry speed...

 

If you can, try going a little deeper and turn a little sharper... Get on the gas a little earlier... Small steps so you do not meet low or high side...

 

One thing that help me a lot is not knowing how fast I was going... First, it would distract me... And second, it would trigger SRs...

 

Another thing that has help me, is to ride with faster riders... I am not trying to keep up or ride over my head... But observe their lines... Chances are your tires are just as sticky... Remain calm and relaxed... Don't forget to breathe...

 

Then again, What do I know... I am a slow rider...

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  • 1 month later...

Fossil you seem happy with the RPs for turning in and apexing, are you looking for some sort of speed RP? As you say, no speedo so only a rev counter which you might not have much time to read, so difficult perhaps to increase your speed into a turn on each lap if you're not able to figure out how fast you were or are going.

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