troy0907 Posted October 26, 2010 Report Share Posted October 26, 2010 Hi all, Can anyone give me an idea of what is a good throttle control when ride over the crest, especially at the final left hand turn at Broadford track. I found myself rolling on about halfway of the turn then gradually slowly reduce the amount of gas (that is the bike is still on the gas but less). then i wait until the bike is over the crest then pick the bike up and hard on the gas. Thank you. Troy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Progression Posted October 26, 2010 Report Share Posted October 26, 2010 Hi Troy, Dont know the track but are you saying you need to open the gas, hold it steady then open it again? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ozfireblade Posted October 26, 2010 Report Share Posted October 26, 2010 Hi all, Can anyone give me an idea of what is a good throttle control when ride over the crest, especially at the final left hand turn at Broadford track. I found myself rolling on about halfway of the turn then gradually slowly reduce the amount of gas (that is the bike is still on the gas but less). then i wait until the bike is over the crest then pick the bike up and hard on the gas. Thank you. Troy Hi Troy, I was having alot of trouble with that corner as well and also not cracking the throttle until I was over the crest. I found that if I let the bike run wide then hook back in I could crack the throttle, not wide open but more a very gradual roll on or a maintanence type throttle, before the crest that I would get better drive off the turn. The bike will feel slightly light going over the top, but if your hanging off the bike and elbow out to the apex the bike feels more upright personally it gives me more confidence to get on the throttle earlier. I also found that If I look through the marshalls rather than on the apex of the corner it keeps me looking down the track rather than looking out of the corner and running wide. Just wondering if you have done other tracks? Check out some footage of some guy at broadford, just listen to the throttle. I'm out at winton on sunday so if your there come say G'day Dylan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
troy0907 Posted October 27, 2010 Author Report Share Posted October 27, 2010 Thank you Dylan and Progression, I havent been to Winton yet. I want to try it in the future. For now I stick with Bford as it is closer. I will give it a try next time i go to Broadford. I have seen many people highside there so it is a bit scary to overcome it. Troy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vaidas Posted October 27, 2010 Report Share Posted October 27, 2010 Troy, this is interesting, I find crests (especially blind ones which they usually are if they're big enough ) the most challenging (and fun) elements in racing circuits. Can you describe WHY do you feel the need to slightly close the throttle? Vaidas Hi all, I found myself rolling on about halfway of the turn then gradually slowly reduce the amount of gas (that is the bike is still on the gas but less). then i wait until the bike is over the crest then pick the bike up and hard on the gas. Thank you. Troy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
troy0907 Posted October 27, 2010 Author Report Share Posted October 27, 2010 Hi Vaidas, At that turn, it is crest and off camber at the same time. I have seen many highside at that corner (mainly rear wheel slides) So i slightly close the throttle to reduce the light feeling of the bike and really focus on traction of the rear tire. Having said so, I definitely think that corner can be taken at greater speed. I just need to get a more natural, better and less risky way to deal with that turn. Troy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vaidas Posted October 27, 2010 Report Share Posted October 27, 2010 I personally have had problems riding over two particular crests at our local circuit, one of them is especially bumpy and had led me to very dangerous tankslappers because I was adjusting the throttle while leant over - trying to find the grip and hold the line at the same time. Holding the line while playing with the throttle is uneasy in itself, let alone the unloaded suspension trying to deal with the bumps (the Fireblade RRY without a steering damper was especially "interesting" to ride there). I watched local pros wheelying over those crests going full throttle on the exit and couldn't understand what they were doing differently. I was unable to apply the throttle correctly - however had I tried. And then it clicked in me. In a free transcript of CSS instruction: "what is the "correct" line through any given corner?" - "any line you can follow by correctly applying throttle rule No.1 at the same time". In anticipation of a coming scary corner I was turning in too early! Depending on the type of corner, one thing that will definitely help is to try and pick a line that would get the bike over the crest in an as upright position as possible. By moving turn points further (and I mean WAY further) the crests suddenly became none of a problem to me. I was able to apply throttle gradually as soon as I finished turning, and I was coming onto a crest with the bike almost straight up. I imagine this being more complicated if you have a LONG corner with any angle variations (crest, off camber) but then again - throttle rule No. 1 must especially hold true in these cases. Anyway, now the guys with Cadwell Park experience will jump in and clarify on the topic. Hi Vaidas, At that turn, it is crest and off camber at the same time. I have seen many highside at that corner (mainly rear wheel slides) So i slightly close the throttle to reduce the light feeling of the bike and really focus on traction of the rear tire. Having said so, I definitely think that corner can be taken at greater speed. I just need to get a more natural, better and less risky way to deal with that turn. Troy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
khp Posted October 27, 2010 Report Share Posted October 27, 2010 I personally have had problems riding over two particular crests at our local circuit, one of them is especially bumpy and had led me to very dangerous tankslappers because I was adjusting the throttle while leant over - trying to find the grip and hold the line at the same time. Holding the line while playing with the throttle is uneasy in itself, let alone the unloaded suspension trying to deal with the bumps (the Fireblade RRY without a steering damper was especially "interesting" to ride there). I watched local pros wheelying over those crests going full throttle on the exit and couldn't understand what they were doing differently. Wheelying over the crest will sometimes make the bike more stable, since you don't get disturbances into the bike from the front wheel. "It's only a matter of balls" - erh, right. I was unable to apply the throttle correctly - however had I tried. And then it clicked in me. In a free transcript of CSS instruction: "what is the "correct" line through any given corner?" - "any line you can follow by correctly applying throttle rule No.1 at the same time". In anticipation of a coming scary corner I was turning in too early! What is the purpose of Throttle Control rule #1? - and given the elevation changes, would that require us to modify the roll-on of the throttle when going over a crest? I imagine this being more complicated if you have a LONG corner with any angle variations (crest, off camber) but then again - throttle rule No. 1 must especially hold true in these cases. Indeed for the long corners - actually, I'll start a separate topic for that in a moment. Kai Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vaidas Posted October 27, 2010 Report Share Posted October 27, 2010 What is the purpose of Throttle Control rule #1? - and given the elevation changes, would that require us to modify the roll-on of the throttle when going over a crest? I think I'm getting your point. If the purpose of TC rule#1 is maintaining a correct (and constant) weight distribution and if the undulations are altering it, throttle corrections would be required to compensate for that. Is that where it's going? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
troy0907 Posted October 27, 2010 Author Report Share Posted October 27, 2010 Well wheelie over the crest,, a fun idea to try. Maybe i set that my goal. But i havent seen anyone doing it there. Getting the bike up right over the crest is a very good point. I will adjust the line around it. I think a good throttle control will remain the lean angle you have set because you are actively steering the bike with its rear wheel. My 2 cents Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
acebobby Posted October 29, 2010 Report Share Posted October 29, 2010 Good topic this, and I think we all hit this problem sometimes, a couple of things I'd like to add though! You mention more than once that you have seen alot of riders highside at this corner, is this creating a psychological barrier for you? Do you know what they did wrong to cause the crash? I only ask this as I saw someone highside right in front of me on the Nurburgring and for some reason thought there must be something wrong with that corner and tip-toed round it the rest of the day! I dont kow the turn but Another point I'd like to put across is, have you actually tried applying TC rule #1 at this corner? You back off to search for traction, but have you ever actually lost traction here? Has it crossed your mind that it might be ok to have a little slide in this turn? Here's an approach I would suggest, the next time you approach this turn use your usual RPs and take the line you normally would. begin by entering a bit slower than you have been and focus on TC rule #1, (rememember to relax on the bars), gradually increase your entry speed and use a good consistent roll on, if you get to a point where you are comfortable with the amount of lean angle you are using, hold your entry speed and then gradually increase the amount you roll on the throttle. by riding like this you are in complete control and may even be surprised just how much traction you have, if you get to the point where you can get a little slide on the crest, then the corner is yours, you will no longer fear it and may even try for a bigger slide! Remember, relaxed on the bars, TC rule #1 always, Do not chop the throttle! Hay this is only my mear opinion, I am not a coach or anything, just another member on a riding forum, so take it easy and find what works best for you! Bobby Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
troy0907 Posted October 29, 2010 Author Report Share Posted October 29, 2010 I think most of them highside because sliding the rear tire. Here is one of the video of it. It is true that it is mental issue. I need to take some more risk and consistently apply the throttle rule. I remember somewhere in the book there is a point mentioning you dont chop the throttle, but keep in constant. This turn is very important as it lead to a straight.. lots of time there too. I am a newbie, so much to learn.! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
acebobby Posted October 29, 2010 Report Share Posted October 29, 2010 I think most of them highside because sliding the rear tire. Here is one of the video of it. It is true that it is mental issue. I need to take some more risk and consistently apply the throttle rule. I remember somewhere in the book there is a point mentioning you dont chop the throttle, but keep in constant. This turn is very important as it lead to a straight.. lots of time there too. I am a newbie, so much to learn.! Man that video is brutal, was there any need to keep th cam on him as he just lay there! Anyway its off cambers and crests etc that make race tracks quite a challenge so we have to learn to deal with them and find the best way round them, your fear comes from other peoples crashes and as I said before I can personally relate to that feeling, the advantage you have is that you haven't crashed at that turn, you also dont know the condition of the bike, how warm the tyres were etc of the guy in the vid! What do you think the guy in the vid did wrong? I think had he obeyed TC rule #1 he would either have went off the low side or made a very cool slidebike vid instead of a highside vid! You mention that you think you have to take more risk, I disagree with that, its not about risking or being brave, its about learning the physics of how a bike handles and applying that knowledge! I have been track riding a few years now and still consider my self a newby, and one thing for sure is you never stop learning! Also even if that turn does lead onto the straight, why does that make it worthy of more risk than any other turn? P.S. There's also a part in the book that tells you to repeat TC rule #1 to yourself 2000 times, you should try it, I found that 437 times did fine though lol Bobby Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
harnois Posted October 29, 2010 Report Share Posted October 29, 2010 My local tack is Virginia International Raceway. North Course turn 7 is a right-hander with a harsh dip in the middle followed by an off-camber rise in the 2nd half. I have friends who have high-sided there. I've watched one of my friends almost high-side there twice while I was following him. Only a couple of times, in all the 50 or 60 track days I've done there, I had this cool sensation of both front and rear tires drifting equally as I went over that rise. Then I probably got chicken and slowed down and haven't felt it since! I think your idea of keeping the throttle constant as you go over the rise is a good one. It is my natural tendency to flatten out the throttle roll-on in that scenario. It works well for me and I'm not loosing ground on anyone there. Obviously don't chop it off, just slow down the roll-on rate or hold it so you maintain speed rather than speed up. The idea is to equalize the traction demand and load between the front and rear tires, so that if you do slide, everything will stay in line and smooth. If you are on the throttle too much, the rear end will slide, and when the rise ends and the traction level suddenly increases, things could get jerky. If you are off the throttle, the front end is loaded and will be the first to slide. Somewhere in between is the sweet spot. I think the idea of adjusting the line to be straighter is also good. In VIR turn 7 the dip preceding the rise provides a huge amount of traction, which we use to cut hard and straighten out the exit. I say "cut hard," but it's actually something that happens naturally and smoothly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
troy0907 Posted October 30, 2010 Author Report Share Posted October 30, 2010 It is true that i lost a lot of speed by slightly rolling of the throttle. Because i ride a small bike (aprilia rs250), my corner speed is the most important part so i have to get it right. the line i am using now is ok i guess but need some small adjustment to find the most suitable line . I must overcome that mental issue and have more trust in the tires. hopefully i will be able come to the track on the 13/11 for a practice day . I will play around with it. Troy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ozfireblade Posted October 30, 2010 Report Share Posted October 30, 2010 It is true that i lost a lot of speed by slightly rolling of the throttle. Because i ride a small bike (aprilia rs250), my corner speed is the most important part so i have to get it right. the line i am using now is ok i guess but need some small adjustment to find the most suitable line . I must overcome that mental issue and have more trust in the tires. hopefully i will be able come to the track on the 13/11 for a practice day . I will play around with it. Troy Like I said before for the left turn at this track in particular, run out slightly wider, maintain the throttle and just before getting over that crest start to roll the throttle on. Be careful not to apex too early as this will make your exit difficult and you will have to back off the throttle as you will run very wide. If the bike is upright enough you can get on it hard coming down the hill and just running out to the white lines, usually where old mate had his highside. Obviously he panicked and chopped the throttle.....so dont chop the throttle. Remembering that this is the ONLY left hander on the track. N.ext ride day have a play with different lines see how you go and let us know Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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