How To Hang Off?

[Stroker]

I rode a friend's bike yesterday.I found - I achieved the same lean angle when seated upright and when i kinda hung off.How do i properly hang off? A sequence of instructions please.

 

What i did - Braked, downshifted, ( was a right turn ) got right cheek off, countersteered and leaned the bike in.Was a little messy.I think i charged the turn.I don't have a bike to practice with, so i have very little seat time.

 

However, my friend said i leaned the bike the same whether i hung off or not, and there was half a foot to go before the pegs scraped.How do i confidently go to max lean while hanging and also when upright?

[tmckeen]

Why are you so concerned about achieving "max lean" ?? I don't think anyone on these forum's would recommend that as a goal on public road's, or even on a race track for that matter. A number of the techniques and skills taught by CSS are for the express purpose of using less lean angle.

 

As for your questions, How you get there is really a intangible question, it's like asking "how do I overcome my fear of heights" or "How do I talk to women", the only difference between leaning the bike 15 degrees and 60 degrees is in your head.

 

Troubleshooting body position is much easier with some photographs of what it is your doing, but shifting you cheek off matters little if your upper body isn't hung off as that is where most of you body weight is, you could in fact be "crossed up" and causing more harm then good. The key is a good solid lock-on with your outside leg so you can hang your upper body off to the inside without supporting yourself with the handlebars. I've found a good way to see the real world results of hanging off has on your lean angle is on long sweeping medium speed turn's like freeway interchanges, once your in the turn and your lean angle is set and your locked onto the tank, hang your upper body off more and more and see how much you have to stand the bike up to maintain the same line, you don't need to be at extreme lean angles or speeds to notice the difference

 

 

Tyler

[ktk_ace]

im guessing he hasnt read the book or seen the dvd...

[Stroker]

I could only lock my upper thigh, it was a standard.I want to hit max lean as a confidence building measure, not as a rule.I have read the books and seen the dvd.It tried leaning it at an isolated spot, but there were fallen leaves on the ground so i didn't push it.

 

I get my turning done using as little lean as possible.We have bad roads and there is a lot of dust on them.I want to learn how to lean it though.Might not use it, but want to learn.

[ktk_ace]

still skeptical ...

 

why would you want to lean on bad condition roads ??

[Stroker]

The only road i could practice on had a few fallen leaves on it.Otherwise, it is good tarmac.Like i said, i want to be able to lean the bike, regardless of whether i can use it right away or not.

[ktk_ace]

The only road i could practice on had a few fallen leaves on it.Otherwise, it is good tarmac.Like i said, i want to be able to lean the bike, regardless of whether i can use it right away or not.

 

i regularly cream people on roads because they want to use max lean angle and not the optimum way to carry themselves and the bike thru the corner.

 

If you understand 10% of the book, u'll be practicing much more than just using up your lean angles imho.

 

still skeptical imho that you hav read and undersstood the book/dvd

[Hotfoot]

The only road i could practice on had a few fallen leaves on it.Otherwise, it is good tarmac.Like i said, i want to be able to lean the bike, regardless of whether i can use it right away or not.

 

i regularly cream people on roads because they want to use max lean angle and not the optimum way to carry themselves and the bike thru the corner.

 

If you understand 10% of the book, u'll be practicing much more than just using up your lean angles imho.

 

still skeptical imho that you hav read and undersstood the book/dvd

 

 

Easy there, everyone has different priorities in their riding. Keep in mind, lean angle is one of the things that can tie up a lot of a rider's attention. It is, in fact, one of the four standard Survival Reaction triggers - see page 3 in A Twist of the Wrist II.

 

So, ktk_ace, although it may not be an issue for you, in your riding, at this moment, it may be taking up enough of Stroker's attention that it must be handled before he is willing to look at other things. That is an important aspect of the individualized coaching at the school - if there is some particular thing absorbing all or most of a rider's attention, that thing must be addressed before he/ she will have any real interest in learning anything else.

 

Your point about using up all available lean angle NOT being optimum is well taken, but every rider is different, and our fears/priorities/skillset are not only different from each other but also changing as we learn new things about controlling a motorcycle! This is a friendly forum so please do try to be patient and let's help Stroker sort through this concern.

[Hotfoot]

I rode a friend's bike yesterday.I found - I achieved the same lean angle when seated upright and when i kinda hung off.How do i properly hang off? A sequence of instructions please.

 

What i did - Braked, downshifted, ( was a right turn ) got right cheek off, countersteered and leaned the bike in.Was a little messy.I think i charged the turn.I don't have a bike to practice with, so i have very little seat time.

 

However, my friend said i leaned the bike the same whether i hung off or not, and there was half a foot to go before the pegs scraped.How do i confidently go to max lean while hanging and also when upright?

 

You mention that you got your butt off to the side, what about your head and shoulders? Where did they end up in relation to the center of the windscreen? The idea is to get your body's center of mass off to the side, so that you can reduce the lean angle of the bike, which helps your overall traction - or allows you to get through the same turn faster without running out of lean angle.

 

A very common and very typical error is for a rider to hang their butt WAY off to the inside, but then cross head and shoulders back over the bike, ending up with no real change in the position of the center of mass. We call this being "crossed up" on the bike. If you were turning left, and your butt was off to the left but your head was to the RIGHT of the center of the windscreen, that would be a crossed up position and your lean angle could end up being the same as if you didn't hang off at all.

 

Another consideration as you experiment with hanging off - some riders can lean the bike to a certain lean angle comfortably and they consistently lean it to that point. But, when they start hanging off, their head is now down and to the inside - and sometimes that makes then FEEL like they are leaned over more (probably because their head is closer to the ground than before!) so they are suddenly not willing to lean the bike over as far as they were before - or they want to brace the inside arm to hold themselves up. It's a different sensation and a different point point of view (literally) so it takes a bit of getting used to! Just something to be aware of as you play around with hanging off.

[faffi]

I don't think you can force yourself into leaning further. As HF just mentioned, it will fire SR big time. Personally, I've suffered enough slides and an unexpected get-off over the past 3 seasons to make me cautious. Where I used to just throw the bike on its side and expect the tyres to stick - and put a foot down of the tyres would slide too much - I'm not willing to push as hard these days. Instead, I envision myself losing traction and fall down. So I corner a bit slower at a pace where I am comfortable. Getting old enough that the ego doesn't have to be pampered with zero cihicken strips helps as well

 

The best way to get comfy carrying more lean, which means more speed, is with tuition on a track. If that's not available, I would suggest you focus on one thing and learn one thing at the time. In other words, I would suggest you do not practice both a change in riding position and trail braking and lean at the same time. The sensible thing would be to find a good, natural and relaxed riding position and let that comfort slowly allow you to ride faster and faster. But if lean is your biggest priority, I'd suggest sitting perfectly neutral on the bike and ride the same course repeately, upping the speed a tiny fraction at the time as you get comfy. Do not force your pace as it will only slow your progress.

[Stroker]

To be honest, i could make only three passes or so of the turn.I got my upper body down, as in diagonally downward into the ground.The first time, i sat upright and took the turn at like 80kph.The second time, a bit of attention was taken up getting my bum off, so i was on the brakes longer and did the turn at 60 or so and went wide a bit.The last time, i entered slower, but got the upper body diagonally down.how much i don't know.My friend said this time there was like 5 inches between the ground and the pegs, which was slightly better than the previous two.

 

If i had a bike to practice with, my questions would be fewer.Without a bike, i have to ask others who have one.WRT max lean, i aim to get there because in doing so i would have to perfect all the lean in between upright and max lean, plus the accompanying throttle control, body positioning, trail braking and what not.

 

I am not one of those guys wanting to hang off for show.

[faffi]

Personally, I would not try to reach max lean on a borrowed bike. A rented bike, like on a CSS riding school, is better to crash than your friend's bike You need practice, and that takes time and mileage. Most street accidents happen with fresh riders on unfamiliar bikes, but even seasoned riders are far more likely to end up in a spill with a bike new to them. On a school, however, the risk is reduced through proper tuition.

[ktk_ace]

The only road i could practice on had a few fallen leaves on it.Otherwise, it is good tarmac.Like i said, i want to be able to lean the bike, regardless of whether i can use it right away or not.

 

i regularly cream people on roads because they want to use max lean angle and not the optimum way to carry themselves and the bike thru the corner.

 

If you understand 10% of the book, u'll be practicing much more than just using up your lean angles imho.

 

still skeptical imho that you hav read and undersstood the book/dvd

 

 

Easy there, everyone has different priorities in their riding. Keep in mind, lean angle is one of the things that can tie up a lot of a rider's attention. It is, in fact, one of the four standard Survival Reaction triggers - see page 3 in A Twist of the Wrist II.

 

So, ktk_ace, although it may not be an issue for you, in your riding, at this moment, it may be taking up enough of Stroker's attention that it must be handled before he is willing to look at other things. That is an important aspect of the individualized coaching at the school - if there is some particular thing absorbing all or most of a rider's attention, that thing must be addressed before he/ she will have any real interest in learning anything else.

 

Your point about using up all available lean angle NOT being optimum is well taken, but every rider is different, and our fears/priorities/skillset are not only different from each other but also changing as we learn new things about controlling a motorcycle! This is a friendly forum so please do try to be patient and let's help Stroker sort through this concern.

 

Noted .

 

I apologise for being a bit impatient.

 

I'm thinking that the no lean bike at the CSS will benefit Stroker greatly if he can attend school.

[Stroker]

That's the problem.I cannot.Which is why i ask noobish questions here.

[Lnewqban]

If i had a bike to practice with, my questions would be fewer.Without a bike, i have to ask others who have one.WRT max lean, i aim to get there because in doing so i would have to perfect all the lean in between upright and max lean, plus the accompanying throttle control, body positioning, trail braking and what not.

Stroker,

 

I believe that your first priority should be buying a little motorcycle, even by yourself or with the help of other friends with similar interest.

 

I wouldn't recommend a scooter, due to the smaller diameter of the tires, but something as small as a 50 cc with 16" tires could teach you many important skills, basically everything contained in the ATOTW books and DVD.

My first bike was a 50 cc moped with which I battled in the traffic of a big city, skidding, falling and learning much of what I know today.

 

The reduced speed of this bike shouldn't be a problem for you experimenting with extreme leaning.

The lateral forces induced by any turn are inversely proportional to the radius; hence, very small radius at moderate speed will achieve high lateral forces.

 

Decent tires and clean and dry asphalt are important.

I would recommend only leaning your upper body with the bike during the first times of practice, until you get familiar with the feeling related to the forces of turning and the traction capability of the tires.

Later on, you could start practicing hanging off, with which you should be able to achieve higher speeds for the same turns.

[ktk_ace]

That's the problem.I cannot.Which is why i ask noobish questions here.

 

Is a KTM duke 125 within your budget? I'd say go for it because it costs 3 times the amount in india over in my country because of taxes.

[Stroker]

The 200 is sold here, but it is out of my budget.They sell a version of the Yamaha r125 bored to 150cc, called the r15.I might pick up a used one of those if i can stretch.That is the perfect bike for me.Great brakes,handling,fully faired,knee recesses,the lot.It is in essence a detuned track bike.Will tune it and then learn on it.

 

Till then, i remain a noob.

[faffi]

Rossi started out riding 50cc scooters up and down the coastal roads near his home, practicing for years. One would assume things can be learned on them from that.

[Alfred.Rodriguez]

I could only lock my upper thigh, it was a standard.I want to hit max lean as a confidence building measure, not as a rule.I have read the books and seen the dvd.It tried leaning it at an isolated spot, but there were fallen leaves on the ground so i didn't push it.

 

I get my turning done using as little lean as possible.We have bad roads and there is a lot of dust on them.I want to learn how to lean it though.Might not use it, but want to learn.

 

You could use MAX lean angles wether you HANG OFF the bike or not... Whether you are cornering in 100-mph or just 20-mph.

 

For max lean angle in high speed cornering (while hanging off) - you have track riding. For max lean angle in low speed - Google for "motogymkhana."

 

But as others have said - why would you use MAX LEAN angle?

 

Something to think about - the better rider is one who can take a corner at a higher speed with lesser lean angle...

 

PS: You can actually hang off and drag knee even in a confined space in a parking lot... But what is the point?

[Alfred.Rodriguez]

The 200 is sold here, but it is out of my budget.They sell a version of the Yamaha r125 bored to 150cc, called the r15.I might pick up a used one of those if i can stretch.That is the perfect bike for me.Great brakes,handling,fully faired,knee recesses,the lot.It is in essence a detuned track bike.Will tune it and then learn on it.

 

Till then, i remain a noob.

 

Stroker

 

If you are really keen in achieving MAX lean angles and/or hanging off and/or dragging knee - Id recommend starting with smaller bikes, so, you get the feel of things, then progress up the ladder of higher displacements. Much so - less damage/hurt if you make a mistake.

 

Here is one - the Honda APE:

 

http://www.google.co.jp/search?hl=en&gl=US&q=honda+ape&redir_esc=&um=1&ie=UTF-8&tbm=isch&source=og&sa=N&tab=wi&ei=yIFTUa7uNcrjkQXA_IHQBQ&biw=602&bih=792&sei=z4FTUdn7LcTilAWN0YGwAg

 

Small, indeed - but mastering it is not a simple task. There are even categories for these bikes in racing.

 

As for how much lean angle can be used, WITHOUT hanging off, check this out:

 

 

This is a genre of riding called "motogymkhana," quite getting popular in the UK, Japan and some areas in the US.

 

Have fun!!

 

[tmckeen]

I think perhaps you need to rephrase your goal Stroker, I'm not sure if its just a slight disconnect in the translation or what but when you state your goal as "Achieve Max Lean" you sound like you want to push the bike exactly to 100% which comes off as rather dangerous and disconcerting for a lot of the folks around here, but it sounds like your actual goal is more like " Become more comfortable with greater lean angles, and improve my confidence at lean on the motorcycle" that is a goal most of the people on these forums understand and probably share. Now if you think that making once really good pass around a corner and grinding some hard parts on the pavement will be some kind of magic pill for you confidence I'm afraid you might be mistaken. Like everyone else said you just need to practice, there really is no substitute for seat time.

 

Tyler

[Stroker]

Oh no, you have stated it correctly.I intend to become more comfortable leaning, and keep getting comfy until i reach the limit.I suppose this whole " Max Lean " business has people thinking i intend to rush into some showy leaning.That is not the case.

 

Think of it this way.I want to scale the Everest.To prepare for that, i would have to climb a lot of other mountains many times.Max lean is my Everest.

[anthem]

However- you do realize you won't know where "max lean" is until you go down. And that "max lean" is dependent upon more factors than just the bike. It depends on type of tires, what type of tires, temperature of said tires, surface traction, where your weight is when that lean is attained, speed, etc. . . So its not a quantifiable entity to just get to one particular lean angle. .

 

I think you're better off trying to say - I'd like to take this corner faster and how to go about doing it, than saying, I want to lean the bike over more. Because who knows - you might just be at 'max lean' right now for all anybody knows.

[Alfred.Rodriguez]

However- you do realize you won't know where "max lean" is until you go down. And that "max lean" is dependent upon more factors than just the bike. It depends on type of tires, what type of tires, temperature of said tires, surface traction, where your weight is when that lean is attained, speed, etc. . . So its not a quantifiable entity to just get to one particular lean angle. .

 

 

For general purposes, and it near ideal conditions - dry, warmed up tires, etc.

 

a majority of production sports bike on sports radials have a MAX lean of 45-degs; some can push it to 48-deg, but that is risking it... 60-deg and above are usually achievable with slicks (of course, adjustments to the suspension will be required).

 

[Stroker]

I would be content with 35-40.I wouldn't go 45 for a while.