Proper Entry Speed

[Jaybird180]

Okay just need to get this straight in my head, especially while the weather is cold and I'm only riding my imagination.

 

True/False or Oversimplified

 

You know that the entry speed is right if: (assuming the rider follow TC Rule #1)

You can hit the apex using the desired turn point

AND

You consistently come within milimeters of the edge of the track at exit

[stuman]

I think to make the question more accurate you should define what you mean by "right entry speed".

 

What is right for you might not work for me.

 

I'm never satisfied with my entry speed, so I never get it right

[Bullet]

Hi mate,

 

I'm in agreement with Stuman, it's never, ever exactly the same, regardless of how well you try, it's always open to some level of variation, whether that's slightly slower/higher speed, missed Apex, etc, etc. I do think that your idea is a good one to some degree though, and TC #1 is you're primary advisor.

 

I will however also say, that people massively obsess over entry, whereas I'm personally all about how quick I can get of the corner, my exit is much, much, much more important. So my entry is just something I need to do to get back to that throttle.

 

I think in summary, you're trying to get to a very simple equation for something that's incredibly variable.

 

Bullet

[acebobby]

Hay Jay, how you doing?

Its an interesting question, but the variables are infinite.

Like most people I'm not happy with my entry speed, but I think that in your head if you make the turn you always think you could have went a little faster, and you probably could have!

What limits your entry speed though, there are a few things I can think of that limit me, in no particular order!

1/ confidence in how quick I can turn the bike.

2/ think I'm going to fast and tense up, I know I do this so focus on it at times!

3/ think I'm going to fast and dont get on the throttle soon enough, as above!

The worst case scenario for me is if-when SRs force me to turn in earlier than I intended, all my RPs become pointless and the exit is scary, with this in mind I practice increasing my entry speed at a known corner that I have a consistent turn point and good RPs throughout the turn!

 

Bobby

[Jaybird180]

Hi Ace, all is well

 

 

Regarding my question:

I recall the briefing from my 1st trackday @ Summit Point Jefferson Course. I recall the discussion about the final turn (left, off cambered, leading to the front straight) being deceptive in that most people are too slow. The guidance given was, 'if there's 6 feet at your exit to the curbing, then you can go faster'.

 

Silly me, I didn't get any faster, I just came closer to the edge on each lap (LOL).

 

So, was this advice oversimplified or was it even approximately good advice? And now that I think about it, it's probably foolish advice as the camber needs to be considered in this case.

 

So, let's talk about a standard, flat, 90 degree bend:

Your TP is consistent, roll-on rate is good and apex consistent. Entry speed is 60 mph. You end up at the exit with 3 feet to the curbing. Can you safely and successively increase the speed: 62mph, 64mph, 66mph, etc until you consistently come within millimeters of the curbing?

[Bullet]

So, let's talk about a standard, flat, 90 degree bend:

Your TP is consistent, roll-on rate is good and apex consistent. Entry speed is 60 mph. You end up at the exit with 3 feet to the curbing. Can you safely and successively increase the speed: 62mph, 64mph, 66mph, etc until you consistently come within millimeters of the curbing?

 

Well, as we're talking purely theoritical, if you were turning the bike as quick as possible, carrying the maximum amount of lean angle that your bike could handle into the turn, applying good TC, picking the bike up, driving the bike as hard as you can with the maximum amount of drive and slip angle possible, then yes you could do that until you were upto the kerbing.

 

The reality of course is different, they're all very vairable, for example, a lot of people drive onto kerbs more because they look at them, rather than having maximual drive, and so on, and so on.

 

Bullet

[GregGorman]

Hi Ace, all is well

 

Regarding my question:

I recall the briefing from my 1st trackday @ Summit Point Jefferson Course. I recall the discussion about the final turn (left, off cambered, leading to the front straight) being deceptive in that most people are too slow. The guidance given was, 'if there's 6 feet at your exit to the curbing, then you can go faster'.

 

Silly me, I didn't get any faster, I just came closer to the edge on each lap (LOL).

 

So, was this advice oversimplified or was it even approximately good advice? And now that I think about it, it's probably foolish advice as the camber needs to be considered in this case.

 

Oversimplified and kind of counter-productive and even dangerous. It lacks the critical "how". And the "how" is going to be different for each rider. For some riders it'll be a visual skill they need to fix - they're simply not seeing the space for some reason. For others it could be a lean angle/traction issue - off camber increases lean angle. Yet others may be riding over their heads, very tight on the bars, and stuck in a rut. Telling them they can go faster is asking for a crash.

 

So, let's talk about a standard, flat, 90 degree bend:

Your TP is consistent, roll-on rate is good and apex consistent. Entry speed is 60 mph. You end up at the exit with 3 feet to the curbing. Can you safely and successively increase the speed: 62mph, 64mph, 66mph, etc until you consistently come within millimeters of the curbing?

 

Using the same TP? I don't think so. If you're using the same TP and hitting the same apex you're on the same arc, right? Until sliding comes into play, speed doesn't matter if you're hitting those two points. Something would have to change to get you to the curbing.

 

Try the opposite. What happens if you slow down (20mph) and hit those two points? Will that change your exit?

[Jaybird180]

Hi Ace, all is well

 

Regarding my question:

I recall the briefing from my 1st trackday @ Summit Point Jefferson Course. I recall the discussion about the final turn (left, off cambered, leading to the front straight) being deceptive in that most people are too slow. The guidance given was, 'if there's 6 feet at your exit to the curbing, then you can go faster'.

 

Silly me, I didn't get any faster, I just came closer to the edge on each lap (LOL).

 

So, was this advice oversimplified or was it even approximately good advice? And now that I think about it, it's probably foolish advice as the camber needs to be considered in this case.

 

Oversimplified and kind of counter-productive and even dangerous. It lacks the critical "how". And the "how" is going to be different for each rider. For some riders it'll be a visual skill they need to fix - they're simply not seeing the space for some reason. For others it could be a lean angle/traction issue - off camber increases lean angle. Yet others may be riding over their heads, very tight on the bars, and stuck in a rut. Telling them they can go faster is asking for a crash.

 

So, let's talk about a standard, flat, 90 degree bend:

Your TP is consistent, roll-on rate is good and apex consistent. Entry speed is 60 mph. You end up at the exit with 3 feet to the curbing. Can you safely and successively increase the speed: 62mph, 64mph, 66mph, etc until you consistently come within millimeters of the curbing?

 

Using the same TP? I don't think so. If you're using the same TP and hitting the same apex you're on the same arc, right? Until sliding comes into play, speed doesn't matter if you're hitting those two points. Something would have to change to get you to the curbing.

 

Try the opposite. What happens if you slow down (20mph) and hit those two points? Will that change your exit?

I's say that you CAN have 2 points same.

[GregGorman]

I don't understand. Yes, you can have two points the same. I thought the question was regarding the third point, the exit.

[Jaybird180]

The question above being can you only vary speed and change the exit point and if this is a good way of determining that you've gotten the speed right?

 

 

Here's another scenario to help illuminate my question (cause I have a feeling that I'm not asking the right question to begin with):

I have a practice area nearby that I like to run. The first turn has a nice sweeping right turn, 3 lanes wide. One day, about a year ago, I spent several hours riding this area, no brakes. Once I felt I had a good line (TP and apex) and TC, the only thing I tried to vary was the entry speed. I continually tried to push myself to increase the entry without much success.

 

Looking back, I know I didn't do something right because I was able to only push the entry about 6mph without causing an SR, but got the exit speed up about 15mph, regardless of the entry speed and my exit point became tighter and tighter. During this exercise, I wanted to focus on throttle control and in that area I was satisfied with my discipline, but dissatisfied with my entry speed. I have no way of convincing myself that I can push the entry speed higher, which was causing the SR (hunting eyes, narrowed vision, feelings of uncertainty). I'd get the entry speed up a few MPH, then back down to where it was comfortable the prior lap. I had no problems once leaned over, getting on the gas earlier or harder.

 

How do I correct the misjudgment in sense of entry speed (feeling of too fast)?

 

 

And as ACE mentioned, what is that little voice saying to us that we could have gone faster? Why is he so late?

[acebobby]

Hay Jay

The SRs you mentioned, (hunting eyes, narrowed vision, feelings of uncertainty). In my opinion are all visual, basically SR #3 and maybe #4, you may want to go over some of your level 2 drills regarding that!

How wide do you hold your vision?

Do you consistently use the 2-step?

One thing I can never get my head round is how some people can tell exactly what speed they are doing when they enter or exit turns, how do you know that you increased your entry speed by 6 mph or your exit speed by 15 mph?

 

Bobby

[Jaybird180]

The only time I use my speedo is on the street.

 

Thanks for suggesting visual drills. This was something I was working on prior to my L1/L2

[RonniB]

my answer to your posted example, would be, to not increase your entry speed, but the rate of roll on after the apex combined with standing the bike up a little earlier, then you can take advantage of the extra space.. And all while getting a better exit

 

Ronni

[Fajita Dave]

The question above being can you only vary speed and change the exit point and if this is a good way of determining that you've gotten the speed right?

 

In my opinion exit speed has very little to do with your entry speed. From my limited experience exit speed is mostly decided by your on-throttle point, apex (which can change your on-throttle point), and how heavy you can get on the throttle. Your overall corner speed will have an effect but if you're near the max lean angle with a decent entry it wont make a big difference on exit speed.

 

Just because you could go much faster through the exit doesn't mean you can go any faster through the entry. For me the entry speed is decided whether I can reach my apex or not. If I go wide and don't reach the apex my entry speed was to fast. If I don't use all of the track at the exit that means I can either get on the throttle sooner or harder, how much more throttle I can use is decided by visual cues and if traction allows for it. If I still can't use all of the track on the exit I might need a slightly earlier apex. I feel like I can enter a corner slightly faster with an earlier apex but it will make the exit wider.

 

Like other people have said there are still a lot of variables that could be caused by something other then the line you're using. Thats the kind of stuff I don't know much about yet. I used to have a habit of apexing way to early which I think came from my off-road experience. An early apex didn't really matter on the motocross track because you'll just slam it into a berm or rut and rocket out of the corner anyway. So now that I'm playing on asphault I've spent a lot of time studing how the lines work and how braking/throttle inputs effect them .

[ozfireblade]

It really sounds like a level 2 drill, maybe try the pickup drill and get that head up looking ahead prior to hitting your apex and roll that throttle on

[Jaybird180]

I get the impression that you guys don't think this is important? (sigh......)

 

I see it as Rider A enters at 80 mph, Rider B enters at 60mph. They both get on the gas at an established apex. Who completes the turn first and is back down the straight?

[stuman]

Hey Jayson, I don't think the advice you got at summit point was all that bad. If you are leaving a ton of room on the exit then you probably can go faster, but it doesn't necessarily mean you can go IN faster.

 

 

One point about the exit. I think it is a good idea to try within reason to hold the bike tight on the exit of a corner. If you have a buffer coming off the corner then you know you might be able to use some of that up and go faster. It's how you decide to use your buffer that is important.

 

If you intentionally run the bike to the outside edge of the track coming off a corner, you don't really have a good idea of how much you have left. Know what I mean?

 

If you can consistently hold the bike a little tight coming off the corner you might try using that buffer up by standing the bike sooner and getting on the gas harder. Then you can use up some of that buffer and gain some exit speed.

 

 

 

Back to the original point of your post...

 

I think it is hard to judge your entry speed based on how you exit the corner. I think you're better off gaging it using your turn point and apex.

 

Where you able to put the bike where you wanted it to be at the apex?

Did you turn exactly where you wanted to?

Were you able to relax just after turn in? Or were you tense?

Were you able to end your braking where you intended? Or did you get hung up on the brakes going in?

How soon did you get back on the gas?

How quick did you turn the bike?

 

These are just a few things that you can use to judge your entry speed after the fact. I'm sure we could think of many more.

 

 

The point is if you turned the bike where you wanted, turned it quick, got your braking done where you wanted, got back in the gas right away and nailed your apex then chances are your entry speed was "correct".

 

 

If you turn the bike slow because you were scared, or weren't able to relax right away, or blew your apex, or were afraid to get back on the gas until the corner was done, or got hung up on the brakes then you might have over cooked it a bit.

 

 

If you did everything right but felt like you could have gone faster then you probably could have.

 

 

 

Gains in entry speed come very slowly for most and you have to cut yourself a little slack. You're not going to be able to add 10mph going into most corners without giving yourself a coronary. You have to be satisfied with small gains over time and keep working at it.

 

 

I work on my entry speed all the time and I'm never satisfied. However, there have been times when I felt like I was riding really well and that feeling had a lot to do with my confidence going into the corner.

 

I think entry speed is one of the toughest things for any rider to improve. My best advice is ... baby steps. Don't bite off more then you can chew, you will only set yourself back. Work your speed up slowly, like .01 mph increments.

[Hotfoot]

Hey Jayson, I don't think the advice you got at summit point was all that bad. If you are leaving a ton of room on the exit then you probably can go faster, but it doesn't necessarily mean you can go IN faster.

 

 

One point about the exit. I think it is a good idea to try within reason to hold the bike tight on the exit of a corner. If you have a buffer coming off the corner then you know you might be able to use some of that up and go faster. It's how you decide to use your buffer that is important.

 

If you intentionally run the bike to the outside edge of the track coming off a corner, you don't really have a good idea of how much you have left. Know what I mean?

 

If you can consistently hold the bike a little tight coming off the corner you might try using that buffer up by standing the bike sooner and getting on the gas harder. Then you can use up some of that buffer and gain some exit speed.

 

 

 

Back to the original point of your post...

 

I think it is hard to judge your entry speed based on how you exit the corner. I think you're better off gaging it using your turn point and apex.

 

Where you able to put the bike where you wanted it to be at the apex?

Did you turn exactly where you wanted to?

Were you able to relax just after turn in? Or were you tense?

Were you able to end your braking where you intended? Or did you get hung up on the brakes going in?

How soon did you get back on the gas?

How quick did you turn the bike?

 

These are just a few things that you can use to judge your entry speed after the fact. I'm sure we could think of many more.

 

 

The point is if you turned the bike where you wanted, turned it quick, got your braking done where you wanted, got back in the gas right away and nailed your apex then chances are your entry speed was "correct".

 

 

If you turn the bike slow because you were scared, or weren't able to relax right away, or blew your apex, or were afraid to get back on the gas until the corner was done, or got hung up on the brakes then you might have over cooked it a bit.

 

 

If you did everything right but felt like you could have gone faster then you probably could have.

 

 

 

Gains in entry speed come very slowly for most and you have to cut yourself a little slack. You're not going to be able to add 10mph going into most corners without giving yourself a coronary. You have to be satisfied with small gains over time and keep working at it.

 

 

I work on my entry speed all the time and I'm never satisfied. However, there have been times when I felt like I was riding really well and that feeling had a lot to do with my confidence going into the corner.

 

I think entry speed is one of the toughest things for any rider to improve. My best advice is ... baby steps. Don't bite off more then you can chew, you will only set yourself back. Work your speed up slowly, like .01 mph increments.

 

 

What a fantastic post! I think I'm going to print this out and take it with me to track days. It is really, really easy to get caught up in trying to push yourself to improve entry speed and it sure can be a frustrating experience, and your post clarifies that extremely well. Recently a riding buddy of mine got really focused on entry and although he didn't realize it, he slowed WAY, WAY down. He thought he was really pushing himself, and he WAS going into the corners faster than me but suddenly I was blowing him away on laptimes, because he was losing so much on his midcorner and exit. It was a great learning experience for me to watch it happen to HIM, because when it happens to ME I am so aggravated that I can't learn a damn thing. Being able to observe it dispassionately was very enlightening!

[stuman]

I'm glad I could help

[Jaybird180]

Stuman,

 

Your response was both sobering yet inspirational.