lant5 Posted August 23, 2010 Report Share Posted August 23, 2010 I was on another thread discussing about a problem I have with hard braking.. I've just started riding Advanced group on trackdays for about half a season.. and we all know with higher level of riding comes faster speed and harder braking. Well, I don't have strong forearms to deal with long, constant hard brakings.. my right wrist and arm get fatigued easily(in 3-5laps) due to hard pressure and vibration caused under braking.. what's the best way to fix the problem?? A member-Khp mentioned hands and forearm fatigue should not be happening when braking.. I kinda agree.. but I don't have a solution to it! I know squeezing the tank with my knees would help, but it actually delays my pre-corner entry setup.. I usually stick my knee out before braking is complete. And when that happens I rely more on my arms to keep me from going forward. how should your hands and arms feel when you are braking hard?? What I normally do is I firmly apply my front brake while trying to maintain my forearms as level(parallel to the bike) as possible at the same time keeping myself as close to the back of the seat as possible.. which would be almost like fist clinching hard on the brake lever and the grip while pushing my body away from the front of the bike with my stiffened arms.. the force is quite intense, and that took a lot of strength and energy to do. How is it possible to hard brake without gripping on strongly?? Thanks Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ozfireblade Posted August 23, 2010 Report Share Posted August 23, 2010 I was on another thread discussing about a problem I have with hard braking.. I've just started riding Advanced group on trackdays for about half a season.. and we all know with higher level of riding comes faster speed and harder braking. Well, I don't have strong forearms to deal with long, constant hard brakings.. my right wrist and arm get fatigued easily(in 3-5laps) due to hard pressure and vibration caused under braking.. what's the best way to fix the problem?? A member-Khp mentioned hands and forearm fatigue should not be happening when braking.. I kinda agree.. but I don't have a solution to it! I know squeezing the tank with my knees would help, but it actually delays my pre-corner entry setup.. I usually stick my knee out before braking is complete. And when that happens I rely more on my arms to keep me from going forward. how should your hands and arms feel when you are braking hard?? What I normally do is I firmly apply my front brake while trying to maintain my forearms as level(parallel to the bike) as possible at the same time keeping myself as close to the back of the seat as possible.. which would be almost like fist clinching hard on the brake lever and the grip while pushing my body away from the front of the bike with my stiffened arms.. the force is quite intense, and that took a lot of strength and energy to do. How is it possible to hard brake without gripping on strongly?? Thanks Hey mate, I tried answering that one for you in the other thread Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
faffi Posted August 23, 2010 Report Share Posted August 23, 2010 I'm no expert, but I always slide up against the tank when I brake, both to load the front and to get more weight over the front when turning. A side benefit is that my groin is den resting against the fuel tank, taking a bit of the strain from the arms and also makes it easier to grab effectively with just one knee. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stuman Posted August 23, 2010 Report Share Posted August 23, 2010 Well, I would advise you do the opposite of what Eirik suggests. when approaching a corner set your lower body position using a two step process well before the corner. Move your butt back away from the tank and then over into the position you would like to retain throughout the corner before you brake. now that you have your butt where it needs to be you can start braking. When you do apply the brakes, pinch both sides of the tank hard with your knees to keep yourself from sliding forward (tech-spec or stomp grip really helps). This is very difficult and will feel very awkward because it is hard to grip the tank with your inside knee when your butt of off the side of the seat. It is even harder to downshift when you are all twisted like this and it takes a lot of practice to become comfortable in this position. At first you will feel all twisted up and that is normal. While pinching the tank with your knees you also can use your core muscles to stabilize your upper body. Again this is not easy and it takes some practice. I'm not sure using your legs and core will allow you to keep your arms 100% relaxed (I've never been able to achieve this), but it will take as much pressure off your arms as possible. Do Not let your inside leg off the tank until you are done braking or until you start to lean in. You but should already be in position, so when your turn in all you have to don is stick your knee our and lean your upper body into the corner. I hope this helps. Braking hard and late on the track does put a tremendous amount of force on your body. The best you can do is use the larger muscle groups in your legs and your core to counter this. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
faffi Posted August 23, 2010 Report Share Posted August 23, 2010 Listen to the expert and ignore me - he knows what he's talking about, I just tell what (errors) I make. I should point out that by "sliding" I do not mean sliding forward for every corner, but that I like to sit as far forward as possible when I ride hard. I use my knees as well as my arms to support myself. I never hang off, so that's not an issue for me. Again, please listen to Stuman and try to follow what he's telling you - you can only benefit from it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stuman Posted August 23, 2010 Report Share Posted August 23, 2010 Just FYI Eirik, when you sit very forward on the bike, against the tank, it kinda forces you into a twisted body position when you try to hang off and can lead to really bad form. I know you don't hang off, but I assumed because the OP was riding in the advanced group at track days that he was probably hanging off the bike and sliding forward against the tank could do more harm then good. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
faffi Posted August 23, 2010 Report Share Posted August 23, 2010 Thanks for clearing that up, Stuman I wonder, apart from that, are the other issues I should be aware of when sitting forward? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stuman Posted August 23, 2010 Report Share Posted August 23, 2010 Not really, I think if you don't hang off the bike (move your butt off the seat some) then sitting up against the tank is probably fine and I can't think of any problems it might cause. When you start to hang off the bike it is important to slide back away from the tank some to allow you to move across the bike without getting twisted. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lant5 Posted August 24, 2010 Author Report Share Posted August 24, 2010 Well, I would advise you do the opposite of what Eirik suggests. when approaching a corner set your lower body position using a two step process well before the corner. Move your butt back away from the tank and then over into the position you would like to retain throughout the corner before you brake. now that you have your butt where it needs to be you can start braking. When you do apply the brakes, pinch both sides of the tank hard with your knees to keep yourself from sliding forward (tech-spec or stomp grip really helps). This is very difficult and will feel very awkward because it is hard to grip the tank with your inside knee when your butt of off the side of the seat. It is even harder to downshift when you are all twisted like this and it takes a lot of practice to become comfortable in this position. At first you will feel all twisted up and that is normal. While pinching the tank with your knees you also can use your core muscles to stabilize your upper body. Again this is not easy and it takes some practice. I'm not sure using your legs and core will allow you to keep your arms 100% relaxed (I've never been able to achieve this), but it will take as much pressure off your arms as possible. Do Not let your inside leg off the tank until you are done braking or until you start to lean in. You but should already be in position, so when your turn in all you have to don is stick your knee our and lean your upper body into the corner. I hope this helps. Braking hard and late on the track does put a tremendous amount of force on your body. The best you can do is use the larger muscle groups in your legs and your core to counter this. Wow~ this is by far the best advice I heard!! Thank you! I think you have just about cleared up my mind and found a solution for me.. this is awesome!! Yes you're right.. I should get myself a stomp grip and start practicing that technique you mentioned. I'm glad that at least I'm doing something right(moving my weight back during braking) next time I will slow down my pace on the track to practice this until I feel comfortable. one thing though.. You mentioned "Do Not let your inside leg off the tank until you are done braking or until you start to lean in." I understand this is ideal, but what would you do under circumstance you have to trail brake?? Thanks Stuman Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lant5 Posted August 24, 2010 Author Report Share Posted August 24, 2010 Listen to the expert and ignore me - he knows what he's talking about, I just tell what (errors) I make. I should point out that by "sliding" I do not mean sliding forward for every corner, but that I like to sit as far forward as possible when I ride hard. I use my knees as well as my arms to support myself. I never hang off, so that's not an issue for me. Again, please listen to Stuman and try to follow what he's telling you - you can only benefit from it. what you said made sense really, its just that I'm not used to sitting close to the tank(btw I'm 6'0" with long torso), my helmet will be hitting the windscreen if I tuck in. Like Stuman said it's hard to maneuver.. so I'll use Stuman's technique to stabilize my lower body and core. Nonetheless, I appreciate your attempt to help.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jasonzilla Posted August 24, 2010 Report Share Posted August 24, 2010 I'm not a fan of the crotch to tank thing. I don't corner with my crotch on the tank, so if I'm going to lean into the corner with my crotch against the tank I'm going to have to slide around to get into the right position. When I'm coming off the brakes and adjusting more for entry speed, I stick my leg out and the pressure I can apply on one side with my knee out (stompgrip) I'm still off the bars. I used to put so much pressure on the bars that my left ring and pinky fingers were numb for a while after my trackday. It takes work to brake that bad habit, but it will really pay off. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lant5 Posted August 24, 2010 Author Report Share Posted August 24, 2010 I'm not a fan of the crotch to tank thing. I don't corner with my crotch on the tank, so if I'm going to lean into the corner with my crotch against the tank I'm going to have to slide around to get into the right position. When I'm coming off the brakes and adjusting more for entry speed, I stick my leg out and the pressure I can apply on one side with my knee out (stompgrip) I'm still off the bars. I used to put so much pressure on the bars that my left ring and pinky fingers were numb for a while after my trackday. It takes work to brake that bad habit, but it will really pay off. I'm glad I wasn't the only one experiencing this.. because these numb hands and arm pump problem didn't seem to bother my track buddies so I always thought it was only my problem.. thanks for sharing it. Btw Jasonzilla, I'm not sure I understand what you mean by "When I'm coming off the brakes and adjusting more for entry speed, I stick my leg out and the pressure I can apply on one side with my knee out (stompgrip) I'm still off the bars." would you please clarify? Thanks Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jasonzilla Posted August 24, 2010 Report Share Posted August 24, 2010 I'm glad I wasn't the only one experiencing this.. because these numb hands and arm pump problem didn't seem to bother my track buddies so I always thought it was only my problem.. thanks for sharing it. Btw Jasonzilla, I'm not sure I understand what you mean by "When I'm coming off the brakes and adjusting more for entry speed, I stick my leg out and the pressure I can apply on one side with my knee out (stompgrip) I'm still off the bars." would you please clarify? Thanks I don't hard brake then pop off the brakes and dip it in or trailbrake. There is about a second when I'm not hard braking but still braking (while coming off the brakes) and adjusting to get where I'm comfortable with my entry speed. That's when my knee goes out. I know it's a long time and distance at 80 mph, but it's the habit I have. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stuman Posted August 24, 2010 Report Share Posted August 24, 2010 one thing though.. You mentioned "Do Not let your inside leg off the tank until you are done braking or until you start to lean in." I understand this is ideal, but what would you do under circumstance you have to trail brake?? Thanks Stuman When trailbraking I typically stick my knee out when I start to lean in. When trailbraking you're not really braking that hard after you lean in, so there isn't as much force that is trying to throw you forward... I can think of a turn or two where I'm trailbraking really hard and have both knees against the tank even after I have started to lean in (usually not too far leaned over though, just bending it in on the brakes), but as a rule I think it would be OK to say that I take my knee off when I start to lean. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lukem Posted August 24, 2010 Report Share Posted August 24, 2010 Just FYI Eirik, when you sit very forward on the bike, against the tank, it kinda forces you into a twisted body position when you try to hang off and can lead to really bad form. I know you don't hang off, but I assumed because the OP was riding in the advanced group at track days that he was probably hanging off the bike and sliding forward against the tank could do more harm then good. Plus it puts the ol' crown jewels into a more compromising position! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lant5 Posted August 25, 2010 Author Report Share Posted August 25, 2010 When trailbraking I typically stick my knee out when I start to lean in. When trailbraking you're not really braking that hard after you lean in, so there isn't as much force that is trying to throw you forward... I can think of a turn or two where I'm trailbraking really hard and have both knees against the tank even after I have started to lean in (usually not too far leaned over though, just bending it in on the brakes), but as a rule I think it would be OK to say that I take my knee off when I start to lean. Awesome!! Stuman, reading your post has been like a clinic.. and you painted the picture so well! Thanks last thing about braking.. the last couple of days after reading your posts, I've been looking at some video footages of MotoGP, SBK, AMA races, especially Rossi, Biaggi, T. Hayden and the top guys. I paid extra attention to their braking movements and their knee positions and was surprised by my own discovery.. Seems like majority of the GP racers initiated braking, straighten their body, and stuck their knee out all at the same time(in one motion). Most of the time I didn't see knees squeezing but instead their knees were out as they're engaging and still under hard braking. Do you have an idea how they might have achieved this without transferring the weight to the bars?? or do you think they were also putting the pressure onto their arms and hands?? Thanks a million Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lant5 Posted August 25, 2010 Author Report Share Posted August 25, 2010 I'm glad I wasn't the only one experiencing this.. because these numb hands and arm pump problem didn't seem to bother my track buddies so I always thought it was only my problem.. thanks for sharing it. Btw Jasonzilla, I'm not sure I understand what you mean by "When I'm coming off the brakes and adjusting more for entry speed, I stick my leg out and the pressure I can apply on one side with my knee out (stompgrip) I'm still off the bars." would you please clarify? Thanks I don't hard brake then pop off the brakes and dip it in or trailbrake. There is about a second when I'm not hard braking but still braking (while coming off the brakes) and adjusting to get where I'm comfortable with my entry speed. That's when my knee goes out. I know it's a long time and distance at 80 mph, but it's the habit I have. i gotcha Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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