RedWarr1oooRR Posted January 16, 2010 Report Share Posted January 16, 2010 Ok, so I'm more of a TIT guy. (Think It Thru silly!) T&E is too expensive for me. My realization on practicing "pivot steering" finally clicked today! After a post from Keith when he said the pressure of the outside leg and inside arm coincide and tense/relax at the same time. Before I share this excellant piece of knowledge with the awesome group of people here, I would like to thank Keith Code and staff for breaking everything down to a science and making it easier to understand. If you like this example of "pivot steering" which I think everyone who rides will! Please remember the waRRior from Hawaii. Here's MY explanation of "Power Steering" (i'm a personal trainer btw - teaching by demonstration is my thing) -hold push-up position This simulates just the basic contact points on the bike(pegs and bars). Lift one hand off the ground (strong man/woman!) You start to feel your stable points - opposite leg of hand that's still on the ground - easy yeah? Now comes the magical moment... With the hand that's off the ground, TRY lift something with considerable weight off the ground. What happens to one of your feet while lifting? "Ah hah!" Not just the push is represented in counter-steering, but the pull as well! Pivot, the ultimate push and/or pull! Thank you guys so much for your time and I hope this benefits you in some way. All the information from here has helped me become a better rider. THANKS! redwaRR Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaybird180 Posted January 16, 2010 Report Share Posted January 16, 2010 Good to go! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
faffi Posted January 16, 2010 Report Share Posted January 16, 2010 Since you brought up push/pull - do most of you push with one arm, or pull with the other - or both at once to initiate a turn? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RedWarr1oooRR Posted January 17, 2010 Author Report Share Posted January 17, 2010 Since you brought up push/pull - do most of you push with one arm, or pull with the other - or both at once to initiate a turn? Gonna do an instructor post... When you handle anything? Driving a car, holding a baby, lighting a cigarette - what's the more efficient way of doing it? The reason being is you "HAVE" to be able to push/pull with both arms and be "AWARE" of it ALONG with the footing you have on the bike. Today I came up with another experiment... *at the store* *took a shopping cart* *stuck one side against the wall* *tried to turn the cart 'into' the wall* More I "tried turning" more I noticed where the power was and where the power wasn't with my feet. When I rode today, the way I would apply this concept is: Set-up: Closed course, open road, safety first! *throttle control decent speed* 1. Ride(weight) on the balls of both feet 50/50 each foot (active stance/anchor) 2. No weight on the arms (chicken wing your heart out) Now comes the "SHAM-WOW!" Because you're riding on the balls of the feet and you're ALREADY applying pressure to them to anchor(Light in the saddle!) 3. Un-weight ONE side - you start to "fall" towards that side of the bike (being a good passenger) 3. Counter-steer SAME time (loss of stability that foot had - will give the body/mind a "lever/lean" or internal gauge to work with) Once you establish the your lean angle -> catch yourself by 4. Apply weight back onto the peg ~50/50 (stop "falling") 4. Roll-on to stabilize (go as possible, let the ) 5. Enjoy the power/pivot/legs-run steering. 6. Increase rate of roll-on until you find the limits of traction... Before I used to think "2-D" or hands only(input) with counter-steering. Now with this, you have become a "walking", breathing, cornering machine. Straights have just gotten $10 easier... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RedWarr1oooRR Posted January 17, 2010 Author Report Share Posted January 17, 2010 I'd like to throw in another concept for thought. Pivot steer the Pick-up drill = "ala slide straightener" After the "fall", after the apex, "Pull" yourself while adding weight to inside peg for ~active STABLE exit. How does this sound? What it seems is like your stable hand/stable foot should be doing the steady push(hold). BUT your (pivot)steering is done with a good "pull" ("pick-up" speeds up the process "between" a series of turns) POWER STEERING! WOOHOO! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
faffi Posted January 17, 2010 Report Share Posted January 17, 2010 I'll freely admit I have trouble following your posts, RW. I don't use my feet/legs a lot while riding. If I let go of the handlebars, I use my upper body a lot to make the bike steer, although that does move some of the forces down to my feet. By grabbing the fuel tank hard with my knees, the lower parts of my legs are less involved and the bike feels more stable to me. Just stepping on the pegs with various weight doesn't, to me, seem to have the same amount of influence on the machine. When riding normally, as in holding the handlebars, it seems to me that whether I pull only or push only, the force hardly bypass by arse. I use a very quick "snap" on the bars - I usually pull some and push more - and this doesn't seem to overpower the friction between my leathers and the seat. For racing, it obviously makes a lot of sense to stand on the pegs and use the whole body to force the machine into submission, but it sounds like a tiring way to ride for 3-400 miles in a day on the road. In my experience, you can make the bike turn very quickly with very little effort. Use the power of the torso by stiffening the shoulder and arm for a quick strong flick while pulling on the other side simulataneously seems to me like a much better way to stay fresh and alert during long street rides. But opinions may - and will - vary, no doubt Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaybird180 Posted January 17, 2010 Report Share Posted January 17, 2010 Trust me, doing the pickup this way WILL wear you out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RedWarr1oooRR Posted January 17, 2010 Author Report Share Posted January 17, 2010 I'm sorry Eirick and Jaybird, It does sound a little much. Let me try to unravel this spider-web of an idea. Before I do, let's enjoy this video... Rebuttal point - pivot steering = max turning rate. Max turning rate will tire anyone out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
faffi Posted January 18, 2010 Report Share Posted January 18, 2010 Rebuttal point - pivot steering = max turning rate. Max turning rate will tire anyone out. Then it starts to make sense Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
faffi Posted January 18, 2010 Report Share Posted January 18, 2010 BTW, after watching your link, the next video that was suggested was this one: Can anybody explain what went wrong here? Neither pace nor the amount of lean suggest to me that they were anywhere near the limit Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bullet Posted January 18, 2010 Report Share Posted January 18, 2010 BTW, after watching your link, the next video that was suggested was this one: Can anybody explain what went wrong here? Neither pace nor the amount of lean suggest to me that they were anywhere near the limit Hmm, it's very tricky to see to be honest, though I suspect it's a combo of 1) cold tyre, 2), the rider has a bit of a tendency to come on and off the throttle. It just looked like he turned and gass'ed it a little at the same time to me and the back came round he chopped it, and it threw him over the high side. Subtle one though wasn't it..? Bullet Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
harnois Posted January 18, 2010 Report Share Posted January 18, 2010 In the video description and the comments he says he locked up the brakes trying to avoid his buddy who had crashed in front of him. And he says in hindsight he would have been better off the swerve around instead of braking. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bullet Posted January 18, 2010 Report Share Posted January 18, 2010 In the video description and the comments he says he locked up the brakes trying to avoid his buddy who had crashed in front of him. And he says in hindsight he would have been better off the swerve around instead of braking. It can only have been the rear brake to flip him over like that, if it had been front, he'd have lowsided. Bullet Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
faffi Posted January 18, 2010 Report Share Posted January 18, 2010 Also, if it was due to braking, it was a panick reaction and not controlled. I can do that Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RedWarr1oooRR Posted January 19, 2010 Author Report Share Posted January 19, 2010 here's a unexpected highside... Had a group ride today, two guys went down. 1st guy - 1st turn = cold tire 2nd guy - 1st turn = target fixation(behind 1st rider). Both are ok and were geared up. Sux for the bikes but you learn from it, I know I did. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RedWarr1oooRR Posted January 19, 2010 Author Report Share Posted January 19, 2010 I wonder about actual "good steering" position now. "Parallel forearms?" Might have to be careful, extreme elbow draggin now! Ben Spies might be on to something... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
faffi Posted January 19, 2010 Report Share Posted January 19, 2010 here's a unexpected highside... Had a group ride today, two guys went down. 1st guy - 1st turn = cold tire 2nd guy - 1st turn = target fixation(behind 1st rider). Both are ok and were geared up. Sux for the bikes but you learn from it, I know I did. I only saw one rider go down? Anyway, it's almost impossible to believe how easy it is to perform a highsider. Sometimes, you even see top rank world class racers falling off at ridiculously low speeds - and usually they do not even understand what happened. So far, such incidents have eluded me, knock wood. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cobie Fair Posted January 19, 2010 Report Share Posted January 19, 2010 here's a unexpected highside... Had a group ride today, two guys went down. 1st guy - 1st turn = cold tire 2nd guy - 1st turn = target fixation(behind 1st rider). Both are ok and were geared up. Sux for the bikes but you learn from it, I know I did. I only saw one rider go down? Anyway, it's almost impossible to believe how easy it is to perform a highsider. Sometimes, you even see top rank world class racers falling off at ridiculously low speeds - and usually they do not even understand what happened. So far, such incidents have eluded me, knock wood. Kind of amazing how many guys that should know better fall on cold tires. I wonder if in 10 years down the road, we'll have a tire temp guage on the bikes--hey, maybe I could invent one! CF Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
faffi Posted January 19, 2010 Report Share Posted January 19, 2010 Kind of amazing how many guys that should know better fall on cold tires. I wonder if in 10 years down the road, we'll have a tire temp guage on the bikes--hey, maybe I could invent one! CF It seems that the more grip a tyre can give when in its ideal operating range, the less grip it has when cold. More touring oriented tyres seems generally to grip fine from the first corner. That said, I cannot fault the grip from the several years old Bridgestone BT001 type 4 (softest compound) front even around the first roundabout 300 yards up the road even on very cool days. It has more grip than I have nerve under all conditions. The rubber is so soft, that sharp stones up to 4 mm across will cut the rubber and create permanent marks, yet it still doesn't seem to wear any quicker than most tyres. Not bad for a tyre I got for free Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaybird180 Posted January 28, 2010 Report Share Posted January 28, 2010 Kind of amazing how many guys that should know better fall on cold tires. I wonder if in 10 years down the road, we'll have a tire temp guage on the bikes--hey, maybe I could invent one! CF I thought the same until I found that GP bikes already have one plugged into their data package. Maybe you could do one better and patent that!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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