Hanging Off - What The Bsb And Wsb Riders Tell Me....

[Hawk862]

Hi guys,

 

I've completed level 3 at CSS in the UK a few years back, and have always found that anything more than one cheek off the seat I lose connection with the bike (especially my outside leg off the tank) and I start to feel not in control as much anymore.

 

Just been over to Spain and I managed to get some track time with Neil Hodgson and Steve Parrish. Both of them told me "I need to get more weight off the bike, almost double what I'm doing now", eg almost my whole bum off the bike. I did this for most of the day at Cartagena, and while both Neil and Steve tell me what I was doing was now more correct, I did at times feel like I was going to fall off because so much of my weight is off the bike. I also found it really difficult to change gears coming in/out of right handed turns.

 

I think going forward I'll stick to my old ways and the CSS ways of staying as connected with the bike as possible, but just wondering why the BSB/WSB guys have the different style and what the benefits for them are?

 

Cheers

 

Dave

[ktk_ace]

thats the hardware trap imho...

 

BSB and WSBK bikes are EXTREMELY tuned to their riders , and unless you are willing to spend 2-10X the bike price , then really you can forget about it .

 

Skills taught at the CSBKS however only cost 1/3 of the bike price and imho you still can be faster than 90% of people who havnt been to the school.

 

Its cost effective if you see it that way.

[faffi]

You see riders hanging off more and more, often with the elbows still close the ground after getting the bike closer to upright for acceleration. Even old school riders like Rossi have had to adapt. It may be worth half a second per lap - Keith Code or some of the instructors may know for sure - which is vital if you want to become world champion but of little value to the average person. In fact, the average person will - like you - be so uncomfortable that speed will be lower than with a more moderate riding style.

 

Also, there are many ways that can work. If you look at Lorenzo, he is utterly calm and smooth and looks almost slow. If you look at Stoner, he was very, very physical. Both a world champions.

[Lnewqban]

.......I did at times feel like I was going to fall off because so much of my weight is off the bike. I also found it really difficult to change gears coming in/out of right handed turns........

 

Dave,

 

Work on your upper body and head instead.

 

Being heavier and more flexible to be moved away from the center line of the bike without compromising your anchoring to it, those body parts have much more influence in offsetting the weight than a few inches of butt off.

 

In order to put things in perspective, take a look at these:

 

http://forums.superbikeschool.com/index.php?showtopic=3303&st=20#entry26514

 

http://forums.superb...opic=3324&st=40

 

Best !

[Cobie Fair]

Rossi, Lorenzo, and Stoner don't hang off as much as say Marquez, but that is partly just what the riders do with the lower body--they virtually all get the upper body over and down.

 

Too much lower body off and what's left to hold on with? How well does the bike like it when holding to the bars?

 

Remeber, these guys are lean atheletes, so they aren't hanging that miuch weight off, and most train like heck to be fit so its no big deal to hang off and hold on with the legs.

[faffi]

You often see several hang off far enough that they no longer have contact with the outseide footpeg as well. It's pretty spectacular, but not for everybody.

[tmckeen]

you also can't overlook the increased amount of G force these guys are subjected to which allows them to achieve such massive hang off with almost no lock on the tank. When trying to hang your upper body off at a moderate pace you need a very good lock to support it, but when theres nearly 2G's of force sucking you down into the corner the rules change slightly

 

Side note, I believe Marquez is going to force the riding style in MotoGP to change, within a year or two I expect regular elbow dragging will become the new norm

[Jasonzilla]

While you DO need to get the weight down and to the inside, Cobie pretty much covered the big stuff. The GP bikes have MASSIVE lean, but it doesn't require the riders to lean that far off. I thought Marquez would have to change his BP in a big way, but it didn't really take that much adjustment and he's doing well. If you usually lean that far off, you're going to have to hold on some other way. It'll also cause you to tense up and you'll lose focus on things like locking properly into the tank and maintaining good BP.

 

There's also the task of getting back to the other side of the bike if you're doing a switchback, or getting back on the bike if you're going onto a straight. The farther off you are, the more energy you'll have to spend getting back on the bike or over to the other side.

 

I've heard Cobie say a number of times how little he gets off the bike, and I've always taught MAX is half a cheek before it becomes counter-productive. You're talking about comfort but haven't mentioned your times from that day. If they increased, that technique isn't for you. If they improved, you may need to try adjusting your body to get more used to it. If there's no change in times but you become uncomfortable, skip it and go back to what's comfortable. Sometimes that's all you'll get from a new technique; comfort.

 

When getting advice from big named riders, the question to ask yourself is: would I rather have Rossi or his coach teaching me how to ride?

[faffi]

For us to be critical towards towards the way world champions ride is pretty bold. To say it will not suit Joe Average is one thing, but to say they are wrong when it brings them results is something else. Way back when, Ruggia used to drag his elbow in 250 racing. That must be about 20 years ago. It didn't cause a break-through then. But I will not be surprised if elbow dragging becomes the norm pretty quickly in many classes of racing - if it helps with lap times, riders will adapt.

[noamkrief]

The more you hang off, the more you shift the C.G. and the more upright the bike is during a turn.

The more upright the bike is, the better the suspension works since it's only 100% efficient at 0 degree lean angle. Also, you can keep the edge of your tire cooler if you're racing for 40 minutes I guess.

 

Like others have mentioned. Those motoGP guys are athletes! They are working their ass off hanging off like that. They look relaxed because they are at the gym 4 hours a day and have amazing stamina and weigh less than my girlfriend who is a buck ten soaking wet!

 

Also, as McKeen said - at 2 lateral G's, and 63 degrees lean, you are being SUCKED into the bike in a major way, so hanging off requires less work.

 

Main thing with hanging off is WHEN to do it. I'm working on that as well. You can't hang off like a monkey through-out the turn. There are difference phases in the turn which you will be hanging off more than other parts of the corner. Play with it, feel it out. And be ready to sweat - it's hard work...

[Hansi]

Whenever you get the opportunity, ask your riding buddy to sit on the bike while you are standing in front of it holding it upright for him/her.

 

Ask him/her to move out his/her butt all the way and hang of "80's style" with the head still behind the windscreen.

 

Then ask him/her to move the butt to the center of the seat or maybe half cheek off. And lean out with the upper body instead.

 

But make sure he/she is careful, or you will drop the bike on the ground...

[Cobie Fair]

Marquez is spending a lot of time hanging off, and is doing incredibly well first year in Moto GP. But...he has also crashed a lot, and wonder if he'd trade some of his body off the bike for being able to ease up his work load a little. Additionally, these guys are young, super fit and don't weigh much. I'm pretty much none of that, but that's a personal problem (I'm going to hit the gym--in fact, started yesterday).

[Stroker]

Aww cobie you are not that bad.And i don't think Moto GP levels of hanging off are healthy to start with.Working on that after you have most of your other issues sorted out is better.

[Cobie Fair]

I'm really going to be interested to see what happens with Marquez in a year or so. I don't think Pedrosa hangs off as much as he did initially either.

[EricG]

In the spirit of this thread, I've got a question... I'm 6'4", 285lbs and ride a K1300s. I've tried some preliminary moves at hanging off, but I've found that any significant weight shift really messes up my turns and lean angles. At most, shifting my torso to the inside (effectively 60/40) and letting my inside knee come out is about as far as I can go without making the bike feel very awkward. It's includes a highway transition (one highway to another) off ramp listed at 30 that I took at 90.

 

Is it just me, or is it that my weight being almost 50% of the bike makes it that much more sensitive to weight transfer? Reason I'm going there is I tried my son's Yamaha 600 and even 'normal' riding seems like a wobbling top. Seems to me my weight really upset the balance of his bike making it scary for me to ride at almost any speed.

 

And if the aforementioned is true, is what I'm doing now about as far as I can reasonable take it on the street? Haven't done a track day yet & going to the Level 1 class at Thunderbolt in August.

[Lnewqban]

Actually, your longer legs and arms and your weight should make the technique more effective and save more bike's lean angle.

 

As you feel very awkward, you should not try doing it on the street until you properly learn it at the track.

For street riding, I don't hang-off because I don't see a reason to do it within legal speeds.

 

Check out these two videos and note the lack of involuntary input onto the handlebar:

 

 

 

Next time to ride the Yamaha, try locking your lower body against the tank with both knees and relax your hands' grip as much as you can.

If that is not sufficient, tuck your upper body and you should feel a difference.

[Hotfoot]

Compared to other types of bikes, sportbikes can feel twitchy and top heavy and very reactive. They steer very quickly and even a TINY bit of unwanted bar input will significantly affect steering. The weight shift alone should not upset the bike at all (although it may make the bike feel as though it is turning in more quickly/easily), however if shifting your weight way over causes you to put ANY pressure on the bars, or makes you hang on them or use them to pull yourself across the bike, it will absolutely affect the handling, and can make the bike feel wobbly or unpredictable.

 

Does hanging off a lot make you tense in your upper body? If tension results in stiffness in the arms or shoulders, that also will affect handling AND can distort your "feel" by making bumps or steering wobbles feel even more dramatic.

 

The solution is to find stability in your lower body. Getting a good lock on the bike with your legs/knees/hips will allow you to relax the upper body and keep pressure off the bars. You might find that hanging off LESS gets you an overall better result.

[faffi]

Pardon my French, but how the f%¤& do you manage to move your body without holding on to the bars? I tried it on my old Z650, and there is not a chance. I can stand up, but I cannot move sideways without supporting myself on the handlebars. Although I cannot tell for sure, I would imagine it to be even more difficult on a bike where your bum is higher than the handlebars, although I haven't tried it. Nor does this matter to me as I do not shift my weight other than gently leaning in my torso - I just tried it for kicks - but I'm still intrigued how you can move sideways without using the bars for support.

 

EDIT: Forgot to mention there is way too much friction between my leathers and my saddle to allow sliding with butt on the seat.

[EricG]

I try very hard not to have any force on the bars, checking that my elbows are relaxed and hands as 'free' as they can be. Honestly all I do is lean in towards the mirror and open the inner knee. The other is locked as much as I can. No body position shift at all, and that why I'm asking. Knd of like the instru otr was doing while seated in the chair.

 

Thanks for the replies, I guess I'll have to wait for class to figure it out. Thought it might be something sime & stupid on my part. Guess I'll just keep riding straight up unti then. Also can't help but recall images I've seen from Mullhand back in the 70s.