How To Countersteer

[Jaybird180]

Okay, I know that you guys know all about this. I still watch videos, read articles, etc from time to time...I trying to learn and figure this stuff out, which you all have down pat.

 

I thought I'd share a video that I saw that I think is the best (sofar) about how countersteering works. Only thing I think he could have done better during his demonstration is to use cruise control. I'm adding this one to my toolbox.

 

https://youtu.be/nlc1bGPTR3c

 

[Cobie Fair]

I liked the fist on the bar demo...as he said, no way could he pull back.

 

He's not 100% correct on the below 10k part...it's just harder to notice the countersteering.

[Cobie Fair]

Here's a point that comes up in conversation now and again (the above one on does countersteering work at slow speeds).

 

How could a person tell if countersteering was happening, at say less than walking speed, 1-2 mph? Rider is on a bicycle, and it starts tipping over to the right. Which was does the rider turn the bars?

[Jaybird180]

The parking lot demo he did explains a lot. That's the effect of trail. Trail serves to check the roll in your falling bicycle example. I wonder if countersteering would work on a bike with negative trail.

[Cobie Fair]

So if one was falling to the right, tipping over, while going 2 mph on his/her bicycle, which way would one turn the bars--as the first action?

[Jaybird180]

Theoretically to the right, but I've always been told and accepted as true that countersteering doesn't work below a certain speed. I'm open to re-evaluating that.

[tmckeen]

There are for sure some circumstances where a motorcycle does not counter steer, but they are exceptions to the rule.

 

I have found when making a 90 degree turn from a stand still you can feel the bike transition from direct to counter steering. I can initiate a left turn by turning the bars to the left and as I accelerate away adjust the bars back to neutral and then counter steer them to complete the turn. That said you can also negotiate the same turn by rolling forward slightly and counter steering the bike at very slow speed, which will more or less cause it to just fall over and then "catch" the bike with the throttle once you're desired lean is achieved, its exactly the same thing that happens at higher speed, but at very slow speeds the lack of gyroscopic force makes it feel a lot scarier.

[Jaybird180]

 

So if one was falling to the right, tipping over, while going 2 mph on his/her bicycle, which way would one turn the bars--as the first action?

 

I'd forgotten about this video. Any clues here?

 

[Cobie Fair]

JB, point probably already made, but if at 2mph, at the bicycle falls to the right, one turns the bars to the right to catch it--just countersteered.

[Lnewqban]

..........I've always been told and accepted as true that countersteering doesn't work below a certain speed. I'm open to re-evaluating that.

 

You might learn more here:

http://www.tonyfoale.com/Articles/Balance/BALANCE.htm

 

 

[Lnewqban]

.........I wonder if countersteering would work on a bike with negative trail.

 

Have you seen such a thing?

 

Some related experiments here:

http://tonyfoale.com/Articles/RakeEx/RakeEx.htm

[Jaybird180]

Dylan posted an article (somewhere on here) about bicycle design and experimentation. Someone has done a bike with negative trail before and it was stable! I doubt a motorcycle has been done before unless it's a home grown build.

[Jaybird180]

BTW- How'd you embed the video?

[Jaybird180]

 

 

 

This video seems to suggest that a bike in a turn that is accelerated (TC rule #1) will stand up.

 

(Lost in Space Robot Voice)

Error, Will Robinson, Error.

 

Help me out here.

[tmckeen]

Gyroscopic force is whats causing the tiny tire in the video to stand itself back up and I'm pretty sure given enough time the gyroscopic force generated by the wheels of a motorcycle would do the same but It's not significant or fast enough to be considered "standing the bike up"

 

Rolling on the gas adds speed, which adds more gyroscopic force, but it doesn't add enough force to cause the bike to pick itself up out of the corner, that is the result of a steering input.

[Lnewqban]

BTW- How'd you embed the video?

 

Just copy the URL or web address of a particular video and pat it on your post.

 

This video seems to suggest that a bike in a turn that is accelerated (TC rule #1) will stand up.

(Lost in Space Robot Voice)

Error, Will Robinson, Error.

 

Help me out here.

 

The bike will stand up out of balance, unless you increase the balancing moment via increasing the lean angle some via slight counter-steering.

[BikeSpeedman]

Years before even thinking of taking up motorcycling, I was an avid bike racer. In my early days, I read an article about counter steering. I had never heard of it and didn't realize it was happening but I couldn't wait to go try it out. I hopped on my bike and went for a ride. Holy ! I can't believe I never noticed it before.

 

Unlike a motorcycle which is heavy and has heavy wheels, a bike can just be ridden. We're tiny kids when we learn the balancing corrections that Cobie talked about. But by the time we're old enough to think about really working on skills, this stuff is all muscle memory. And I never made the link between balancing and turning until I read the article. In it, I learned these fundamentals of steering a 2 wheeled vehicle:

• When you want to turn right, turn left.
• In the middle of a turn, if you want to decrease the radius, turn farther in the opposite direction of the turn.
• If you want to decrease the radius (or stop turning, turn into the turn.

The funny thing is that learning these explicitly (things which I had done on muscle memory before) vastly improved my cornering. I began descending with much more ease. Going back to the lessons of learning how to balance as a kid, you just kinda do what you need to do without thinking about it. But you balance yourself by wobbling. If you watch a kid ride, at first his wobbles are huge. Then they get better and better until he looks really stable and you can barely tell it's happening. But it's still a reactionary method of control. Having a plan and knowing exactly what makes you turn where you want to turn and how much you want to turn makes you safer, faster, more confident, etc.

 

Anyway, when I started riding motorcycles, what shocked me the most was that people questioned and doubted the way counter steering works. "No, I do this" or "Actually, I turn by ...." Nope. You don't. You counter steer. I found the No BS bike video funny bc I couldn't believe it would take so much effort to convince riders of what they're actually doing.

[khp]

Countersteering - isn't this when you guide the guy behind the counter to the stuff you need?

[Cobie Fair]

KHP--that is the best explanation of countersteering I've ever heard!!!!!

[khp]

KHP--that is the best explanation of countersteering I've ever heard!!!!!

 

Unfortunately that one isn't of my own making - I think I got that from the "Squid purity Test" (warning: long).

[Jaybird180]

 

KHP--that is the best explanation of countersteering I've ever heard!!!!!

 

Unfortunately that one isn't of my own making - I think I got that from the "Squid purity Test" (warning: long).

 

I didn't heed the warning...and I even started taking the test....Oh geez.....(can we say "EL-Seven"?)