rootkit007 Posted August 25, 2012 Report Share Posted August 25, 2012 Watched TOTW2 yesterday, couldnt help it but try the quick flick today on local hairpins. What I did was try to quickly lean the bike using knee pressure on the tank - does that sound right? Lean was totally effortless, it went down like a dream and I found that I just HAVE to apply the throttle in order to make it through the turn - again, I wonder if I was late with throttle? or was I doing it wrong? In a nutshell, is QT something like: 1. Lean the bike over fast without your weight on the handlebars 2. Provide steering input at the same time (honestly, I dont how I steer. I just know I lean over and bike does it. I never conciously apply steering input to the handlebars) 3. Give it throttle 4. Take and exit the corner while steadily rolling on the throttle (this actually provided me some major scare/adrenaline rush for me in 180 degree turn) On a plus side I made it though the hairpins faster than ever before, and got a major rush of adrenaline out of few consecutive quick flicks Also I figured its about time I get tank grips. Thanks for any advice! Peter Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
faffi Posted August 25, 2012 Report Share Posted August 25, 2012 I am no expert, but IMO you cannot QT without pushing noticeably on the inside handlebar end. A quick, firm shove, almost a hit, then relax. At least that's how I do it. If I relax, the bike will carry itself through the corner, no further inputs required other than a bit of throttle to maintain speed. But you can get on the throttle pretty hard as well without having to fight anything, giving you a much quicker exit. However, the way I understand it, QT is just that; change direction rapidly going into a corner. What follows is irrelevant to QT. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mckeann Posted August 25, 2012 Report Share Posted August 25, 2012 It sounds like you are totally mixed up on what your trying to achieve here. You dont steer the bike with your knees, your knees lock on to the tank to allow you to exert more pressure on the bars. You dont lean the bike over and steer at the same time, the steering input causes the bike to lean over in the first place. If your getting scares and rushes out of corners its because your line is wrong in relation to your throttle input. The aim should be to make everything smooth and calm, not agressive and scary. I sugest you watch the dvd again, and then ask more questions on here Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rootkit007 Posted August 25, 2012 Author Report Share Posted August 25, 2012 OK, I guess I have a LOT to learn. Quite a humbling experience I confess I still do not fully understand the counter-steering theory, and I dont how bike actually does it when I lean it into a corner. I just know it does! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tmckeen Posted August 25, 2012 Report Share Posted August 25, 2012 I think a good understanding of what and how counter steering works is required before you can really apply the quick turn technique, and the best explanation of it I've seen here is the baseball bat example, A motorcycle is a Inverted Pendulum, aka a upside down grandfather clock, now if you were to balance a baseball bat on the palm of your hand it too would become a inverted pendulum just like a motorcycle, Now to make the bat, or you motorcycle lean over in one direction or the other the only way to achieve that is to move the base of the pendulum, shift your palm a few inches to the right, the bat falls over to the left or vice-verse. This is exactly how a motorcycle actually steers, you have been doing it all along inadvertently, but knowing what is actually causing the bike to turn gives you much much better control over accidentally turning the bike. If you want to turn to the left, you first turn the front wheel to the right, this causes the front of the bike, or the base of the pendulum to drive out to the right, which causes the bike to lean over to the left, once you have achieved the desired amount of lean angle you release the handlebars and apply enough throttle to achieve the desired weight ratio on the tires and the bike will continue on the set line until you stand it up. Now quick turn is simply applying that initial steering input as quickly and forcefully as can be allowed by the conditions. Tyler Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gr8Dane Posted August 25, 2012 Report Share Posted August 25, 2012 Many riders don't have a conscious understanding of the effects of counter-steering. They do it anyway, because that's what makes the bike change direction. When I encounter a rider who says they do not counter steer, I have a little experiment that's quite the eyeopener: Try riding your bike with your left hand on the throttle....within 5 seconds you will figure out that you have always counter steered! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rootkit007 Posted August 26, 2012 Author Report Share Posted August 26, 2012 OK, it getting clearer now! Thanks! One thing I still do not fully understand is what provides the actual cornering force? Is it the lean, or position of the front wheel? If its the lean, why cant just we forcefully flip the bike into a lean - it seems like countersteering just provides the forces for initial lean??? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
khp Posted August 26, 2012 Report Share Posted August 26, 2012 OK, it getting clearer now! Thanks! One thing I still do not fully understand is what provides the actual cornering force? Is it the lean, or position of the front wheel? If its the lean, why cant just we forcefully flip the bike into a lean - it seems like countersteering just provides the forces for initial lean??? What do you mean by "the actual cornering force"? if you're thinking about the forces you feel when going through a turn, it's the so-called centripetal force you are feeling. The reason that we cannot flip the bike into a lean is due to the kinetic and inertial energies of the bike/rider. Most important is the rotational energy of the front wheel - also known as the gyroscopic force. Find a bicycle front wheel and hold it by the axle in straight arms and have a friend spin the wheel for you. Now push forward with your right arm and watch what happens. The exact same happens on the motorcycle, only the forces involved are much higher. In summary; the higher speed you have, the harder it is to make the bike turn. HTH, Kai Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gr8Dane Posted August 26, 2012 Report Share Posted August 26, 2012 And interestingly, if you equip your bike with lighter wheels, such as the BST carbon fiber wheels, it will flick faster due to less gyroscopic force int the wheels. A really abrupt countersteer input will flick the bike much quicker. I really wrestle with the bars on the big heavy K 1200, especially when standing it up on corner exit as I get on the gas. It's loads of fun to man-handle that thing! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rootkit007 Posted August 26, 2012 Author Report Share Posted August 26, 2012 I did some more reading on the subject. Being a geek I am this is becoming quite interesting - I have been riding bicycles for 30 years, and never gave any thought to steering, just did it. The best explanation I have found so far is that at higher speeds gyroscopic forces are just way to strong for you to muscle the bike into a lean and steer at the same time. Countersteering provides forceful input that makes the bike lean, and then you complete the turn using 'normal' steering. This is why I thought I can get away with muscling the bike into a lean - that may work at slower speeds but will not do when you go faster. This also explains why it would be easier to flip the bike with lighter wheels - gyro forces are considerably less then. OK, time for some practice runs now! Peter Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fritzdacat Posted August 27, 2012 Report Share Posted August 27, 2012 It's important to know about the steering impuls because in an emergency situation you can react more directly. Trying to move your weight from one side to the other and indirectly causing a steering impuls may be too slow to avoid (for example) a collision with an oncoming vehicle in a turn, sometimes you may even have to shove the handlebar really hard. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnnyrod Posted August 29, 2012 Report Share Posted August 29, 2012 Lots of threads on here about countersteering, but in a nutshell... there are three main parts to what happens: 1. bike upright (straight line), turn bars the wrong way (countersteer), the bike falls towards the bend 2. stop countersteering, front end turns slightly into the bend by itself (geometry, tyre profile etc.), lean angle stabilises 3. bike goes round the corner. The force of gravity that would normally make it fall over is now being used to change your direction. Leaning makes you go round corners. Countersteering changes the lean angle (up or down) and should be quick and positive. Gyro forces make it all harder work at higher speed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mugget Posted September 1, 2012 Report Share Posted September 1, 2012 Hi rootkit007, welcome to the forum! Lean was totally effortless, it went down like a dream and I found that I just HAVE to apply the throttle in order to make it through the turn - again, I wonder if I was late with throttle? Your comment about having to apply throttle to complete the turn caught my attention. I know that my riding change a lot when I better understood the relation between throttle and cornering... it's most definitely something worth taking the time to learn about and improve in! First of all a question to you: what do you think will happen if you did not apply throttle at all during a turn? Let's say your bike just died and you had to coast through the turn? Countersteering provides forceful input that makes the bike lean, and then you complete the turn using 'normal' steering. This is why I thought I can get away with muscling the bike into a lean - that may work at slower speeds but will not do when you go faster. This also explains why it would be easier to flip the bike with lighter wheels - gyro forces are considerably less then. Sounds like you're getting the hang of that! And yep, you can do strange things at slower speeds. For example if you're riding a bicycle you can be riding in a straight line and tilt the bike to one side so that it's leaning while you ride in a straight line. But that doesn't mean it applies to motorcycles. I think that is one thing that took me a while to understand when I started riding motorcycles... all of those years I spent on BMX and MTB just didn't seem to work on motorbikes! Just on the subject of "counter steering" and "normal steering"... Imagine that you've just tipped into a big sweeping left hand corner and you want to tighten your line so you move towards the inside of the turn. How will you accomplish this? Will you turn your front wheel to point to the inside of the turn by pushing on the right handlebar? Also consider that counter steering works just as well to stand the bike up quickly coming out of a turn. Is there really a difference between "counter steering" and "normal steering"? On the subject of lighter wheels being easier to turn the bike - that's absolutely right. But it's important to realise that your ability to quick turn is not mainly limited by the weight of your wheels! Here is a summary of quick turning that may be helpful: The force applied to the inside 'bar determines how quickly your bike will turn. The length of time that force is applied determines how far your bike will turn. (I have said "turn" instead of adding "lean" because that is really how a bike turns, you cannot turn without leaning. And so it follows that if you turn more, you will lean more.) Another interesting point is that the Australian Superbike series (and others I'm sure) only permit the use of OEM wheels. And yet they come within seconds of MotoGP lap times. I think that's a good example to show that not having lightweight wheels is not the real limiting factor for most people! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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