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Chemical Mechanical Grip


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As I am pretty much a tyre novice this may be common knowledge. I was at the track and was having a discussion about tyres, as we do. Two guys had the pilot powers ct2 and I have my Dunlop Q's. I am getting the Q2's as I got a puncture from a building screw left on the track which went really flat really quick in to a very fast corner which left me and my butt doing the 1 cent - dinner plate pucker but thats for another post.

 

I found the Pilots ,straight of the track, to be really sticky/tacky whilst my Q's dont feel as sticky coming straight off the track or even with warmers on. He explained to me that the pilots rely on Chemical traction whilst some tyres will work from the mechanical process of heating up like the Q's.

 

Just wondering if this could be explained a little better or if its correct.

 

Thanks

 

Dylan

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As I am pretty much a tyre novice this may be common knowledge. I was at the track and was having a discussion about tyres, as we do. Two guys had the pilot powers ct2 and I have my Dunlop Q's. I am getting the Q2's as I got a puncture from a building screw left on the track which went really flat really quick in to a very fast corner which left me and my butt doing the 1 cent - dinner plate pucker but thats for another post.

 

I found the Pilots ,straight of the track, to be really sticky/tacky whilst my Q's dont feel as sticky coming straight off the track or even with warmers on. He explained to me that the pilots rely on Chemical traction whilst some tyres will work from the mechanical process of heating up like the Q's.

 

Just wondering if this could be explained a little better or if its correct.

 

Thanks

 

Dylan

 

 

Hi Dylan,

 

I want to make sure we don't have a difference in how the words are used...

 

Are you saying the pilot ct2's are grippy right away?

 

How is that different from the Qualifiers?

 

I just wasn't totally clear on what you are saying.

 

Best,

CF

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As I am pretty much a tyre novice this may be common knowledge. I was at the track and was having a discussion about tyres, as we do. Two guys had the pilot powers ct2 and I have my Dunlop Q's. I am getting the Q2's as I got a puncture from a building screw left on the track which went really flat really quick in to a very fast corner which left me and my butt doing the 1 cent - dinner plate pucker but thats for another post.

 

I found the Pilots ,straight of the track, to be really sticky/tacky whilst my Q's dont feel as sticky coming straight off the track or even with warmers on. He explained to me that the pilots rely on Chemical traction whilst some tyres will work from the mechanical process of heating up like the Q's.

 

Just wondering if this could be explained a little better or if its correct.

 

Thanks

 

Dylan

 

Dylan,

 

Let me ask a question before I give an answer:

 

When you say the tires felt sticky/tacky straight off the track, or don't feel as sticky coming off the straight off the track. are you saying you felt the tire with your hand/finger or some object? or are you saying the grip you felt while riding?

 

I am trying to isolate the tool used to describe the tire. your hand or your butt on the seat?

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Hi,

 

I used the back of my hand and finger tips, I havent personally ridden on the pilots just the Q's. A bloke at the track had the Pilot's. I understand that they are different compounds, even the Q to the Q2 (which is now on the rear replacing the old punctured Q) and from normal street riding I can feel a marked diffrence in the Q2, definately 'tackier' than the old Q when on the street. Just need some track time on the Q2 now.

 

Cheers

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Hi,

 

I used the back of my hand and finger tips, I havent personally ridden on the pilots just the Q's. A bloke at the track had the Pilot's. I understand that they are different compounds, even the Q to the Q2 (which is now on the rear replacing the old punctured Q) and from normal street riding I can feel a marked diffrence in the Q2, definately 'tackier' than the old Q when on the street. Just need some track time on the Q2 now.

 

Cheers

 

 

OK, so your used you hand to feel the tire.

 

The test for grip is on the track. Feeling the tire with you hand or poking it with a fingernail to determine how "Sticky" the tire, is not a reliable way to test the tire. The true test is how well it works on the track/street.

 

Your observation of the Q2 being better on the street than the Q, is a valid observation. your feeling of the performance of the tire goes in step with the majority of others that have tried it.

 

IF one tire comes off the track and "Feels" to the hand stickier than another tire, that is not a guarantee or an indicator of how well it works on the track. The tire is a package of COMPOUND and CONSTRUCTION. How well they work together determines the performance level of the tire.

 

Some tires are very soft compound, and thus they may "Feel" sticky, but in fact they may not give as good a grip on the racetrack. SOFT does not equal GRIP. If it was true, then we would only make SOFT tires. Or we would replace the names SOFT, MED and HARD, with GRIP, LESS GRIP, EVEN LESS GRIP.

 

Trust what YOU feel on the track. That is the most important factor, what YOU feel. when I speak with riders about their tires, their statement of how the tire felt to them is the most important factor. There is no gauge or gadget that can replace the feedback.

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Some tires are very soft compound, and thus they may "Feel" sticky, but in fact they may not give as good a grip on the racetrack. SOFT does not equal GRIP. If it was true, then we would only make SOFT tires. Or we would replace the names SOFT, MED and HARD, with GRIP, LESS GRIP, EVEN LESS GRIP.

OK Steve; help us understand the distinctions if you will.

 

On TV we are typically told the compounds of the front and rear tires different riders have selected but what are the factors that lead them to make their selections? I think I understand that a harder tire, especially the rear will last longer and provide grip later on at the expense of traction in the earlier laps but I'm not sure. Also, what would lead a rider or his crew chief to say soft v. medium v. hard? Does a rider ever choose a hard compound for a sprint race and is there a circumstance where they would choose a soft compound for an endurance race? Can you elaborate a bit here?

 

TIA;

 

Rainman

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Some tires are very soft compound, and thus they may "Feel" sticky, but in fact they may not give as good a grip on the racetrack. SOFT does not equal GRIP. If it was true, then we would only make SOFT tires. Or we would replace the names SOFT, MED and HARD, with GRIP, LESS GRIP, EVEN LESS GRIP.

OK Steve; help us understand the distinctions if you will.

 

On TV we are typically told the compounds of the front and rear tires different riders have selected but what are the factors that lead them to make their selections? I think I understand that a harder tire, especially the rear will last longer and provide grip later on at the expense of traction in the earlier laps but I'm not sure. Also, what would lead a rider or his crew chief to say soft v. medium v. hard? Does a rider ever choose a hard compound for a sprint race and is there a circumstance where they would choose a soft compound for an endurance race? Can you elaborate a bit here?

 

TIA;

 

Rainman

 

 

RainMan,

 

Great question!

 

Picking Compounds:

 

First off, its not possible to put everything into a small tight neat box and make solid rules like "hotter weather = harder tire" or " Smooth track = soft tire". If this was all true my job would be super easy.

 

Tracks differ from one another. Track conditions can change from day to day or season to season. The tire performance and durability may also change as lap times change.

 

At the top levels of racing, the words soft, med and hard are really just names. If you changed the names to tire A, B or C, the drill would still be the same. So taking a real world example: the rider tries tire B, then tire A, then tire C, giving feedback after each. The order does not matter for the purpose of this example. The riders feedback is most important here. Depending on the feedback, level of grip, consistency (did/did not drop off in performance), and a review of lap times, the team (rider and crew, but mostly the rider) would decide on which compound to select. This may seem simple, and it is a basic format.

 

IF someone then said "but the track is rough, we need to go with a harder tire", would you make a switch if the durability of the chosen tire right in front of you looked good and the rider reported no issue with durability and his lap times were better? or if someone said" we need better lap times and the track is smooth, lets use a soft", would you switch if the tire you chose just ran the best lap time and the rider liked it the best?

 

This procedure gets less important the slower the rider goes. For a track day rider going 15 seconds off the winning pace, his feedback for grip is invalid. At those lap times one cannot determine the level of grip, thus the feedback is not as usable.

 

When factory riders, setting track records, can only notice about 0.5 seconds difference from one compound to the next, there is no way a rider going 5 seconds slower can tell the difference from one compound to the next.

 

After we look at this we also have to note that harder tires do tend to last longer, yes this is true. but in a race situation (like you see on TV) the tires only need to last that race. Choices for track day riders would be based on other factors than the procedure above.

 

Also softer tires sometimes will tear in colder conditions, so a harder tire in colder conditions might be a better choice for track days or even racing depending on the conditions and the compound. This may seem backwards from logical thinking, harder tires when cold, but it is workable.

 

The main point here is there are no hard rules for compounds. Its whichever compound works. Track day riders can usually use any compound. The faster you go, the more the compound can make a difference.

 

Asses the level of rider you are and make a tire choice based on that level. don't assume that Ben Spies tire choice will work well for you at your lap times or track conditions. It may or may not.

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Steve;

 

Speaking only for myself - this is an awesome response and the kind of real world information that is only available from someone who is on the inside at this level of racing. I am still trying to get to where I am a minute 15 seconds off a race pace so my tire selection will remain 209GP-A's for the track and Q-2's for the street but some of the more talented Forum regulars will appreciate your post on a deeper level I'm sure.

 

Thanks Steve;

 

Rain

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Very interesting topic cool.gif

 

What I wonder is why two riders can find things so very differently. For instance, how can a rider that's 15 seconds off pace still fall off from running out of grip even if he's going slower and leaning less than the fast rider on the same bike and tyres?

 

For me, the most fascinating thing about tyres is that what works for one can be miserable for another. Since I've done most of my riding on old bikes predating radials, it is only natural that I have the most experience with bias ply tyres. In that regard, it seems like the Bridgerock BT45s should be the duck's dick. Testers say they're almost as good as radials. Personally, I cannot find much to like; numb and harsh is how I would describe them, which is opposite of what I've read. I can name a whole range of tyres I find to be way superior to those, ranging from Dunlops to Pirellis and several brands in between.

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Very interesting topic cool.gif

 

What I wonder is why two riders can find things so very differently. For instance, how can a rider that's 15 seconds off pace still fall off from running out of grip even if he's going slower and leaning less than the fast rider on the same bike and tyres?

 

 

 

 

With 1 rider going 15 seconds slower, tires and the bike being equal, the variable would be the RIDER.

 

Its not the tire, not the bike, its the rider and his level of experience. I would highly question the slower riders interpretation of how he fell. If he claimed it was from grip, yet another rider is going 15 seconds faster and he did not fall, then it can't be from lack of grip, because the faster rider just proved there was plenty of grip. There are other factors in play that the rider cannot observe, but is attributing the problem to "Grip".

 

maybe the tires were cold

maybe he holds the handlebars to tight

maybe he makes many steering changes mid corner

maybe he chopped the throttle

maybe he quickly opened the throttle

maybe

maybe

maybe

 

The rider was not able to determine what really happened, so he attributed the problem to "Grip". If he continues on this path he will always have the wrong reason he fell. He will always think it was becasue of the tires, when if fact he had some other riding issue. Many tire issues are really not issues, just a mis-observation of what is happening.

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Cobie,

 

Thankyou for bringing Steve onboard and Steve thanks for becoming part of the Forum, the ease in which you pick out the answers (even from my jibberish) is awesome. Your answers are detailed, to the point and easy to understand, I'm looking forward to learning more.

 

Thanks Guys

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With 1 rider going 15 seconds slower, tires and the bike being equal, the variable would be the RIDER.

 

Its not the tire, not the bike, its the rider and his level of experience. I would highly question the slower riders interpretation of how he fell. If he claimed it was from grip, yet another rider is going 15 seconds faster and he did not fall, then it can't be from lack of grip, because the faster rider just proved there was plenty of grip. There are other factors in play that the rider cannot observe, but is attributing the problem to "Grip".

 

maybe the tires were cold

maybe he holds the handlebars to tight

maybe he makes many steering changes mid corner

maybe he chopped the throttle

maybe he quickly opened the throttle

maybe

maybe

maybe

 

The rider was not able to determine what really happened, so he attributed the problem to "Grip". If he continues on this path he will always have the wrong reason he fell. He will always think it was becasue of the tires, when if fact he had some other riding issue. Many tire issues are really not issues, just a mis-observation of what is happening.

 

Yes, I knew it had to be the rider, but thanks for pointing out all the possible screw-ups! I guess we who cannot ride much tend to think mostly in terms of the amount of lean used and not all the ways you can upset the bike and hence affect grip.

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  • 3 weeks later...

With 1 rider going 15 seconds slower, tires and the bike being equal, the variable would be the RIDER.

 

Its not the tire, not the bike, its the rider and his level of experience. I would highly question the slower riders interpretation of how he fell. If he claimed it was from grip, yet another rider is going 15 seconds faster and he did not fall, then it can't be from lack of grip, because the faster rider just proved there was plenty of grip. There are other factors in play that the rider cannot observe, but is attributing the problem to "Grip".

 

maybe the tires were cold

maybe he holds the handlebars to tight

maybe he makes many steering changes mid corner

maybe he chopped the throttle

maybe he quickly opened the throttle

maybe

maybe

maybe

 

Hey Guys,

 

First I wanted to say you guys have the beginings of a great site here. Good luck with it.

One thing I see that wasn't addressed here is suspension set up.

I just purchased a new/left over 07 Aprilia RSV 1000 Factory. Coming from a BMW K1200R. I've used Pilot Power CT2 since they came out, Pilot Power's before that. The Ape comes with Pirelli's (not sure which ones). I've been trying to set up the suspension but with the cold temp's it's hard to get anything zeroed in. My problem is I can't tell if it's the tires or the suspension, but I can't feel comfortable on this bike. My thought is to get rid of these tires, and put on tire's that I'm used to and see if I can set up the suspension from there. Does that sound like a good idea, or an I just wasting money, and I should set it up with the tires that came stock? There are a lot of diffentances between the two bikes also. Push button suspension, shaft drive, gearing, verses Ohlins, chain drive, 150 pounds lighter, 40 less hp... Which is a good thing until I get it set up. Any advise??? Oh, I ride on the street mostly. But do push the envolope on back roads, and can, and do drag things at will on the BMW. But the Ape's front seems to want to tuck in when I try to lay it down a little lower not close to touching down..

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With 1 rider going 15 seconds slower, tires and the bike being equal, the variable would be the RIDER.

 

Its not the tire, not the bike, its the rider and his level of experience. I would highly question the slower riders interpretation of how he fell. If he claimed it was from grip, yet another rider is going 15 seconds faster and he did not fall, then it can't be from lack of grip, because the faster rider just proved there was plenty of grip. There are other factors in play that the rider cannot observe, but is attributing the problem to "Grip".

 

maybe the tires were cold

maybe he holds the handlebars to tight

maybe he makes many steering changes mid corner

maybe he chopped the throttle

maybe he quickly opened the throttle

maybe

maybe

maybe

 

 

 

Hey Guys,

 

First I wanted to say you guys have the beginings of a great site here. Good luck with it.

One thing I see that wasn't addressed here is suspension set up.

I just purchased a new/left over 07 Aprilia RSV 1000 Factory. Coming from a BMW K1200R. I've used Pilot Power CT2 since they came out, Pilot Power's before that. The Ape comes with Pirelli's (not sure which ones). I've been trying to set up the suspension but with the cold temp's it's hard to get anything zeroed in. My problem is I can't tell if it's the tires or the suspension, but I can't feel comfortable on this bike. My thought is to get rid of these tires, and put on tire's that I'm used to and see if I can set up the suspension from there. Does that sound like a good idea, or an I just wasting money, and I should set it up with the tires that came stock? There are a lot of diffentances between the two bikes also. Push button suspension, shaft drive, gearing, verses Ohlins, chain drive, 150 pounds lighter, 40 less hp... Which is a good thing until I get it set up. Any advise??? Oh, I ride on the street mostly. But do push the envolope on back roads, and can, and do drag things at will on the BMW. But the Ape's front seems to want to tuck in when I try to lay it down a little lower not close to touching down..

 

It was addressed. :) its under the "Maybe, maybe, maybe" section. I was pointing out there are many things going on other than the tires, one of those is certainly the suspension.

 

As for your street bike. don't get to far off into the deep end trying to setup the suspension for a street bike, without first finding a good tire. if you are wanting more performance, the first thing you need to do is wear out the original tires and get new higher performance tires. That should solve your problem.

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With 1 rider going 15 seconds slower, tires and the bike being equal, the variable would be the RIDER.

 

Its not the tire, not the bike, its the rider and his level of experience. I would highly question the slower riders interpretation of how he fell. If he claimed it was from grip, yet another rider is going 15 seconds faster and he did not fall, then it can't be from lack of grip, because the faster rider just proved there was plenty of grip. There are other factors in play that the rider cannot observe, but is attributing the problem to "Grip".

 

maybe the tires were cold

maybe he holds the handlebars to tight

maybe he makes many steering changes mid corner

maybe he chopped the throttle

maybe he quickly opened the throttle

maybe

maybe

maybe

 

 

 

Hey Guys,

 

First I wanted to say you guys have the beginings of a great site here. Good luck with it.

One thing I see that wasn't addressed here is suspension set up.

I just purchased a new/left over 07 Aprilia RSV 1000 Factory. Coming from a BMW K1200R. I've used Pilot Power CT2 since they came out, Pilot Power's before that. The Ape comes with Pirelli's (not sure which ones). I've been trying to set up the suspension but with the cold temp's it's hard to get anything zeroed in. My problem is I can't tell if it's the tires or the suspension, but I can't feel comfortable on this bike. My thought is to get rid of these tires, and put on tire's that I'm used to and see if I can set up the suspension from there. Does that sound like a good idea, or an I just wasting money, and I should set it up with the tires that came stock? There are a lot of diffentances between the two bikes also. Push button suspension, shaft drive, gearing, verses Ohlins, chain drive, 150 pounds lighter, 40 less hp... Which is a good thing until I get it set up. Any advise??? Oh, I ride on the street mostly. But do push the envolope on back roads, and can, and do drag things at will on the BMW. But the Ape's front seems to want to tuck in when I try to lay it down a little lower not close to touching down..

 

It was addressed. smile.gif its under the "Maybe, maybe, maybe" section. I was pointing out there are many things going on other than the tires, one of those is certainly the suspension.

 

As for your street bike. don't get to far off into the deep end trying to setup the suspension for a street bike, without first finding a good tire. if you are wanting more performance, the first thing you need to do is wear out the original tires and get new higher performance tires. That should solve your problem.

 

Thanks for the reply. I will get some new tires and go from there...)

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(snipped for brevity)

 

For a track day rider going 15 seconds off the winning pace, his feedback for grip is invalid. At those lap times one cannot determine the level of grip, thus the feedback is not as usable.

 

When factory riders, setting track records, can only notice about 0.5 seconds difference from one compound to the next, there is no way a rider going 5 seconds slower can tell the difference from one compound to the next.

 

After we look at this we also have to note that harder tires do tend to last longer, yes this is true. but in a race situation (like you see on TV) the tires only need to last that race. Choices for track day riders would be based on other factors than the procedure above.

 

Also softer tires sometimes will tear in colder conditions, so a harder tire in colder conditions might be a better choice for track days or even racing depending on the conditions and the compound. This may seem backwards from logical thinking, harder tires when cold, but it is workable.

 

The main point here is there are no hard rules for compounds. Its whichever compound works. Track day riders can usually use any compound. The faster you go, the more the compound can make a difference.

 

Two questions:

 

For the track day rider, going at the infamous 15 seconds off the winning pace, you say his feedback for grip is invalid. Do you mean that it's overall invalid, or just invalid as a reference for the gals and guys on the winning pace? - Surely the feedback or sensation that the rider gets is important to the rider her/him-self?

 

Secondly, since the track day rider can usually use any compound, would it not make sense for said hapless track day rider to buy rear tires in the "Endurance" compound from a longevity/cost point of view?

 

It's really hard to know "whichever compound works" if you haven't tried them, and last time I checked, the truck with Dunlop sponsored tires haven't stopped at my doorstep yet :(

 

Thanks, Kai

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Two questions:

 

For the track day rider, going at the infamous 15 seconds off the winning pace, you say his feedback for grip is invalid. Do you mean that it's overall invalid, or just invalid as a reference for the gals and guys on the winning pace? - Surely the feedback or sensation that the rider gets is important to the rider her/him-self?

 

Secondly, since the track day rider can usually use any compound, would it not make sense for said hapless track day rider to buy rear tires in the "Endurance" compound from a longevity/cost point of view?

 

It's really hard to know "whichever compound works" if you haven't tried them, and last time I checked, the truck with Dunlop sponsored tires haven't stopped at my doorstep yet :(

 

Thanks, Kai

 

Kai, I'm going to chime in on one point of this, regarding riding technique. This relates to both suspension and tires too. The best bike in the world, with the best tires in the world, can be completely overriden by poor technique. Using/abusing the control inputs of throttle, handlebars and brakes, one can get a bike way below it's correct threshold to be completely unstable.

 

Here is an example I know of: medium fast track day rider, going through turn 3 at Barber (has some bumps), doing 90-100. Mishandles the bike controls (bars in this case) so badly that the bike begins to tank slap, viscous, hard, nasty. Our hero thinks, "gonna die, gotta get off this thing" and lets go of the bars, going to bail off the back of the bike. The INSTANT he let go of the bars, the bike recovered fully. He put his hands back on the bars and kept it on the track.

 

Point here is this: technique can overwhelm machinery, suspension and tires, WAY below the correct limit with correct technique.

 

Steve can chime in on one thing a tire point: a softer tire, might that not work as well for a slower rider if it gets to temp easier, and the rider gets more grip, less movement? Could that be better than a harder/endurance type tire?

 

CF

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Kai, I'm going to chime in on one point of this, regarding riding technique.

I wasn't aware that I was asking a riding technique question :huh: ... ;)

 

But the soft tire question brings back an observation I had this summer with a Supercorsa SC0 rear (they don't come softer than that): I noticed that if I did not soften up the compression damping on the rear, I would be chewing up the soft tire pretty quickly. Sure enough, when reducing the compression damping, the tire started to heal up pretty quickly - although the rear would oscillate quite a bit when accelerating hard out of corners (with elevation/camber changes thrown in).

 

I guess the reason is that the "hardness" of the tire must be followed by a similar suspension setup (ie soft-soft or hard-hard), in order to avoid forcing the tire or suspension, to be overloaded because the other part is too "hard".

 

Steve - any comments here?

 

 

Kai

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Kai, I'm going to chime in on one point of this, regarding riding technique.

I wasn't aware that I was asking a riding technique question :huh: ... ;)

 

But the soft tire question brings back an observation I had this summer with a Supercorsa SC0 rear (they don't come softer than that): I noticed that if I did not soften up the compression damping on the rear, I would be chewing up the soft tire pretty quickly. Sure enough, when reducing the compression damping, the tire started to heal up pretty quickly - although the rear would oscillate quite a bit when accelerating hard out of corners (with elevation/camber changes thrown in).

 

I guess the reason is that the "hardness" of the tire must be followed by a similar suspension setup (ie soft-soft or hard-hard), in order to avoid forcing the tire or suspension, to be overloaded because the other part is too "hard".

 

Steve - any comments here?

 

 

Kai

 

I would not say that it's a solid fact "soft compound= softer suspension". Sometimes this can be the case, and I wish it was this easy. Its more on a tire by tire basis and track by track. one rider may like it another rider may not. Keeping in mind this only becomes an issue when you are aproching track record times. slower trackday riders need not be concerned at this level.

 

Honestly these super technical issues should be discussed with your tire guy at the track directly. Addressing your exact bike, tire, setup situation. The faster you go, the more you may have to fine tune your bike, tires and setup. The changes you make may not work for another rider because their situation is different. Thus, on this forum, I try to give more general information that should work in all cases, and move away from the specific issues. I don't want some trackday rider to read a post and take drastic action that is unnecessary.

 

You seem to be a faster rider. I would discuss any specific issues with your local track-side tire rep, as he is better equipped with the local track info and his product's specifications to help your specific issues.

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You seem to be a faster rider. I would discuss any specific issues with your local track-side tire rep, as he is better equipped with the local track info and his product's specifications to help your specific issues.

I appreciate your belief in my abilities, but I wouldn't even qualify at the tail end of a rookie race here in Denmark. I'm just an engineer and a trackday junkie at the same time (dangerous).

 

As for my local track-side tire rep, there is none (can't even find the name of the distributor on www.dunlop.dk!). I've certainly never seen one at the track days in Denmark/Sweden (makes sense, I'd say), and I don't recall seeing any at the Cup races last year either.

 

 

Kai

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