acebobby Posted May 3, 2010 Report Share Posted May 3, 2010 HI guys and girls I just thought I'd post this to see what your opinions on this are! On friday I had a low side crash that really caught me by surprise, I cannot figure out what I did wrong and it is messing with my head a little, the thing is i know that I never chopped the throttle and as far as I'm aware I followed all the other rules of cornering! The one thing that I cannot remember is how many laps I had done before I crashed, I never took any bad injuries away but I did take quite a hard fall, followed by getting hit by a stray CBR1000RR, So it could be possible that my tyres werent up to temp, infact It has all the signs of cold tyres I think! As it happens someone caught this crash on video and stuck it on youtube so I thought I would post it here to see if any of you guys see something that I am missing, I am on the lead bike, the dude on the white fireblade grabbed the brakes when I came off, I really felt bad for him! Bobby Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cobie Fair Posted May 3, 2010 Report Share Posted May 3, 2010 Bobby, Looks like you lost the front and might have been slowing (the camera bike seemed to be gaining ground). What lap was it, and how many turns on that side fo the tire? Was it dramatically faster than the lap before? What was the temp of the day, and any wind (cool wind really cools tires off if one pulls over). CF Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bullet Posted May 3, 2010 Report Share Posted May 3, 2010 Bobby, Looks like you lost the front and might have been slowing (the camera bike seemed to be gaining ground). What lap was it, and how many turns on that side fo the tire? Was it dramatically faster than the lap before? What was the temp of the day, and any wind (cool wind really cools tires off if one pulls over). CF Hi bobby, Sorry to hear about your off mate, at least you're ok, you'll ride again, and get past this. I watched the Video, and it's tricky to tell, you did look like you had a lot of lean angle to me. If you were on the throttle, it does have cold tyres written all over it really, if not, then perhaps some weight on the inside bar? I noted your pics in your other thread though, and to be honest, I wasn't seeing lots of weight on the bars, but you'd know better than us..? How old were the tyres? Do you use warmers? Done many trackdays before? How many heat cycles they been through? Bullet Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
acebobby Posted May 4, 2010 Author Report Share Posted May 4, 2010 Bobby, Looks like you lost the front and might have been slowing (the camera bike seemed to be gaining ground). What lap was it, and how many turns on that side fo the tire? Was it dramatically faster than the lap before? What was the temp of the day, and any wind (cool wind really cools tires off if one pulls over). CF Hi bobby, Sorry to hear about your off mate, at least you're ok, you'll ride again, and get past this. I watched the Video, and it's tricky to tell, you did look like you had a lot of lean angle to me. If you were on the throttle, it does have cold tyres written all over it really, if not, then perhaps some weight on the inside bar? I noted your pics in your other thread though, and to be honest, I wasn't seeing lots of weight on the bars, but you'd know better than us..? How old were the tyres? Do you use warmers? Done many trackdays before? How many heat cycles they been through? Bullet Thanks for the quick replies guys, Cobie, It was less than 10 degrees at the track, wind wasn't bad and it was dry, the track is short, about 1 mile, and has 5 right hand turns and 2 left so the bike had spent a good bit of time on that side, The interesting thing is when you asked "Was it dramatically faster than the lap before?" I think that it probably was, I dont know why but I seem to be a slow starter and gradually build speed up throughout the day, I imagine if I had a lap timer every lap would be faster than the last! Bullet, I put alot of focus and effort into being loose on the bars, It was drummed into my head by JET on my level 1 so I would think that as I improve and speed up, being relaxed is key! How old were the tyres? They were brand new Metzeler M3s that morning and had 58 miles of track use on them when I crashed! Do you use warmers? No I dont but I think I will be buying a set for sure! How many heat cycles they been through? I think they would have been on there 3rd but as they are road tyres I dont think it matters! I will be getting the bike back to good working order ASAP, and am desperate to get back on track and get over this little fall, from a psychological point of view it would be easier for me to assume that a cold tyre was to blame. l hate to blame tyres but could it be that I should be using more track focused tyres, i.e qualifier RRs, supercorsa's etc! Again thanks for the feedback guys, it clears things up in my head as I have a right problem with overthinking things! Bobby Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
faffi Posted May 5, 2010 Report Share Posted May 5, 2010 You seemed to be leaned over quite a bit more than the bloke following you, and also quite a bit compared to just about anything, from what little I saw on screen. Could you just have overextended the available grip? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
acebobby Posted May 5, 2010 Author Report Share Posted May 5, 2010 You seemed to be leaned over quite a bit more than the bloke following you, and also quite a bit compared to just about anything, from what little I saw on screen. Could you just have overextended the available grip? Ok Eric thanks for your opinion on this but I am a bit confused about your coment "Could you just have overextended the available grip?" I cant resolve any issues in my head thinking like that! A little about me at this track, this was my first trackday here this year and I quickly discovered that I was a fair bit quicker than I used to be, so much so that I had to find some places where I could pass slower riders, so for that purpose I was experimenting with a few different lines, I had found that if I could get close enough to the lead rider by the end of the straight, go through turn 1 and 2 take a late entry into turn 3 (where I crashed) I could get on the power early and pass on the exit of this turn up the inside towards turn 4, I had made this work a couple of times throughout the morning especially against bigger bikes that I could not pass on the straight! Now if you look at the video it looks like I was hoping to go for this move on the rider in front of me, meaning I was carrying more lean angle than normal because I would have had to exit in the middle of the track, watching the video I dont think I would have been close enough to make the move work and would have ended up tucking in behind him for turn 4 but it looks like thats the line I was going for! cheers Bobby Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
faffi Posted May 5, 2010 Report Share Posted May 5, 2010 Even Rossi & Co sometimes go down without being able to find an explanation, even with all the telemetry they have. My point was simply that you perhaps leaned over so far that your tyre weren't designed to allow enough grip, at least not in those conditions (temps, tyre pressure, speed, body position, whatever) and that it wasn't a result of you doing anything particular wrong apart from being leaned over a degree too far Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fossilfuel Posted May 5, 2010 Report Share Posted May 5, 2010 You seemed to be leaned over quite a bit more than the bloke following you, and also quite a bit compared to just about anything, from what little I saw on screen. Could you just have overextended the available grip? Ok Eric thanks for your opinion on this but I am a bit confused about your coment "Could you just have overextended the available grip?" I cant resolve any issues in my head thinking like that! A little about me at this track, this was my first trackday here this year and I quickly discovered that I was a fair bit quicker than I used to be, so much so that I had to find some places where I could pass slower riders, so for that purpose I was experimenting with a few different lines, I had found that if I could get close enough to the lead rider by the end of the straight, go through turn 1 and 2 take a late entry into turn 3 (where I crashed) I could get on the power early and pass on the exit of this turn up the inside towards turn 4, I had made this work a couple of times throughout the morning especially against bigger bikes that I could not pass on the straight! Now if you look at the video it looks like I was hoping to go for this move on the rider in front of me, meaning I was carrying more lean angle than normal because I would have had to exit in the middle of the track, watching the video I dont think I would have been close enough to make the move work and would have ended up tucking in behind him for turn 4 but it looks like thats the line I was going for! cheers Bobby Bobby, I hope you don't mind me entering the fray. And by the way it is nice to see you again. I think you created the problem by enterng the corner late and had to much lean angle. I watched through the other corners as well and in my opinion you are not getting off the bike. The body position isn't an issue until you start trying to carry more speed. Your body position looks a little twisted, like you are sliding your hip over but keeping your upper body over the center.I think you could have carried more speed on the same line as the guy in front of you if you could get your upper body off the tank and your chin in your right elbow. You would have blown right passed him. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
acebobby Posted May 7, 2010 Author Report Share Posted May 7, 2010 You seemed to be leaned over quite a bit more than the bloke following you, and also quite a bit compared to just about anything, from what little I saw on screen. Could you just have overextended the available grip? Ok Eric thanks for your opinion on this but I am a bit confused about your coment "Could you just have overextended the available grip?" I cant resolve any issues in my head thinking like that! A little about me at this track, this was my first trackday here this year and I quickly discovered that I was a fair bit quicker than I used to be, so much so that I had to find some places where I could pass slower riders, so for that purpose I was experimenting with a few different lines, I had found that if I could get close enough to the lead rider by the end of the straight, go through turn 1 and 2 take a late entry into turn 3 (where I crashed) I could get on the power early and pass on the exit of this turn up the inside towards turn 4, I had made this work a couple of times throughout the morning especially against bigger bikes that I could not pass on the straight! Now if you look at the video it looks like I was hoping to go for this move on the rider in front of me, meaning I was carrying more lean angle than normal because I would have had to exit in the middle of the track, watching the video I dont think I would have been close enough to make the move work and would have ended up tucking in behind him for turn 4 but it looks like thats the line I was going for! cheers Bobby Bobby, I hope you don't mind me entering the fray. And by the way it is nice to see you again. I think you created the problem by enterng the corner late and had to much lean angle. I watched through the other corners as well and in my opinion you are not getting off the bike. The body position isn't an issue until you start trying to carry more speed. Your body position looks a little twisted, like you are sliding your hip over but keeping your upper body over the center.I think you could have carried more speed on the same line as the guy in front of you if you could get your upper body off the tank and your chin in your right elbow. You would have blown right passed him. Thanks fossilfuel, of course I dont mind you entering the discussion, all opinions are welcome! What you are saying about my body position at higher speeds makes sense to me and gives me an area to look at, this web link is of a few photos of me before the crash that morning and are mostly taken through the hairpin so are quite slow but the last 2 look like they are at a faster turn and my body position doesn't look so good. http://www.trackpix.co.uk/showgallery.asp?gal=30-04-10%20-%20Bobby%20CBR600rr The other thing about turning in late has opened a can of worms in my mind as this was something I spent alot of attention on achieving, on track and road I always try to turn a little later, have I got this wrong? Bobby Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hotfoot Posted May 7, 2010 Report Share Posted May 7, 2010 You seemed to be leaned over quite a bit more than the bloke following you, and also quite a bit compared to just about anything, from what little I saw on screen. Could you just have overextended the available grip? Ok Eric thanks for your opinion on this but I am a bit confused about your coment "Could you just have overextended the available grip?" I cant resolve any issues in my head thinking like that! A little about me at this track, this was my first trackday here this year and I quickly discovered that I was a fair bit quicker than I used to be, so much so that I had to find some places where I could pass slower riders, so for that purpose I was experimenting with a few different lines, I had found that if I could get close enough to the lead rider by the end of the straight, go through turn 1 and 2 take a late entry into turn 3 (where I crashed) I could get on the power early and pass on the exit of this turn up the inside towards turn 4, I had made this work a couple of times throughout the morning especially against bigger bikes that I could not pass on the straight! Now if you look at the video it looks like I was hoping to go for this move on the rider in front of me, meaning I was carrying more lean angle than normal because I would have had to exit in the middle of the track, watching the video I dont think I would have been close enough to make the move work and would have ended up tucking in behind him for turn 4 but it looks like thats the line I was going for! cheers Bobby Bobby, I hope you don't mind me entering the fray. And by the way it is nice to see you again. I think you created the problem by enterng the corner late and had to much lean angle. I watched through the other corners as well and in my opinion you are not getting off the bike. The body position isn't an issue until you start trying to carry more speed. Your body position looks a little twisted, like you are sliding your hip over but keeping your upper body over the center.I think you could have carried more speed on the same line as the guy in front of you if you could get your upper body off the tank and your chin in your right elbow. You would have blown right passed him. Thanks fossilfuel, of course I dont mind you entering the discussion, all opinions are welcome! What you are saying about my body position at higher speeds makes sense to me and gives me an area to look at, this web link is of a few photos of me before the crash that morning and are mostly taken through the hairpin so are quite slow but the last 2 look like they are at a faster turn and my body position doesn't look so good. http://www.trackpix.co.uk/showgallery.asp?gal=30-04-10%20-%20Bobby%20CBR600rr The other thing about turning in late has opened a can of worms in my mind as this was something I spent alot of attention on achieving, on track and road I always try to turn a little later, have I got this wrong? Bobby Regarding a late turn point, there are lots of advantages to late turn points, as you have already noticed... but it's possible to take it too far, and I've done it! Picture an extreme example (it helps to draw this, draw a 90 degree turn with a REALLY deep turn point), if you turn really, really late, you can end up making the corner tighter (the turn angle more acute) and you can end up with less room to ride, by not using the whole track. Think of it this way, if you "square off a corner" too much, what does your turn angle look like, and what happens to your entry speed? Or, if you keep your enrty speed the same, what happens to your lean angle? An quick check is to observe whether you can hit your desired apex point; at a track I ride often there is a tight decreasing radius turn that requires a very late turn point. Sometimes I go in a bit too deep in that turn, then find myself 8 feet away from the inside curb, and that's how I know immediately I turned in too late, I can't make my apex. And usually it's right about then that someone passes me on the inside, having seen from behind that I was going wide AND slowing down too much. At the school a suggested experiment is to pick a turn, choose a turn point, then try turning before it, on it, and after it, and see how things change with an earlier or later turn point. Sometimes it's worthwhile to go in WAY too deep, just to see what happens to your vision, your entry speed, your line, etc., it's very educational, and of course that is the exercise that fixed it for me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
acebobby Posted May 10, 2010 Author Report Share Posted May 10, 2010 Thanks Hotfoot, that makes sense and next time I'm on track I will work on that drill to find the sweetspot turnpoint I am looking for! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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