Front Washout

[JDHonda]

May I ask a question regarding a mishap I had this past month?? It has me duly concerned, and I seem to be missing something....

 

I was commuting home from work on 10/10, and made a right hand sweeping turn that is regular for me every day I'm on the bike [which is pretty much always], wind was high and temps lower but that's no excuse. I believe I was subtely trail-braking the corner, as my bike [2008 cbr 1000rr] needs a little throttle opening or it will abruptly "dive" , so I tend to use gas and brake together, but this particular day, something was really wrong.....front end started sliding very early, I didn't make ANY inputs,rather I just said to myself "huh??", and studied it, thinking it would just straighten up....but it didn't...it apparently crossed one of those heavy tape-type pedestrian stripes and slammed me to the ground. Tires are Q2, 32 front and rear, about 500 miles on them

 

My question is, if I had started rolling on,when it started sliding, and picking up the bike with authority, this wouldn't have happened. Am I wrong??

 

Bigger question is....3rd accident in 5 years...2 on road and 1 on track; is there a way of knowing if this pastime isn't for someone?? I mean, I don't give up easily, but how much more discouragement do I need?? Have taken many schools [5 [x] MSF, 3 [x] CLASS, 1 CSS], must not be able to retain much, I now think that not having taken Level 2 with the Slide Bike may have been a mistake.

 

A philosophical question too; if I go forward, is it more encouraging to repair my existing bike, keep it and put "experience" on it, or replace it and have a feeling of "starting over"??

 

Thanks for any input anyone might have

[ktk_ace]

OEM fork oil fades real fast, when was the last time you serviced your fork?

 

sounds like the front fork is in extreme disrepair or you are too heavy. the stock springs are only specced for 55-70KG riders fyi.

[fritzdacat]

No, you're not wrong, rolling on the gas is the right reaction.

[faffi]

I think that when you use the throttle together with slowing, you are pushing the front forward without driving it down much. In other words, you are asking for more friction without giving the front tyre the tool to deliver in the form of more weight load. To me, it sounds like a terrible idea to use both throttle and front brake at the same time. Using the rear brake together with throttle as sort of a traction control after you're done braking and getting back on the gas shouldn't introduce the same issues.

[Lnewqban]

Welcome to the site!

There is much to learn here.

 

My question is, if I had started rolling on,when it started sliding, and picking up the bike with authority, this wouldn't have happened. Am I wrong??

Preventing a front slide on the street is much easier than saving one.

 

That excessive dive may be due to worn springs or insufficient pre-load (but it may be not as excessive as you believe); servicing the suspension and replacing the old fork oil (if older than two years) will improve the re-bounce damping.

 

Simultaneous accelerating and braking is not a good technique, it just puts more load on the front tire's contact patch; how smoothly and gradually you come out of that cross-control situation has a great influence on the front tire's traction (sudden release of any or both would upset the suspension and the traction margin).

 

Read these articles by Keith Code:

 

http://forums.superbikeschool.com/index.php?showtopic=310

 

http://forums.superbikeschool.com/index.php?showtopic=540

 

If your front suspension is soft, you should do all your braking while moving in a straight line and not so hard that the suspension tops down; in emergency braking, that top down will be less important than keeping the steering straight.

Some trail braking is OK, if you prefer, but nothing dramatic.

 

Street riding needs a very different approach than track riding regarding keeping a safety margin and evaluating road, weather and traffic conditions at all times.

 

Leaning onto the direction of a strong wind lifts the bike and reduces traction in both tires.

 

Any steel or white paint means much less traction, especially if wet (even invisible condensation).

 

Less speed would have required less lean angle and wouldn't overloaded the front tire.

 

I would keep street-riding, but taming the gas a couple of notches down.

 

Bigger question is....3rd accident in 5 years...2 on road and 1 on track; is there a way of knowing if this pastime isn't for someone?? I mean, I don't give up easily, but how much more discouragement do I need?? Have taken many schools [5 [x] MSF, 3 [x] CLASS, 1 CSS], must not be able to retain much, I now think that not having taken Level 2 with the Slide Bike may have been a mistake.

Two road accidents in five years is not uncommon; where there is a will, there is a way.

Maybe your way is more education?

For street riding education, I highly recommend reading "Proficient Motorcycling" by David. L. Hough.

 

A philosophical question too; if I go forward, is it more encouraging to repair my existing bike, keep it and put "experience" on it, or replace it and have a feeling of "starting over"??

I would keep the old bike if in decent condition still (I have a sentimental attachment to my old bikes).

 

Best!

[JDHonda]

Thanks very much, everyone, for the replies, I definitely feel the same camaraderie that was a part of my Level 1 school I attended. It is very much appreciated, and to Lnewqban, special thanks for the links, I always enjoy Keith's articles; I subscribed to Motorcyclist magazine specifically for his column.

A couple of things I should have explained better; when I mentioned "dive", what I meant was this abrupt "off-throttle" pitch-forward feeling"...if you get to a point in your roll-off with this bike, its like someone switched off the ignition, so I try to find ways to avoid it. It's quite annoying, and I'm always trying to be smooth [Reg Pridmore's CLASS 3 x].One of only 2 things I don't like about the CBR; the other is a rather harsh suspension-the rear will "kick" over harsh bumps, but I've applied setup numbers given to another forum by Dave Moss, and it does seem much more relaxed, though it did reduce the pre-load a lot, and I'm 190lbs.

I would really like to blame the wind! Gusts that day to 30mph, and the lean was into them. Corner is off-camber, too. But I'm continually struck by the fact that this is a city corner, not a track corner; speeds here would be in the ~20mph range. Lee Parks said in his book that Freddie Spencer would slide the front on purpose, then add throttle in to power out of a very deep entry. And I want my skill to be there, not crashing.

Keith is absolutely right about the 14 Points, i was especially struck by 11- I had time....it didn't "just happen"....it "hovered" there until it just seemed to "jerk" away from me. But I know that prevention, or at least being set up to prevent, was the right tact here....if I had proper throttle control from the start, then Keith was right when he said "take control by doing nothing", except maintaining proper throttle control. I suspect the final SR was just a slight pull of the brake lever [i always rest 2 fingers on it]

In truth, I don't like street riding, didn't have a street bike for the last 2 years, had track-only GSXR 6, but I needed transportation [1 car, my wife has to take me to work, or the bus] so I thought the CBR would do both. The track is such a great environment, everyone focused on the task at hand, welcoming.....it's quiet even though its loud. Track crash was the result of hanging tight to a white number plate with my junk '99 zx9r...didn't stay close long...

Thanks again for the thoughtful input....I wrote a letter to CLASS too....Reggie has a lot to offer, if his methodologies do seem in contrast to CSS.....I told him that the few people I know personally that are motorcyclists pretty much reflect an average YouTube comment, replete with the sarcasm, off-color remarks, and criticism...the word "idiot" comes up a lot......thanks for not using it here. Blessings all.

[ktk_ace]

Thanks very much, everyone, for the replies, I definitely feel the same camaraderie that was a part of my Level 1 school I attended. It is very much appreciated, and to Lnewqban, special thanks for the links, I always enjoy Keith's articles; I subscribed to Motorcyclist magazine specifically for his column.

A couple of things I should have explained better; when I mentioned "dive", what I meant was this abrupt "off-throttle" pitch-forward feeling"...if you get to a point in your roll-off with this bike, its like someone switched off the ignition, so I try to find ways to avoid it. It's quite annoying, and I'm always trying to be smooth [Reg Pridmore's CLASS 3 x].One of only 2 things I don't like about the CBR; the other is a rather harsh suspension-the rear will "kick" over harsh bumps, but I've applied setup numbers given to another forum by Dave Moss, and it does seem much more relaxed, though it did reduce the pre-load a lot, and I'm 190lbs.

I would really like to blame the wind! Gusts that day to 30mph, and the lean was into them. Corner is off-camber, too. But I'm continually struck by the fact that this is a city corner, not a track corner; speeds here would be in the ~20mph range. Lee Parks said in his book that Freddie Spencer would slide the front on purpose, then add throttle in to power out of a very deep entry. And I want my skill to be there, not crashing.

Keith is absolutely right about the 14 Points, i was especially struck by 11- I had time....it didn't "just happen"....it "hovered" there until it just seemed to "jerk" away from me. But I know that prevention, or at least being set up to prevent, was the right tact here....if I had proper throttle control from the start, then Keith was right when he said "take control by doing nothing", except maintaining proper throttle control. I suspect the final SR was just a slight pull of the brake lever [i always rest 2 fingers on it]

In truth, I don't like street riding, didn't have a street bike for the last 2 years, had track-only GSXR 6, but I needed transportation [1 car, my wife has to take me to work, or the bus] so I thought the CBR would do both. The track is such a great environment, everyone focused on the task at hand, welcoming.....it's quiet even though its loud. Track crash was the result of hanging tight to a white number plate with my junk '99 zx9r...didn't stay close long...

Thanks again for the thoughtful input....I wrote a letter to CLASS too....Reggie has a lot to offer, if his methodologies do seem in contrast to CSS.....I told him that the few people I know personally that are motorcyclists pretty much reflect an average YouTube comment, replete with the sarcasm, off-color remarks, and criticism...the word "idiot" comes up a lot......thanks for not using it here. Blessings all.

 

190 pounds = 86KG

 

Riding skills are only going to help so much ( software solution ;eg still too little) when your suspension hardware is causing the problem (hardware bottleneck)

 

the weight transfer just outright overwhelms the springs; IMHO no amount of skills is going to help.

[aslcbr600]

I know what you mean about a harsh kick if the throttle isn't rolled off exactly smooth....my 675 is like that, the triples do not like anything other then the most gentle roll off possible. On my CBR600RR the roll off with the same output is much more relaxed, you really have to mess up throttle control to get that action. However the 675 is the complete opposite and of course the lower the gear you are in the worse it is too.

 

Remember this according to Keith, "bikes only do two things, change speed and turn. Riders do 7 different things" Along with evaluating your riding in a positive manner and not making yourself feel unable to "ride" also I would do as suggested and make sure everything is mechanically sound with the front suspension also. If you know your bike is as close to 100% as possible (no bike is perfect IMO) then you don't have to worry about all of the other factors, you know that the mistake was your input and go from there on evaluating how to fix it.

[bradvanhorn]

From all I have read about the CBR1000RR, and I've read a lot, it has no reputation for front end dive. In fact it often is praised for its confidence inspiring handling and stability. If you're having that much trouble then I suggest you get the forks refreshed and setup to your specs.

[bradvanhorn]

I know what you mean about a harsh kick if the throttle isn't rolled off exactly smooth....my 675 is like that, the triples do not like anything other then the most gentle roll off possible. On my CBR600RR the roll off with the same output is much more relaxed, you really have to mess up throttle control to get that action. However the 675 is the complete opposite and of course the lower the gear you are in the worse it is too.

 

Remember this according to Keith, "bikes only do two things, change speed and turn. Riders do 7 different things" Along with evaluating your riding in a positive manner and not making yourself feel unable to "ride" also I would do as suggested and make sure everything is mechanically sound with the front suspension also. If you know your bike is as close to 100% as possible (no bike is perfect IMO) then you don't have to worry about all of the other factors, you know that the mistake was your input and go from there on evaluating how to fix it.

I ride the 1050 triple (2012 Speed Triple) and I have no issue with roll offs whatsoever. The older Speed Triples had a reputation for heavily diving on the brakes but that was corrected in the 2011 redesign. I can't speak directly to the 675 triples but the few guys I know who track ride them never mentioned this as a problem in any way. Perhaps it is a suspension tuning problem?

[ktk_ace]

From all I have read about the CBR1000RR, and I've read a lot, it has no reputation for front end dive. In fact it often is praised for its confidence inspiring handling and stability. If you're having that much trouble then I suggest you get the forks refreshed and setup to your specs.

 

I'd concur but the rear shock would need a new harder spring too imho~

[aslcbr600]

I know what you mean about a harsh kick if the throttle isn't rolled off exactly smooth....my 675 is like that, the triples do not like anything other then the most gentle roll off possible. On my CBR600RR the roll off with the same output is much more relaxed, you really have to mess up throttle control to get that action. However the 675 is the complete opposite and of course the lower the gear you are in the worse it is too.

 

Remember this according to Keith, "bikes only do two things, change speed and turn. Riders do 7 different things" Along with evaluating your riding in a positive manner and not making yourself feel unable to "ride" also I would do as suggested and make sure everything is mechanically sound with the front suspension also. If you know your bike is as close to 100% as possible (no bike is perfect IMO) then you don't have to worry about all of the other factors, you know that the mistake was your input and go from there on evaluating how to fix it.

I ride the 1050 triple (2012 Speed Triple) and I have no issue with roll offs whatsoever. The older Speed Triples had a reputation for heavily diving on the brakes but that was corrected in the 2011 redesign. I can't speak directly to the 675 triples but the few guys I know who track ride them never mentioned this as a problem in any way. Perhaps it is a suspension tuning problem?

 

 

Or it could also be the quick turn throttle I forgot to mention that I am not 100% used to also lol.....

[bradvanhorn]

I know what you mean about a harsh kick if the throttle isn't rolled off exactly smooth....my 675 is like that, the triples do not like anything other then the most gentle roll off possible. On my CBR600RR the roll off with the same output is much more relaxed, you really have to mess up throttle control to get that action. However the 675 is the complete opposite and of course the lower the gear you are in the worse it is too.

 

Remember this according to Keith, "bikes only do two things, change speed and turn. Riders do 7 different things" Along with evaluating your riding in a positive manner and not making yourself feel unable to "ride" also I would do as suggested and make sure everything is mechanically sound with the front suspension also. If you know your bike is as close to 100% as possible (no bike is perfect IMO) then you don't have to worry about all of the other factors, you know that the mistake was your input and go from there on evaluating how to fix it.

I ride the 1050 triple (2012 Speed Triple) and I have no issue with roll offs whatsoever. The older Speed Triples had a reputation for heavily diving on the brakes but that was corrected in the 2011 redesign. I can't speak directly to the 675 triples but the few guys I know who track ride them never mentioned this as a problem in any way. Perhaps it is a suspension tuning problem?

 

 

Or it could also be the quick turn throttle I forgot to mention that I am not 100% used to also lol.....

Interesting. I'll have to see what the local 675 guys think about this problem.

[ktk_ace]

I know what you mean about a harsh kick if the throttle isn't rolled off exactly smooth....my 675 is like that, the triples do not like anything other then the most gentle roll off possible. On my CBR600RR the roll off with the same output is much more relaxed, you really have to mess up throttle control to get that action. However the 675 is the complete opposite and of course the lower the gear you are in the worse it is too.

 

Remember this according to Keith, "bikes only do two things, change speed and turn. Riders do 7 different things" Along with evaluating your riding in a positive manner and not making yourself feel unable to "ride" also I would do as suggested and make sure everything is mechanically sound with the front suspension also. If you know your bike is as close to 100% as possible (no bike is perfect IMO) then you don't have to worry about all of the other factors, you know that the mistake was your input and go from there on evaluating how to fix it.

I ride the 1050 triple (2012 Speed Triple) and I have no issue with roll offs whatsoever. The older Speed Triples had a reputation for heavily diving on the brakes but that was corrected in the 2011 redesign. I can't speak directly to the 675 triples but the few guys I know who track ride them never mentioned this as a problem in any way. Perhaps it is a suspension tuning problem?

 

 

Or it could also be the quick turn throttle I forgot to mention that I am not 100% used to also lol.....

Interesting. I'll have to see what the local 675 guys think about this problem.

 

Triumph gave the 2013 675R a slipper clutch btw:

 

http://blogs.motorcyclistonline.com/2013-triumph-dayona-675-and-675r-first-look-30317.html

 

To what extend the problem exist, i have no idea thou.

[aslcbr600]

I would love to have a 2013 675R, once the car is paid off I will be saving up for one!

[aslcbr600]

I know what you mean about a harsh kick if the throttle isn't rolled off exactly smooth....my 675 is like that, the triples do not like anything other then the most gentle roll off possible. On my CBR600RR the roll off with the same output is much more relaxed, you really have to mess up throttle control to get that action. However the 675 is the complete opposite and of course the lower the gear you are in the worse it is too.

 

Remember this according to Keith, "bikes only do two things, change speed and turn. Riders do 7 different things" Along with evaluating your riding in a positive manner and not making yourself feel unable to "ride" also I would do as suggested and make sure everything is mechanically sound with the front suspension also. If you know your bike is as close to 100% as possible (no bike is perfect IMO) then you don't have to worry about all of the other factors, you know that the mistake was your input and go from there on evaluating how to fix it.

I ride the 1050 triple (2012 Speed Triple) and I have no issue with roll offs whatsoever. The older Speed Triples had a reputation for heavily diving on the brakes but that was corrected in the 2011 redesign. I can't speak directly to the 675 triples but the few guys I know who track ride them never mentioned this as a problem in any way. Perhaps it is a suspension tuning problem?

 

 

Or it could also be the quick turn throttle I forgot to mention that I am not 100% used to also lol.....

Interesting. I'll have to see what the local 675 guys think about this problem.

 

 

Yea let me know, I know the suspension needs adjusting because the original rider was heavier then I am. I would like to know because my roll offs aren't quick or snappy they are smooth and even but just seems more touchy then my CBR600 was.

[mckeann]

No way should you be on gas and brake at the same time. That's why you crashed. The gas shifts weight off the front, which makes it easier to lock the front wheel. The ultimate extension I this would be to do a wheely with the front wheel stopped.

 

I have a 675 street triple, I'm 220 lbs but I don't get excessive dive. I don't really know what you mean by excessive dive anyway, the front should dip when you shut the throttle, it preloads the front tyre ready for you I brake hard on it.

 

Time to get you suspension checked out and unlearn some bad habits I think.

[JDHonda]

No way should you be on gas and brake at the same time. That's why you crashed. The gas shifts weight off the front, which makes it easier to lock the front wheel. The ultimate extension I this would be to do a wheely with the front wheel stopped.

 

I have a 675 street triple, I'm 220 lbs but I don't get excessive dive. I don't really know what you mean by excessive dive anyway, the front should dip when you shut the throttle, it preloads the front tyre ready for you I brake hard on it.

 

Time to get you suspension checked out and unlearn some bad habits I think.

 

Neil, thanks for the reply, I think I used the wrong decriptions; what I meant by "dive" is the fuel injection [i think] where if you're just going along, say a downshift to first, and you slow down to the point where you shut the throttle, it just kind of goes "bahhh", and pitches you forward, so I practice what Reg Pridmore calls "the Rocking Horse", where you make simultaneous, smooth throttle movement off while rolling on the brakes, and when off the brakes you roll on throttle, so there are points where you are doing both at the same time. Lee Parks teaches it too, said Freddie Spencer taught him that way. I'm probably doing it wrong, but when it goes right, it does really seem to settle things out. I'm sure you guys are right about the suspension, will definitely look into that, we actually have [1] great mechanic in our town, independent,too....that's harsh, we've actually got good dealerships, but this guy is terrific, wish I could give him a plug here.

My whole thing is, after having so much school, I really thought I just would have snapped to attention, gotten real light on everything, enjoyed the drift, then powered it up into a wheelie and smoothly rocketed away....at least how it works in a perfect world. For now I'll just endeavor to figure it out. Take care.

[mblaster]

If you are trailbraking into a slow corner and have to gas it at the same time to keep the front end from diving there are some serious problems with your riding or bike or both. Please have your bike checked out and get some coaching before you get hurt.

[aslcbr600]

No way should you be on gas and brake at the same time. That's why you crashed. The gas shifts weight off the front, which makes it easier to lock the front wheel. The ultimate extension I this would be to do a wheely with the front wheel stopped.

 

I have a 675 street triple, I'm 220 lbs but I don't get excessive dive. I don't really know what you mean by excessive dive anyway, the front should dip when you shut the throttle, it preloads the front tyre ready for you I brake hard on it.

 

Time to get you suspension checked out and unlearn some bad habits I think.

 

 

I am not saying my roll off is 100% perfect, however the bike was setup for a 190lbs rider and I am 20lbs shy of that and I only had the bike for about a month before winter hit so I didn't even get it on the track to play with it and dial in the suspension. I practice my throttle roll offs just as much as a smooth and even roll on. Maybe I am just reading it as excessive and it's really not. My CBR had all stock suspension and this 675 is a race suspension so again probably just a mix of interepitation and needed suspension adjustments.

[faffi]

What you heard about smooth roll-out/roll-on together with the brakes just happen for a few split seconds, a tenth or two at most, I reckon. t's just a smooth but very quick transition instead of slam off throttle/slam on brakes. No racer will waste time/distance braking with the throttle pushing the rear wheel.

[mckeann]

JD Honda, If the corner or manoeuvre is that slow that you need first gear, try slipping the clutch. Accelerating and braking really is a bad idea.

[JDHonda]

If you are trailbraking into a slow corner and have to gas it at the same time to keep the front end from diving there are some serious problems with your riding or bike or both. Please have your bike checked out and get some coaching before you get hurt.

 

Yes sir, I agree with you, although I think that while I need to have an optimum setup for my person concerning the suspension, it was indeed my poor execution that precipitated the whole event. I must say that these frank discussions we can have here do help one to be able to assess a given situation, take it apart and understand better the cause-and-effect actions we perform. You are right, trying to compensate for an irritating [to me] characteristic of my bike, by making ill-conceived, and just plain wrong, inputs to its operation, is just a bad idea. Will definitely work at developing a different habit than that. Coaching to me is a bit af a paradox; if we get truly outstanding coaching from CSS [we do], geared towards becoming faster, more successful on the track, and we then take some of those learned behaviours [i.e. trailbraking] to the street, do we then need a coach to help us learn skills that run in contrast to excelling at Trackday?? I suppose that's why I enjoy, and take something from each of, CLASS schools, and CSS, and SBTT [our local track vendor], and MSF. But it sometimes can be tricky to play something both ways, at least to me, which is my mistake; you enter corners or big sweepers you know can be fun, and you don't keep in mind there can be sand gravel, stopped cars, high wind, black ice, dew, metal manhole covers, those ridiculous plastic pedestrian strips [pedestrians slip on those], etc. etc. etc. It is why I said that in reality, I do not enjoy having a street bike, but in having one, and using one, I want, and know that I need, my skills to be excellent. It is a setback to know that they weren't. Thanks much for the input.

[JDHonda]

JD Honda, If the corner or manoeuvre is that slow that you need first gear, try slipping the clutch. Accelerating and braking really is a bad idea.

 

Actually, yes, at slow city corners that's often what I do. I'm beginning to understand that IS a bad idea [and my first clue was....]. Thank you, sir.

[mckeann]

Also, in more constructive machine tips, can you have the bike remapped, or the map updated to make it less snatchy?? Also, I would personally junk the quick action throttle, if it makes it snatchier to put on a wee bit throttle.