Steering Questions

[Stroker]

Read Twist 2 again and have a few questions.

 

Quick flick - Here is what i understand

 

1. Off the throttle on the brakes.

 

2. Off the brakes, one cheek out. ( or out while breaking )

 

3. Pull on one side push the other side of the bars.

 

4. Bike falls in, apply throttle.

 

Is this correct? What is your sequence?

 

Pivot Steering - basically apply pressure with the outside foot on the outside peg while you hang off?

 

How do you do this?

[bradvanhorn]

This is my sequence. It can happen pretty fast; sometimes near simultaneous.

 

* On the gas

 

* Knees lock on tank

 

* Shift body position/cheek off the seat

 

* Roll off gas

 

* Apply brakes

 

* Release brakes

 

* Inside knee swings out

 

* Push inside bar

 

* When bike is at lean and on desired line, roll on gas

 

 

On a related note, I had been pushing upward and too hard with my outside calf, driving the outside knee up (not in) and it was very tiring. Mikey and James helped me sort this out and now I'm using more modest calf tension and applying a firm inward pressure with the outside knee. This helps me rotate my hips into the turn while staying locked in.

 

From your sequence you indicated moving your butt after roll off/on the brakes. I'll suggest it's better to do this while on the gas if/when possible. The bike is stable on the gas so moving your body at that time should be less disruptive. Moving while off the gas/on the brakes can lead to extra, unwelcome behavior from the bike.

 

[Stroker]

Thanks.Thoughts on pivot steering?

[ThomasDark]

The pivot steering idea is simply to obtain a firm(er) connection between your outside leg and the bike. I like to slightly lengthen my ankle and lower leg using my calf and then flex my quad to "lock" my leg to the tank. From that platform you can more quickly and precisely execute the "push/pull" on the bars (I find the push to be enough so I don't pull on the outside bar) that initiates the quick turn lean-in.

 

Does that help?

[Cobie Fair]

One other point, unless I missed it with a quick scan, is come off the brakes when turning quickly.

[ktk_ace]

rate of steer is also important.

 

steer like a slug and you are not going to make it.

[Stroker]

The pivot steering idea is simply to obtain a firm(er) connection between your outside leg and the bike. I like to slightly lengthen my ankle and lower leg using my calf and then flex my quad to "lock" my leg to the tank. From that platform you can more quickly and precisely execute the "push/pull" on the bars (I find the push to be enough so I don't pull on the outside bar) that initiates the quick turn lean-in.

 

Does that help?

 

Ok that was how i understood it.Thanks.

 

Keith mentions steering rate and even has a graph.You know...how Rainey steers in half a sec or less while we take almost 2 secs.How do you guys do? A steady push of about two inches should get me down nicely no?

 

I use half an inch to avoid obstacles.

[ktk_ace]

The pivot steering idea is simply to obtain a firm(er) connection between your outside leg and the bike. I like to slightly lengthen my ankle and lower leg using my calf and then flex my quad to "lock" my leg to the tank. From that platform you can more quickly and precisely execute the "push/pull" on the bars (I find the push to be enough so I don't pull on the outside bar) that initiates the quick turn lean-in.

 

Does that help?

 

 

 

Ok that was how i understood it.Thanks.

 

Keith mentions steering rate and even has a graph.You know...how Rainey steers in half a sec or less while we take almost 2 secs.How do you guys do? A steady push of about two inches should get me down nicely no?

 

I use half an inch to avoid obstacles.

 

nope, it takes sampling and every bike and rider is different.

 

Start at 75% or less of your capabilities . practice makes perfect

[noamkrief]

Quick flick is just the rate that your bike goes from being upright to your target lean angle.

 

So if it takes you 5 seconds from being upright to 35 degree lean angle, that's a SLOWWWWW flick. If it takes you 0.5 seconds, that's a quick flick.

 

Technique? Countersteer the ###### out of it hahah!!!

 

For the track, usually slower turns require a higher rate of "flick" and faster turns require slower rate... My 2 cents.

[Cobie Fair]

Fast turns, if one cannot steer quickly, the entry speed is limited, and also in quick transitions. At some of the recent GP's there was some great footage of the top guys turning it very, very, quickly in a fast ess series, and this takes substantial muscle. Noamkrief, I'm not trying to beat up on you mate, but I have literally watched riders crash due to slow steering. And its as or more critical in fast turns, because so much track is eaten up. Again, don't take my word on this, do your own experiments. Come and ride the NO B/S bike any time. Or, another experiment you can do is get the bike up to speed on an open stretch, let go of the left bar, hold the right with just 2 fingers (just to keep the throttle on) and see what can be accomplished with just body weight. If you can, notice what the front end does while you move your body--it will counter-steer. Let us know what you notice. Best,Cobie

[Stroker]

I had some difficulties quick flicking.I tried to counter steer hard and it upset the bike.Though i did change direction.

 

I tried to progressively push on the bars but it was not satisfactory.I have no way of monitoring how much i am actually leaning.Should i do a push and pull using both hands? I am trying to get the quick flick without hanging off.

[faffi]

Perhaps your bike's suspension is too soft, be that regarding springs or damping or both? That would easily upset it if the inputs are strong or ragged.

[Stroker]

Umm the suspension is quite basic without any adjustment.Think a 2000 $ bike new.

[Lnewqban]

I had some difficulties quick flicking.I tried to counter steer hard and it upset the bike.Though i did change direction.

 

I tried to progressively push on the bars but it was not satisfactory.I have no way of monitoring how much i am actually leaning.Should i do a push and pull using both hands? I am trying to get the quick flick without hanging off.

 

Check out this quote from Hotfoot:

 

You can apply a great deal of force to the bar to turn the bike quickly - the quick steer is controlled by how HARD you push on the bar, not how fast. A fast "punch" to the bars can tend to upset the bike and give you a less accurate steering result.

 

As said above, you are very unlikely to lose traction just from quick-turning the bike - UNLESS you are ALSO on the brakes, or you have poor traction such as cold or worn-out tires, or a slick surface.

 

http://forums.superb...801

 

The handlebar is a lever to roll the bike and the front contact patch is your fulcrum or pivot point.

The bike has a natural inertia to roll; hence, stronger force is needed to overcome that inertia: the quicker the roll, the greater the needed force (moment of inertia).

http://en.wikipedia....ment_of_inertia

On top of that, the faster the tires rotate, the greater their resistance to change steering direction and to roll over is (gyroscopic effect).

http://en.wikipedia....roscopic_effect

 

Quick flick means rolling the bike over as quick as possible, so you waste the minimum possible time describing the wider circles that correspond to the range of lean angles from zero (vertical) to max.

In other words, you have to lean less to negotiate a curve; hence, the suspension will work better.

http://forums.superb...498

 

The angle that the handlebar reaches during counter-steering determines how fast the quick flick is.

Why? Because the radius of turn determines the centripetal force, which is the only thing that induces the roll: less turning radius = more centripetal force.

Many riders confuse quick flick with a quick punch to the handlebar, and that is wrong: the front contact patch, the suspension and the frame need some little time to adjust and all of them love smooth inputs.

Because of all that, the counter-steering input should be smooth, strong and covering as much angle as possible in as little time as possible: the resistance of the bike to that change should be your feed-back.

From TT2:

"Turning it too quick will shake the bike or wind you up on the inside."

[Hotfoot]

Nice post, Lnewqban! Thought I'd share my own experience from coaching at Barber - I really LOVE quickturning the bike, it's just FUN, and Barber has some great high speed chicanes. The illustrious Pete, Assistant Chief Riding Coach (who has a gorgeous and perfect riding style, BTW) followed me on a fast lap and pointed out to me that in one fast corner I was turning the bike with such enthusiasm that I was making it shake. In my next session I paid close attention and realized that I was pushing on the bar to turn the bike, but then instead of just relaxing (ending the push) when I reached my desired lean angle, I was making some extra effort to "stop" the bar which meant I was sort of grabbing the bar - maybe even pulling it back a little - at the end of my steering action. It was a totally unnecessary extra action and only appeared when I was riding fast and thus trying to quickturn more aggressively. It was somewhat rough handling of the bike and not the ideal way to get maxiumum traction through the corner.

 

To fix it, I just made a conscious effort in that turn to press on the bar, then quickly taper off the pressure when I reached the desired lean angle - instead of making that unneeded extra effort to "stop" the bar.

 

Every time the pace goes up, new challenges appear, so it never gets dull!

[faffi]

As a thought to the limits of quick steering - if you put a bloke able to bench press 700 lbs and let him use his power unrestrained, would the tyre - and chassis - still be able to deal with it? I know you cannot get all power through the bars since even anchoring butt and feet will not give enough resistance, but such a person could still inflict a massive amount of force to the steering system.

[Stroker]

So how do you guys do it exactly?

[ktk_ace]

So how do you guys do it exactly?

 

1% talent , 5 % education, 94% practice @ 75% of your current abilities

[Hotfoot]

As a thought to the limits of quick steering - if you put a bloke able to bench press 700 lbs and let him use his power unrestrained, would the tyre - and chassis - still be able to deal with it? I know you cannot get all power through the bars since even anchoring butt and feet will not give enough resistance, but such a person could still inflict a massive amount of force to the steering system.

 

I've heard of riders bending the bars. I think the answer to that depends a LOT on the particular bike and its goemtery and components. Most road racing bikes are set up to turn relatively easily, but a cruiser or touring bike might be set up for more stability in a straight line which means it take more force to get it to turn. For example, I rode a Ducati 999 that had an oval steering head - you could set it up for street riding, or track riding. On the street setting, I found it quite difficult to turn the bike, it took a lot of force, and on the track setting (steeper steering angle) it was MUCH easier.

 

On some bikes, like older Ninja 250s, the chassis had a lot of flex, so if you tried steering the bike REALLY aggressively at high speeds, the chassis flex would be so unsettling that you'd be disinclined to try it any faster.

 

So, I think on older bikes/tires there WAS a big issue that if you turned it too quickly the bike would wobble, but I think the modern tires and chassis design can take a lot of abuse.

[Hotfoot]

So how do you guys do it exactly?

 

If you want to turn left, push forward (not down) on the left bar. When the bike reaches the desired lean angle, stop pushing.

 

That's it.

 

If you want the bike to lean over more quickly, push harder (not faster) on the bar.

 

Some people prefer, for a left turn, push on the left bar AND pull on the right bar, or just pull on the right bar; that works, too.

 

This is covered in detail in A Twist of the Wrist in Chapter 9. The chapter is only a few pages long and devoted ENTIRELY to this question, well worth reading. If you don't have the book, you can now download it instantly as an eBook from Amazon and elsewhere. (I'm a big fan of the eBook because you can get it instantly, it's very inexpensive, and once you have it electronically you can SEARCH the book with keywords, and I love that feature.)

[faffi]

Thanks, Hotfoot

[Cobie Fair]

I had some difficulties quick flicking.I tried to counter steer hard and it upset the bike.Though i did change direction.

 

I tried to progressively push on the bars but it was not satisfactory.I have no way of monitoring how much i am actually leaning.Should i do a push and pull using both hands? I am trying to get the quick flick without hanging off.

 

Steering quickly and upsetting the bike has been a common issue we have seen. We could probably fix 90% of it with a well done steering drill, which we could do if you could make it to where we are doing a school. Meaning, if I know you are coming, I would just squeeze you in, no charge, to do this.

 

In the final analysis, its way better to be quick and rough, than slow and smooth, any one would think so if he managed to dodge a car by steering quickly (saved me from a head on, and then another impact right after).

 

You can certainly push and pull, the bars are connected, but usually more emphasis on pushing.

 

The reason the bike is upset is unstable lower body forcing too much input with the hands, or tightening up with the hands at the end of steering--again, a trained coach could sort both of these out. The Steering Drill as we call it is one of the most difficult to coach and train coaches on. In our training, a Class II coach has to get personal approval by Keith to pass that exercise.

 

Any chance we could get you to a school location?

 

Best,

Cobie

 

 

[Jasonzilla]

You've added a step by not having your butt hanging off before you even start all of this. The only place you'll see my arse in the seat is on a long straight. It cuts out a step, no matter how insignificant it seems as Van Horn pointed out).

 

I think the three key points to a good quick turn are: a good understanding of the two-step, good reference points, and redundancy. When I went to the Superbike School the first time, I wanted to throw my frickin' helmet across the parking lot after the quick turn drill. It got me nowhere. When I learned the two-step, the quick turning became automatic. Even my instructor knew why I was frustrated. He told me to be patient after the quick turn drill because I was going to learn something that would help things make sense later.

[Stroker]

I read the book and absorbed the theory.I am getting the bike to lean no doubt.I am having trouble seeing how well i am doing it.Besides it was done on a borrowed bike so i had only a half hour or so.My friend mentioned there was about 3-4 inches between the pegs and the ground.

 

I guess i am not satisfied with my quick turn...not that i can't do it at all.

 

Thanks for the input.

[EricG]

Well, I'm a newbie at this, but my 2 cents... I ride a K1300s, which is 560 wet, and I weight close to 300. I am also a power lifter, but that's beside the point. I've owned the bike for a couple of months now, practicing at a local Sears parking lot that is, surprisingly, quite technical. Anyway, I've found that I can very quickly flick the bike on demand, and it's actually quite easy. No real stmfth required.

 

It took me a bit to get used to it, but I basically did a variation of the side-to-side flicking excessive I saw on the UK CSS special. I started out slow, leaning and counter steering side to side, each time going a bit lower and a bit slower speed. Once I got that reasonably comfortable, then started adding corkscrews, kind of like this Japanese police bike competition I found on YouTube. It helped immensely! Not nearly as good as this guy, but I'm working on it... ;-)

 

 

Police Motorcycle Test

 

via McTube for YouTube.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p1j_fxOgdqA